Members heartstrings Posted May 26, 2021 Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 Psalm 23:2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:......... From my observations, sheep prefer to lie down in the dirt. Where all they have is grass, they scratch out a bed. When they rise, they immediately defecate and urinate in their bed go about their day and the next night go back to the holes and lie down again. The feces carries the eggs of whatever parasites the sheep may have, which then hatch, climb the blades of grass and are reingested to complete their life cycle. The parasites feed on the sheeps blood and nutrients and make them sick. The more they eat this, the more their health is compromised. So I can see how a large flock of sheep could foul up an good pasture in a hurry. I don't know much about Biblical shepherds but I'm thinking that, in a semi-arid land such as the land of Israel, a "green pasture" would be too precious a commodity for a shepherd to waste by letting the sheep bed down in one. So I'm thinking that Biblical shepherds, wise ones, would lead the flock to a barren area to lie down so as not to ruin the good, clean grass. Even though we are inclined to lie down in the "dirt" as well, God has enough good pasture, that his children don't need to lie in the filth of the World. He leads us to a green pasture. Open for discussion. Pastor Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SureWord Posted May 26, 2021 Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 Interesting thoughts. Maybe at times we are made to lie down in green pastures because of our propensity to lie down in dirt. Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted May 26, 2021 Author Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 (edited) Word: יַרְבִּיצֵ Speech: Verb Stem: Hiphil Type: Imperfect (yiqtol) Person: 3rd Person Gender: Masculine Number: Singular Long: Hebrew Verb: Hiphil Imperfect (yiqtol) 3rd Person Masculine Singular Unfortunately, I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar but it appears that the Hebrew word "rabas" covers the whole phrase "He maketh me to lie down" so I can't determine if "maketh" here refers to "forces" me to lie down" or "produces me to lie down". I do know that an actual sheep cannot be forced to lie down. They have to...#1 want to lie down. #2 Feel safe/secure enough to lie down. Edited May 26, 2021 by heartstrings add Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SureWord Posted May 26, 2021 Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 3 hours ago, heartstrings said: Word: יַרְבִּיצֵ Speech: Verb Stem: Hiphil Type: Imperfect (yiqtol) Person: 3rd Person Gender: Masculine Number: Singular Long: Hebrew Verb: Hiphil Imperfect (yiqtol) 3rd Person Masculine Singular Unfortunately, I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar but it appears that the Hebrew word "rabas" covers the whole phrase "He maketh me to lie down" so I can't determine if "maketh" here refers to "forces" me to lie down" or "produces me to lie down". I do know that an actual sheep cannot be forced to lie down. They have to...#1 want to lie down. #2 Feel safe/secure enough to lie down. How 'bout "greatly influence" to lie down? Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted May 26, 2021 Author Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 Well I guess you could feed them til their bellies are full. That would work. Or give them a shot of tranquilizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SureWord Posted May 26, 2021 Members Share Posted May 26, 2021 3 hours ago, heartstrings said: Well I guess you could feed them til their bellies are full. That would work. Or give them a shot of tranquilizer. Lol ...the Lord can get his sheep to listen without giving them a tranquilizer but the imagery is funny Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Martyr_4_FutureJoy Posted June 1, 2021 Members Share Posted June 1, 2021 On 5/26/2021 at 9:34 AM, heartstrings said: From my observations, sheep prefer to lie down in the dirt. Where did you observe sheep thus ? Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Martyr_4_FutureJoy Posted June 1, 2021 Members Share Posted June 1, 2021 https://bestfarmanimals.com/what-is-the-best-animal-to-control-grass/ excerpt, fwiw: "Sheep do such a good job of keeping the lawn trimmed that one Pennsylvania school district saved $15,000 a year on lawn maintenance by employing a herd of sheep to keep the grass trimmed! Other schools in Ohio have turned to a combination of sheep and goats to keep their grounds trim. " heartstrings and Andy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Perhaps 'green pastures' is a metaphor for perfect places with him. SureWord 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted June 2, 2021 Members Share Posted June 2, 2021 On 5/26/2021 at 11:53 AM, heartstrings said: Word: יַרְבִּיצֵ Speech: Verb Stem: Hiphil Type: Imperfect (yiqtol) Person: 3rd Person Gender: Masculine Number: Singular Long: Hebrew Verb: Hiphil Imperfect (yiqtol) 3rd Person Masculine Singular Unfortunately, I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar but it appears that the Hebrew word "rabas" covers the whole phrase "He maketh me to lie down" so I can't determine if "maketh" here refers to "forces" me to lie down" or "produces me to lie down". I do know that an actual sheep cannot be forced to lie down. They have to...#1 want to lie down. #2 Feel safe/secure enough to lie down. In order to get a more full picture of that which is presented in Psalm 23:2a, you will need to consider the Hebrew for the prepositional phrase "in green pastures." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted June 2, 2021 Author Members Share Posted June 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: In order to get a more full picture of that which is presented in Psalm 23:2a, you will need to consider the Hebrew for the prepositional phrase "in green pastures." Could you expound on that for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hugh_Flower Posted June 3, 2021 Members Share Posted June 3, 2021 I think this was very lovely put. Ticks and parasites likened to our sin and vanities, the green pasture akin to the Kingdom of God. Very nice Heartstrings, thank you Andy and heartstrings 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted June 5, 2021 Members Share Posted June 5, 2021 On 6/2/2021 at 10:17 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said: In order to get a more full picture of that which is presented in Psalm 23:2a, you will need to consider the Hebrew for the prepositional phrase "in green pastures." On 6/2/2021 at 1:55 PM, heartstrings said: Could you expound on that for me? First, I am not saying that this consideration of the prepositional phrase will answer your question fully; however, I am saying that it will provide a more full picture of the statement in Psalm 23:2a. Second, to consider the Hebrew for the prepositional phrase "in green pastures" -- The Hebrew for the preposition "in" simply indicates any nuance of "in," including "in, within, in the midst of, at, etc." The Hebrew for the noun "pastures" is connected to the Hebrew verb meaning "to sit, to dwell," and carries the meaning of "a sitting place, a dwelling place, a habitation, a pasturage wherein flocks lie down, dwell, and rest." This Hebrew noun is employed for "the habitations of the wilderness" in a number of Old Testament passages, such as Psalm 65:12, Jeremiah 9:10, Jeremiah 23:10 ("pleasant places of the wilderness"), Jeremiah 25:37 ("peaceable habitations"), Joel 1:19 & 20 ("pastures of the wilderness"), Joel 2:22 ("pastures of the wilderness"), Amos 1:2 ("habitations of the shepherds"). Finally, the Hebrew for the adjective "green" is connected to the Hebrew verb meaning "to sprout, to be green," and carries the meaning of "first sprouts of the earth, tender grass, tender herb (as that which clothes the meadows, as that food which beasts prefer)." It is specifically different than "grass ripe for mowing" and than "the more mature herbage, when already in seed." Thus the full picture of Psalm 23:2a is intended to convey peacefulness, restfulness, sweetness (preferred food), fullness, etc. Although I am not a shepherd, so I lack some practical experience in this matter, I would guess that practically a shepherd would motivate his sheep to "lie down" at such a "habitation of the wilderness" within a portion that would not specifically ruin the whole, likely after the sheep had "filled up" on sweet, green grass. On the other hand, you are the shepherd who would know a bit better than I would on this "practical" matter. (Also, a practical question - Is it possible to teach/motivate sheep to defecate in a different location than where they lie down, especially if the flock is regularly on the move from pasturage to pasturage?) heartstrings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators OLD fashioned preacher Posted November 12, 2021 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2021 On 6/1/2021 at 4:15 PM, Martyr_4_FutureJoy said: Where did you observe sheep thus ? In answer to your question. He raises sheep and is in the FL panhandle. Those pics are bedding areas of his own sheep. heartstrings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 12, 2021 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 8:10 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said: First, I am not saying that this consideration of the prepositional phrase will answer your question fully; however, I am saying that it will provide a more full picture of the statement in Psalm 23:2a. Second, to consider the Hebrew for the prepositional phrase "in green pastures" -- The Hebrew for the preposition "in" simply indicates any nuance of "in," including "in, within, in the midst of, at, etc." The Hebrew for the noun "pastures" is connected to the Hebrew verb meaning "to sit, to dwell," and carries the meaning of "a sitting place, a dwelling place, a habitation, a pasturage wherein flocks lie down, dwell, and rest." This Hebrew noun is employed for "the habitations of the wilderness" in a number of Old Testament passages, such as Psalm 65:12, Jeremiah 9:10, Jeremiah 23:10 ("pleasant places of the wilderness"), Jeremiah 25:37 ("peaceable habitations"), Joel 1:19 & 20 ("pastures of the wilderness"), Joel 2:22 ("pastures of the wilderness"), Amos 1:2 ("habitations of the shepherds"). Finally, the Hebrew for the adjective "green" is connected to the Hebrew verb meaning "to sprout, to be green," and carries the meaning of "first sprouts of the earth, tender grass, tender herb (as that which clothes the meadows, as that food which beasts prefer)." It is specifically different than "grass ripe for mowing" and than "the more mature herbage, when already in seed." Thus the full picture of Psalm 23:2a is intended to convey peacefulness, restfulness, sweetness (preferred food), fullness, etc. Although I am not a shepherd, so I lack some practical experience in this matter, I would guess that practically a shepherd would motivate his sheep to "lie down" at such a "habitation of the wilderness" within a portion that would not specifically ruin the whole, likely after the sheep had "filled up" on sweet, green grass. On the other hand, you are the shepherd who would know a bit better than I would on this "practical" matter. (Also, a practical question - Is it possible to teach/motivate sheep to defecate in a different location than where they lie down, especially if the flock is regularly on the move from pasturage to pasturage?) Sheep relieve themselves wherever they happen to be when the need arises. They do so while they are eating as well. When they do so, in the grass for instance, they will invariably avoid eating near that spot. Therefore when I place piles of hay on the ground, I'm careful to avoid putting it on manure piles. I also place the hay piles about 7 to 8 feet apart, which exceeds the length of a sheep's body, so that they don't defecate into the next pile as they are eating. I don't just put out a roll of hay; I pitchfork it out in numerous piles. They waste far less of it this way. I don't know of any way to motivate sheep to defecate in a certain place; they just go where they please. But I have my land cross-fenced into 8 pastures for the purpose of rotating the sheep into a clean pasture after a few days; ideally 3 or 4 days. But as to the lying down, they tend to lie down in the same area of any given pasture each night. So they foul that area up pretty quickly as they do relieve themselves when they arise every morning. My point was that, for a shepherd in a semi-arid region of sparse/scarce grass, it would be foolish for him to allow his sheep to lie down and foul up perfectly viable "food" knowing that it would be rendered useless by the next morning. I don't believe that psalm 23 can be compared, at least not entirely, to how an earthly shepherd cares for sheep. I believe that an ancient Middle Eastern shepherd, upon hearing this Psalm read, would have been dumbfounded by the realization that this was something extraordinarily different. Jim_Alaska 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.