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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Calvinism


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On 12/19/2020 at 2:17 PM, Danny Carlton said:

You assume the condemnation of sin is some arbitrary attribute, genetically handed down. What we inherit from Adam is both the knowledge of right and wrong coupled with the inability to always choose what is right. That creates sin, and condemns us. It's not until a child reaches the age of accountability that they make a sinful choice, and at that point become a sinner, in need of salvation. Sin is something we do. A sin nature is something we inherit, but doesn't become sin until we make that first choice to sin, understanding that it's wrong. Our sin nature itself does not condemn us, our choice to sin does.

We are all affected by the results of the fall, as all are born as spiritual dead in sin!

On 12/20/2020 at 8:11 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

________________________________________

Roman 3:10-12 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every  mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God."

So, here is a question that we non-Calvinists commonly ask in opposition to Calvinism, being turned back at us --

Does "ALL" actually mean "ALL;" and does "NONE" actually mean "NONE"?

we were all judged by God as being in Adam, so the spiritual death that came upon Him right after he sinned as now happened to all of us, hence the need to be born again!

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

So then only "elect" babies die? 

What about all those aborted? Were they chosen also?

Can I have some scripture for this rabbit hole?

All infants to my understanding are elected by the Father to be saved by the death of Jesus...

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14 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

If, as you  said; "all infants are elected by God unto salvation", then it would follow that all people are elected to salvation, after all, all people were once babies.

 Following this ridiculous train of thought, then no one would be lost. You said that that was what you believed; I would ask why you believe that; does Scripture indicate that anywhere?

No, we hold that the Lord knows who will be dying as a baby, and He makes sure that they will be part of His redeemed!

Using your own logic, just as ridiculous to hold that there will be still lost sinner sin Hell who Jesus died in the place of for their sins!

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On 11/21/2020 at 9:46 AM, Baptistsenior said:

Why do preachers that condemn Calvanism quote Spurgeon so often?  

PTL. I Love the little Word "ALL" and the little word "all" is not hard to understand except for some "religion club" members!!

God our Savior,
4 who desires "all" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for "all", the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:4
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but
is patient toward you,
not wishing for ""any"" to perish but for "all" to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
It's a nice little word isn't it

John 1:7 (KJV 1900)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ""all ""men through him might believe.
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ""all""men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ""all"" men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ""all"" men, specially of those that believe.
Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ""all"" men,
Isaiah 45:22 (KJV 1900)
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
For I am God, and there is none else.

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!!!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved....................

---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------

An example prayer for those that have never talked to God!

Heavenly Father:........................................... ...............................
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen

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3 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

No, we hold that the Lord knows who will be dying as a baby, and He makes sure that they will be part of His redeemed!

Using your own logic, just as ridiculous to hold that there will be still lost sinner sin Hell who Jesus died in the place of for their sins!

You don't have any scripural proof for this. It's pure private interpetation. 

Nobody is elected to be saved or damned by the arbitrary will of God. This is nothing but the deluded reasonings of the Protestant Pope, i.e.  John Calvin. This is no different than the RCCs limbo fantasy nonsense. Pure conjecture. You are elected to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son when you accept him as you Lord and Savior. The predestination was set by the foreknowledge of God but it doesn't kick in until after you exercise your freewill by faith in the gospel. Not before. You have the cart before the horse.

The only thing that you can scriptural support concerning babies is that God does not impute sin to them when there is no knowledge of the law whether scriptural or the law of God written on the heart. Therefore, even though the are sinful, as proven by death, sin is not imputed to them therefore they die in innocency. 

Even in this case there is no mention whether babies who die are part of the body of Christ. They end up in heaven is all we know.

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50 minutes ago, SureWord said:

You don't have any scripural proof for this. It's pure private interpetation. 

Nobody is elected to be saved or damned by the arbitrary will of God. This is nothing but the deluded reasonings of the Protestant Pope, i.e.  John Calvin. This is no different than the RCCs limbo fantasy nonsense. Pure conjecture. You are elected to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son when you accept him as you Lord and Savior. The predestination was set by the foreknowledge of God but it doesn't kick in until after you exercise your freewill by faith in the gospel. Not before. You have the cart before the horse.

The only thing that you can scriptural support concerning babies is that God does not impute sin to them when there is no knowledge of the law whether scriptural or the law of God written on the heart. Therefore, even though the are sinful, as proven by death, sin is not imputed to them therefore they die in innocency. 

Even in this case there is no mention whether babies who die are part of the body of Christ. They end up in heaven is all we know.

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

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Until you use Scripture your ideas are nothing more than your ideas, which, by-the-way, border on the absurd.

Here is an example of using Scripture to prove a biblical point:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 

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8 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

Edited by SureWord
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11 hours ago, SureWord said:

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

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39 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

By default, if God chooses who will go to Heaven, then he has also chosen who will go to hell, thus taking the choice out of man's hand. 

 

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As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

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20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

IF this is true (which I myself do NOT accept), then --

1.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was "without the law" BEFORE he was under the law. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any obligation to the law.
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any condemnation by the law.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "legally" in the sight of God the Judge.
     d.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of forgiveness,
           imputation, propitiation, or justification.

2.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was spiritually "alive" BEFORE he was spiritually dead. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a child of darkness, disobedience, and wrath.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "literally" in his spiritual condition.
     d.  There there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of cleansing,
           regeneration, redemption, or reconciliation.

(Note: I myself am compelled to contend that holding this viewpoint is completely contrary and destructive to the Biblical doctrines of mankind's sinfulness and of God's saving grace.  I myself am not willing to do this, in order to solve the "baby problem.")

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

By default, if God chooses who will go to Heaven, then he has also chosen who will go to hell, thus taking the choice out of man's hand. 

 

All who go to Hell freely are choosing to go there, and they loved the darkness more then the Light!

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56 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

All who go to Hell freely are choosing to go there, and they loved the darkness more then the Light!

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:58 PM, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Edited by SureWord
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35 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We were all in Adam in the Fall, as we all died in Adam, but the saved shall be made alive again in the second Adam. Christ Jesus!

42 minutes ago, SureWord said:

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

free will is to decide to reject being saved though....

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20 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

Indeed, as a non-Calvinist I most certainly WOULD recognize that the "natural man can do nothing concerning [his] spiritual state unless and until God Himself intervenes."  However, the difference in the Calvinistic system of belief and my non-Calvinistic system of belief is the following:

1.  The Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God only intervenes for SOME, and is NOT WILLING to intervene for the rest, and thus those among "the rest" have no ability whatsoever at all ever to choose anything different than to love the darkness rather than the Light.

2.  The non-Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God has promised to and actually does intervene for ALL, by means of His drawing work upon ALL, thereby granting ALL the ability and opportunity to choose the light of Christ over their darkness of sin.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed.

So then, you have young children who have "no imputed sin" in their "legal" standing before God, but are dead in sin (having a sin nature) in their "literal" spiritual condition.  If this is so, then --

1.  Because they are not sinners in their "legal" standing before God, they have no need for God's saving works of forgiveness, propitiation, imputed righteousness, or justification, all through Christ.

2.  Because they are indeed sinners in their "literal" spiritual condition (having a sin nature), they are still in need for God's saving works of cleaning, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations, all through Christ.  Thus I would ask -- How do young children that die acquire God's saving works of cleansing, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations apart from faith in Christ?

By the way, IF Romans 7:9 is applied to young children before the time of accountability, then it stands in contradiction to your above position.  In Romans 7:9 Paul stated, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came , sin revived, and I died."  In this verse, the apostle did not talk about the "legal" imputation of sin upon his account.  Rather, he talked about the matter of his spiritual life and death.  If he was spiritually alive before some "time of accountability," then he was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and thus did NOT possess a sin nature.  For those who possess a sin nature are "dead" by spiritual nature.  

(Note: I myself do NOT believe that Romans 7:9 contextually applies to young children before some time of accountability, but that it contextually applies to a brand new believer immediately after conversion.)

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

As an additional question, according to God's Word when exactly is the work of the law written in the heart of the human individual?  When exactly does the conscience begin to bear witness?  When exactly does it become natural for the human individual "to do BY NATURE the things contained in the law"?

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1.  According to Romans 5:12, upon how many of mankind did death pass?
2.  According to Romans 5:12, how many among mankind have sinned?
3.  According to Romans 5:13, was sin in the world BEFORE the law of Moses?
4.  According to Romans 5:13, when is sin not imputed?
5.  So then, was sin imputed BEFORE the law of Moses?
6.  So then, if sin was indeed imputed before the law of Moses, by what law was it imputed?
7.  So then, if sin was not imputed before the law of Moses, why did death reign from Adam to Moses?
8.  So then, can death reign apart from sinfulness and/or imputed sin?
9.  So then, is death the very consequence for imputed sin? (See Romans 5:12, 15, 21)

10.  According to Romans 5:15, how were many made to "be dead," by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
11.  According to Romans 5:17, how did death come to reign upon all men (as per Romans 5:12), by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
12.  According to Romans 5:18, upon how many of mankind did judgment come unto condemnation (which are legal terms of accountability)?
13.  According to Romans 5:18, how did judgment unto condemnation come upon mankind, by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
14.  According to Romans 5:19, how are we "made sinners," by the consequence of our own disobedience, or by the consequence of someone else's disobedience?

Here then is the truth -- NOT because of my own sin, BUT because of Adam's first sin, I am made (at my beginning) a sinner and made (at my beginning) to "be dead," having death reigning over me and having judgment unto condemnation upon me.  This was already true for me BEFORE my own first act of sin, and my acts of sin only add to the abundance of this spiritual problem.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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