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I got into an interesting discussion with another IFB individual on Facebook the other day, in refuting something my also IFB sister put up, saying that grace 'began' in Acts 9, which, as we all know, would coincide with the calling of Saul/Paul. I admit, I have never heard that idea. Is this an aspect of the hyper-dispensationalism of which I have heard? Is there an particular group of IFB's who hold to this position? Or does anyone on the board hold to it, that could lay out an argument for it? because as far as I understand scripture, grace "began' when Jesus rose from the dead, and brought His blood before the Father, just after His resurrection and before He met with the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and then His Apostles in the locked upper room, where he gave them the gift of the Holy ghost, (ie, the new birth).

And as we all know, on Pentecost, 3000 were saved by grace, and shortly thereafter, 5000+ were saved, by grace, as well as many more, before Saul was, himself, saved by grace. 

So, is this a thing? because I have never heard of it.

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Are we talking about the so-called "age of grace?" 

Or, are we talking about "saving grace?" 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's characteristic of "grace?" 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's first administration of grace unto mankind? 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's "plan of grace?"

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Grace has always been since the beginning but most likely they are referring to the "Age of Grace" or the "gospel of the grace of God" where grace abounds through Jesus Christ. 

They could be hyper-dispensationalists or maybe not since many dispensationalists are accused of being "hypers".

If you want to know if they are true hypers then ask them what they believe about believers baptism and communion. Hypers believe they do not apply to the Church.

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4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Are we talking about the so-called "age of grace?" 

Or, are we talking about "saving grace?" 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's characteristic of "grace?" 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's first administration of grace unto mankind? 

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's "plan of grace?"

 

3 hours ago, SureWord said:

Grace has always been since the beginning but most likely they are referring to the "Age of Grace" or the "gospel of the grace of God" where grace abounds through Jesus Christ. 

They could be hyper-dispensationalists or maybe not since many dispensationalists are accused of being "hypers".

If you want to know if they are true hypers then ask them what they believe about believers baptism and communion. Hypers believe they do not apply to the Church.

I'd hoped the context of the question would answer these. Saving grace; grace related to salvation.  John 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

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2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

 

I'd hoped the context of the question would answer these. Saving grace; grace related to salvation.  John 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

If you want more info on the teaching of grace starting in Acts 9 read anything by Cornelius Stam, JC O'Hair, E. Bullinger, Charles E. Baker, Les Feldick, the Berean Bible Society and the Grace Churches mostly out of Michigan which there are plenty of videos on YouTube of their services. I believe you can find Stam's book "Acts Dispensationally Considered" and Bullinger's Companion Bible notes posted for free on the internet. Bullinger does have some really good stuff like his book "Witness in the Stars".

They do have some revealing teachings but they take things too far. Like I said, disregarding the two ordinances and some even saying none of the bible other than Paul's prison epistles have any application to Christians.

Also, Peter Ruckman teaches a moderate form of it but not to the degree they do. He teaches that the gospel of grace revealed to Paul was not the same gospel Peter was preaching in the early part of Acts but he doesn't teach two different gospels being preached simultaneously. This difference hinged on the Jews rejection of their Messiah. The "hypers" have two different gospels at the SAME TIME being preached even to this day which is crazy. One to Israel and one to the Church. 

Grace did not start in Acts. The gospel of the grace of God was fully revealed to Paul after his conversion but like you said it began at Calvary.

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21 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I got into an interesting discussion with another IFB individual on Facebook the other day, in refuting something my also IFB sister put up, saying that grace 'began' in Acts 9, which, as we all know, would coincide with the calling of Saul/Paul. I admit, I have never heard that idea. Is this an aspect of the hyper-dispensationalism of which I have heard? Is there an particular group of IFB's who hold to this position? Or does anyone on the board hold to it, that could lay out an argument for it? because as far as I understand scripture, grace "began' when Jesus rose from the dead, and brought His blood before the Father, just after His resurrection and before He met with the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and then His Apostles in the locked upper room, where he gave them the gift of the Holy ghost, (ie, the new birth).

And as we all know, on Pentecost, 3000 were saved by grace, and shortly thereafter, 5000+ were saved, by grace, as well as many more, before Saul was, himself, saved by grace. 

So, is this a thing? because I have never heard of it.

Grace started in the garden right after the fall!

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17 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Genesis 6:8 KJV
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
 

 

8 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Grace started in the garden right after the fall!

These are not grace that brought eternal life. There was not eternal life until the resurrection of Jesus Christ, else Christ need not have died.

 

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

 

These are not grace that brought eternal life. There was not eternal life until the resurrection of Jesus Christ, else Christ need not have died.

 

Grace was there by the giving of the first message of the Messiah, and granting Adam and Eve forgiveness!

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3 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Grace was there by the giving of the first message of the Messiah, and granting Adam and Eve forgiveness!

Re-read Ukulelemike's above post again. It's deep and to the point.

Adam and Eve had a promise of grace (but still had to ride it out in Abraham's Bosom)  and Noah's grace was clearly a figure of the grace to come but the gift of grace did not come until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why we call this "economy of God" the "dispensation of grace".

 

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3 hours ago, SureWord said:

but the gift of grace did not come until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why we call this "economy of God" the "dispensation of grace".

 

Scripture for this statement would be very helpful.

You are overthinking what Grace is. It is simply the unmerited Favor of God.

Genesis 6:8 (KJV) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

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11 hours ago, SureWord said:

Re-read Ukulelemike's above post again. It's deep and to the point.

Adam and Eve had a promise of grace (but still had to ride it out in Abraham's Bosom)  and Noah's grace was clearly a figure of the grace to come but the gift of grace did not come until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why we call this "economy of God" the "dispensation of grace".

 

Salvation though has always been due to Grace, as none were ever saved by anything other method!

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Salvation by grace never happened until faith came. Faith, SAVING faith, did not come until after the law. This is what is spoken of in Galatians 3: 

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. " (Gal 3:22-25)

Some might say, "There has ALWAYS been faith!" indeed there has, just like there has always been grace. But here in Galatians, we see a different quality of faith, one that had not been present until after the law passed, after Christ's death, burial and resurrection, and it was that faith to which the law pointed us, and that faith which freed us from the law. What faith? SAVING faith. And saving faith works with saving grace, neither of which were present until AFTER the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  For by grace are ye saved, through faith-not possible before the finished work of redemption by Jesus Christ on Calvary.

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19 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Salvation by grace never happened until faith came. Faith, SAVING faith, did not come until after the law. This is what is spoken of in Galatians 3: 

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. " (Gal 3:22-25)

First, let us note that Galatians 3:22-25 does not precisely employ a reference to "salvation" or "saved" by/through faith.  Rather, it specifically mentions two blessings by/through faith -- (1) "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ" and (2) "might be justified by faith."  Thus we may conclude that in this context justification by/through faith is Biblically equivalent to salvation by/through faith.  

Having then recognized this truth, I would ask -- Are you indicating from this passage and context that justification by/through faith did not exist in the time of the Old Testament for Old Testament saints?

(Note: It is worthy to consider that throughout the Epistle to the Galatians the word "save" (including any of its variants) is only employed two times; and in both cases it is not the word for "deliverance," but is a synonym for "except." (See Galatians 1:19, 6:14)  Furthermore, the word "salvation" is not employed in the epistle at all.  Thus when the Epistle to the Galatians makes reference unto the doctrine of salvation, it does so through other terms, such as justified, justification, etc.)

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4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

First, let us note that Galatians 3:22-25 does not precisely employ a reference to "salvation" or "saved" by/through faith.  Rather, it specifically mentions two blessings by/through faith -- (1) "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ" and (2) "might be justified by faith."  Thus we may conclude that in this context justification by/through faith is Biblically equivalent to salvation by/through faith.  

Having then recognized this truth, I would ask -- Are you indicating from this passage and context that justification by/through faith did not exist in the time of the Old Testament for Old Testament saints?

(Note: It is worthy to consider that throughout the Epistle to the Galatians the word "save" (including any of its variants) is only employed two times; and in both cases it is not the word for "deliverance," but is a synonym for "except." (See Galatians 1:19, 6:14)  Furthermore, the word "salvation" is not employed in the epistle at all.  Thus when the Epistle to the Galatians makes reference unto the doctrine of salvation, it does so through other terms, such as justified, justification, etc.)

Well, let me ask you: in what way did faith "come", that was clearly not present while we were kept under the law? What was the difference? It says right in the passage, " Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So clearly, there was a BEFORE faith came, and an AFTER faith came. What makes the difference?

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I'm thankful "grace" is one of God's attributes and that without it I wouldn't even have faith. The fact that I can administer grace to others is evidence enough for me it emanates from God. Knowing the low estate of myself, I would not give grace except for the grace of God. When did saving grace appear is a rabbit hole. The O.T. saints looked forward to the day of salvation by grace through faith whereas we've been given the grace to see grace giving faith in our rearview mirror. Thank you Lord Jesus!

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18 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Well, let me ask you: in what way did faith "come", that was clearly not present while we were kept under the law? What was the difference? It says right in the passage, " Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So clearly, there was a BEFORE faith came, and an AFTER faith came. What makes the difference?

In order to understand Galatians 3:22-29 correctly, we must understand the full context of which it is a part.  That full context begins with Galatians 3:1-5 -- "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Are ye so foolish?  Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  Have ye suffered so many things in vain?  If it be yet in vain.  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

In this passage three driving questions are presented which provide the driving purpose for the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout the remainder of Galatians 3-6.  These three driving questions are:

1.  "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
2.  "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
3.  "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

In summary, the subject of these three questions is as follows:

1.  Do believers RECEIVE the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing faith?
2.  Is spiritual growth accomplished by the Spirit (through faith), or by the flesh (through the works of the law)?
3.  Is Biblical ministry accomplished by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Now, the first of these three questions is that which drives the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout Galatians 3-4 (including Galatians 3:22-29, the passage in question above).  Then building upon the conclusions for the first question, the second and third of these questions is that which drives the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout Galatians 5-6.

With this understanding in mind, we may note that the theme throughout Galatians 3-4 is not primarily about whether believers are justified (saved) through faith or through the works of the law, but is primarily about whether believers receive the gift/promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit through faith or through the works of the law.  Recognizing this, we already begin to see wherein there was a difference between the Old Testament believer and the New Testament believer; for Old Testament believers did not experience the blessing of the Holy Spirit's permanent indwelling, whereas we New Testament believers do experience this blessing.

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On 7/30/2020 at 10:25 AM, Ukulelemike said:

Salvation by grace never happened until faith came. Faith, SAVING faith, did not come until after the law. This is what is spoken of in Galatians 3: 

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. " (Gal 3:22-25)

Some might say, "There has ALWAYS been faith!" indeed there has, just like there has always been grace. But here in Galatians, we see a different quality of faith, one that had not been present until after the law passed, after Christ's death, burial and resurrection, and it was that faith to which the law pointed us, and that faith which freed us from the law. What faith? SAVING faith. And saving faith works with saving grace, neither of which were present until AFTER the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  For by grace are ye saved, through faith-not possible before the finished work of redemption by Jesus Christ on Calvary.

The OT saints were saved just as we were, due to the Cross of Christ, and them placing trust and faith in the promised messiah!

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Are we talking about the so-called "age of grace?" 

I myself would contend that using the title, "Age of Grace," for the present dispensation of time is a misrepresentation.  I would contend that this present dispensation of time should rather be called the age/dispensation of the New Testament church.

On 7/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's characteristic of "grace?" 

I myself would contend that our Lord God's characteristic of "grace" (graciousness) has been a part of His eternal, unchanging character since eternity past.

On 7/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's first administration of grace unto mankind? 

I myself would contend that our Lord God first administered grace unto mankind when He delivered the first promise of a coming Savior in Genesis 3:15.

On 7/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Or, are we talking about our Lord God's "plan of grace?"

I myself would contend that our Lord God's "plan of grace" began at least from the foundation of the world, for in Revelation 13:8 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

On 7/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Or, are we talking about "saving grace?" 

I myself would contend that our Lord God's justifying/saving grace began at least as early as Abraham (and I would actually contend that it began even before that).  According to Romans 3:24 and Titus 3:7, justification is only by God's grace.  Then in Romans 4:3-5 we find that this justifying/saving grace of God was specifically administered unto Abraham through Abraham's faith -- "For what saith the scriptures?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

(Note: As for myself, I will consider any teaching contrary to this to be false teaching and false gospel.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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On 7/30/2020 at 11:11 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

First, let us note that Galatians 3:22-25 does not precisely employ a reference to "salvation" or "saved" by/through faith.  Rather, it specifically mentions two blessings by/through faith -- (1) "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ" and (2) "might be justified by faith."  Thus we may conclude that in this context justification by/through faith is Biblically equivalent to salvation by/through faith.  

Having then recognized this truth, I would ask -- Are you indicating from this passage and context that justification by/through faith did not exist in the time of the Old Testament for Old Testament saints?

(Note: It is worthy to consider that throughout the Epistle to the Galatians the word "save" (including any of its variants) is only employed two times; and in both cases it is not the word for "deliverance," but is a synonym for "except." (See Galatians 1:19, 6:14)  Furthermore, the word "salvation" is not employed in the epistle at all.  Thus when the Epistle to the Galatians makes reference unto the doctrine of salvation, it does so through other terms, such as justified, justification, etc.)

The saved OT believers by God were the ones awaiting messiah to rescue them out from Hades and take them to heaven with Him, which Jesus did when he rose again!

23 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In order to understand Galatians 3:22-29 correctly, we must understand the full context of which it is a part.  That full context begins with Galatians 3:1-5 -- "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Are ye so foolish?  Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  Have ye suffered so many things in vain?  If it be yet in vain.  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

In this passage three driving questions are presented which provide the driving purpose for the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout the remainder of Galatians 3-6.  These three driving questions are:

1.  "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
2.  "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
3.  "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

In summary, the subject of these three questions is as follows:

1.  Do believers RECEIVE the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing faith?
2.  Is spiritual growth accomplished by the Spirit (through faith), or by the flesh (through the works of the law)?
3.  Is Biblical ministry accomplished by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Now, the first of these three questions is that which drives the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout Galatians 3-4 (including Galatians 3:22-29, the passage in question above).  Then building upon the conclusions for the first question, the second and third of these questions is that which drives the apostle's arguments and explanations throughout Galatians 5-6.

With this understanding in mind, we may note that the theme throughout Galatians 3-4 is not primarily about whether believers are justified (saved) through faith or through the works of the law, but is primarily about whether believers receive the gift/promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit through faith or through the works of the law.  Recognizing this, we already begin to see wherein there was a difference between the Old Testament believer and the New Testament believer; for Old Testament believers did not experience the blessing of the Holy Spirit's permanent indwelling, whereas we New Testament believers do experience this blessing.

Think that the OT saints were the ones that Paul describes as being those whom God overlooked their sins and remitted them in the past, but now under the NC all saved have the indwelling and sealing by the Holy Spirit, which not all had under the old Covenant!

On 7/30/2020 at 3:31 PM, Ukulelemike said:

Well, let me ask you: in what way did faith "come", that was clearly not present while we were kept under the law? What was the difference? It says right in the passage, " Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So clearly, there was a BEFORE faith came, and an AFTER faith came. What makes the difference?

The Faith seems to be saying that the messiah and his new Covenant has now come!

OT believers were saved by same Cross and Messiah as we now are, but did not have the indwelling and sealing by Holy Spirit, and had physical not spiritual blessings under their arrangement with God!

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On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, DaChaser said:

The OT saints were saved just as we were, due to the Cross of Christ, and them placing trust and faith in the promised messiah!

No, they weren't. They were perhaps protected, but salvation came by Christ and His work on the cross, not before.

On 8/1/2020 at 7:02 AM, DaChaser said:

 

OT believers were saved by same Cross and Messiah as we now are, but did not have the indwelling and sealing by Holy Spirit, and had physical not spiritual blessings under their arrangement with God!

Exactly! Salvation can only be accomplished through the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Ghost, not before. They didn't have it, they weren't saved.

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Old Testament believers DID experience divine justification (as per the example of Abraham, see Romans 4 & Galatians 3); and divine justification IS divine salvation (as per the forgiveness of sinful guiltiness, the imputation of divine righteousness, and the deliverance from eternal condemnation).

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