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end of prophecy, tongues, knowledge


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3 minutes ago, Baptistsenior said:

we are constantly told that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease when the Bible comes based on this statement in the Bible 'But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

but how do we know this refers to the Bible and not Jesus' returnĀ 

It doesn't refer to the bible it refers to the time we see our Lord "face to face". I Cor. 13:12 There won't be any need for the bible either anymore.

Whenever in doubt go to the context of the scripture.

I'm not sure why tongues and other sign gifts have ceased. One theory is that these things were a sign for the early Jews but since God has turned primarily to the Gentiles and the Gentiles seek wisdom (I Cor. 1:22) that the sign gifts have ceased. They seem to have ceased when Paul turned away from them one last time in Acts 28 and with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Im really not sure why they stopped I have my thoughts on it but really can't prove it from scripture only by showing a pattern of God's dealings during different dispensations especially early on.

It's possible tongues and healing will return during the Tribulation since we know that prophecy will.Ā 

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6 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It doesn't refer to the bible it refers to the time we see our Lord "face to face". I Cor. 13:12 There won't be any need for the bible either anymore.

Whenever in doubt go to the context of the scripture.

I'm not sure why tongues and other sign gifts have ceased. One theory is that these things were a sign for the early Jews but since God has turned primarily to the Gentiles and the Gentiles seek wisdom (I Cor. 1:22) that the sign gifts have ceased. They seem to have ceased when Paul turned away from them one last time in Acts 28 and with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Im really not sure why they stopped I have my thoughts on it but really can't prove it from scripture only by showing a pattern of God's dealings during different dispensations especially early on.

It's possible tongues and healing will return during the Tribulation since we know that prophecy will.Ā 

We've always been told they ceased, but how do we know that?Ā  Sometimes I wonder if Baptists miss out on alot of things God meant for us because we are afraid to be like chrismatics.Ā  Same with healing etcĀ 

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3 minutes ago, Baptistsenior said:

We've always been told they ceased, but how do we know that?Ā  Sometimes I wonder if Baptists miss out on alot of things God meant for us because we are afraid to be like chrismatics.Ā  Same with healing etcĀ 

The gobbledygook you hear in Charismatic churches are not the tongues of the early church. In fact, the pagans and oracles of the Greeks had the same gibberish before Christ even showed up. Shamans, Catholics, Wiccans and Mormons carry on with it to this day.

As far as healing or raising people back to life I wouldn't trust any of it. Like I said it seems to be associated with Jews and the temple. When the temple is rebuilt and the 144k preach these things may return but Satan will mimic it like Joanne's and Jambres mimicked Moses.Ā 

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41 minutes ago, SureWord said:

The gobbledygook you hear in Charismatic churches are not the tongues of the early church. In fact, the pagans and oracles of the Greeks had the same gibberish before Christ even showed up. Shamans, Catholics, Wiccans and Mormons carry on with it to this day.

As far as healing or raising people back to life I wouldn't trust any of it. Like I said it seems to be associated with Jews and the temple. When the temple is rebuilt and the 144k preach these things may return but Satan will mimic it like Joanne's and Jambres mimicked Moses.Ā 

I realize that the tongues back then was just normal languages, not the jibberish of today.Ā  I also don't believe in raising people from the dead (although Jack Hyles claimed he did that), I also don't believe in healings the way the apostles did them, but what about the way the early church was instructed to deal with the sick?Ā  It seems we leave out alot of things the early church didĀ Ā 

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It would seen that graduation day has come and those things are no longer needed; butĀ  love isĀ now the order of the day. This is what Paul called "a more excellent way".

1Co 12:28Ā (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

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3 hours ago, Baptistsenior said:

we are constantly told that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease when the Bible comes based on this statement in the Bible 'But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

but how do we know this refers to the Bible and not Jesus' returnĀ 

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because,Ā 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because,Ā 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7-Ā So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presentlyĀ  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

6 hours ago, Baptistsenior said:

I realize that the tongues back then was just normal languages, not the jibberish of today.Ā  I also don't believe in raising people from the dead (although Jack Hyles claimed he did that), I also don't believe in healings the way the apostles did them, but what about the way the early church was instructed to deal with the sick?Ā  It seems we leave out alot of things the early church didĀ Ā 

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years.Ā 

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5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It would seen that graduation day has come and those things are no longer needed; butĀ  love isĀ now the order of the day. This what Paul called "a more excellent way".

1Co 12:28Ā (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Yes, Paul could be referring to charity as that which is perfect ("charity which is the bond of perfectness") and that perfection will be realized fully in the presence of the Lord.

I've heard the explanation also that the sign gifts went out with the apostles and to have been an apostle you had to literally spend time with the Lord. Some exceptions were made like with Paul who is essence did spend time with the Lord when he received the Revelation of the mystery while he was in Arabia.

Today we are in the era of pastors and teachers.

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If the perfect is not the completed revelation of Gods Word, then these gifts should surely be more obviously apparent among Christian churches.Ā 

Most of what I hear is charismatic or Pentecostal emotionalism, with little reliance on the Word.

But in regards to seeing 'face to face' ..

Ā 

The bible is like a mirror to us. It shows who we truly are by its teachings, inspired by God.Ā 

Also the 1 corinthians 13 context is about incomplete to complete , partial to whole, progressing to finishing.Ā 

So whatever is perfect , was incomplete, partial, progressing when Paul was writing to the church at Corinth.

Jesus doesn't really fit here.Ā 

Ā 

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19 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because,Ā 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

I can accept #2 but #1 is a little suspect in my mind. Too many references to future events without any need for an "again."

Ā 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7-Ā So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presentlyĀ  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years.Ā 

I agree the correlation of 1 Cor. 1:7, 2 Cor. 3:18 are spot on. As far as annoiting with oil, yes some do it, and it is Biblical. As far as the laying on of hands during an ordaining, our church does it and of course we have the example of Saul and Barnabus in Acts by the Church of Antioch [Acts 13:2-3].

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20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because,Ā 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

That sure makes sense.Ā  ThanksĀ 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7-Ā So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presentlyĀ  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years.Ā 

And this makes sense too.Ā  I guess it's all a matter of what we choose to believe.Ā 

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20 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7-Ā So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presentlyĀ  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years.Ā 

My primary response was part 2, context. The context is clearly the giving of God's word. Yes, #1 was shaky, at best, and I considered erasing it, but there it is. Ignore it, look at #2

5 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

I can accept #2 but #1 is a little suspect in my mind. Too many references to future events without any need for an "again."

Ā 

Yes, as I said above, I agree it was a bit, or a lot, shaky. Stick with #2.

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