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Can religious co-exist side-by-side?


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Posted (edited)
On 7/25/2020 at 1:32 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

I thought this a very interesting video. Who would have thought this could happen in Arabia?

 

 

Bill, what is your opinion of the video's message?

Edited by 1Timothy115
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14 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Bill, what is your opinion of the video's message?

I was impressed that an Arab country is allowing such tolerance. It certainly is not the norm in that part of the world. 

What was your impression?

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5 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I was impressed that an Arab country is allowing such tolerance. It certainly is not the norm in that part of the world. 

What was your impression?

Not surprised. Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie. 

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38 minutes ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Not surprised. Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie. 

 

39 minutes ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Not surprised. Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie. 

I assume you did not watch the video. It would be helpful if you quoted the words of the verse you reference. I'll do it for you.

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief… except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment. Quran 16:106

I see nothing here saying it is all right to lie or to comply anyone to lie. It does say that Allah {God} will bring punishment. 

I think you interpretation is not accurate. To me it is like the Bible saying that God will punish those who do not believe. 

But that is off topic. Did you watch the video?

 

 

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On 7/27/2020 at 7:51 AM, Bouncing Bill said:

I was impressed that an Arab country is allowing such tolerance. It certainly is not the norm in that part of the world. 

What was your impression?

Muslims can show tolerance on outside, but inside still hate the non Muslim, as they expect still Allah to destroy us all in end!

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On 7/29/2020 at 9:37 AM, DaChaser said:

Muslims can show tolerance on outside, but inside still hate the non Muslim, as they expect still Allah to destroy us all in end!

Well that works both ways. There are many American christians [notice little c] who may show tolerance but hate the Muslim on the inside. Both the muslim and the christian are wrong when they do this as both are violating an important tenet of their religion. 

However, did you watch the video?

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6 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Well that works both ways. There are many American christians [notice little c] who may show tolerance but hate the Muslim on the inside. Both the muslim and the christian are wrong when they do this as both are violating an important tenet of their religion. 

However, did you watch the video?

Yes

On 7/27/2020 at 2:20 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

 

I assume you did not watch the video. It would be helpful if you quoted the words of the verse you reference. I'll do it for you.

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief… except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment. Quran 16:106

I see nothing here saying it is all right to lie or to comply anyone to lie. It does say that Allah {God} will bring punishment. 

I think you interpretation is not accurate. To me it is like the Bible saying that God will punish those who do not believe. 

But that is off topic. Did you watch the video?

 

 

There are passages in the Koran that tells Muslims that Allah states that they are to smile and talk peace on outside, but to keep Jihad in their hearts, as Allah will one day destroy all unbelievers!

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On 7/30/2020 at 10:06 AM, DaChaser said:

Yes

There are passages in the Koran that tells Muslims that Allah states that they are to smile and talk peace on outside, but to keep Jihad in their hearts, as Allah will one day destroy all unbelievers!

Can you give me a reference to those verses? Thanks.

 

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Taqiya is the practice of dissimulation within mostly in Shia Islam although Sunnis (Muda'rat) can also under certain situations. 

Kitman, Tawriya, Muruna are also other terms used for justified lying around anyone who isn't Muslim.

These are touched on in the Quran but are mostly all taught in the Hadith i.e. the sayings of Muhammad which Islamic jurisprudence is built upon.

And also, Christians do not want to lie to and murder Muslims and send them to hell like the other way around. This is not considered a good thing to do to "infidels" like it is in Islam.

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5 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Qur'an Sanctifies Lying: "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them."

From the research I have done this does not appear in the Qur'an. It appears in Ibn Kathir's writings. He lived in the 14th century. Ibn Kathir was an influetncial  historian. So, if my research is correct it is an error to attribute this verse to the Qur'an. 

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3 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

From the research I have done this does not appear in the Qur'an. It appears in Ibn Kathir's writings. He lived in the 14th century. Ibn Kathir was an influetncial  historian. So, if my research is correct it is an error to attribute this verse to the Qur'an. 

You are correct, but believe its in the Hadith, as Muslims see the Koran and hadith as equally valid to them!

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Posted (edited)

All the replies on what is or is not in the Qur'an really have little or nothing to do with the original post. 

The Emirates are much more liberal in their Muslim theology than, say Saudi Arabia. This is easily seen from their lack of restrictions on foreigners, especially woman. In my humble opinion the driving force behind much of what they do, just like here, is money. We cannot lump all Muslims under one test, just as we cannot do the same with all Christians. 

 

Edited by Bouncing Bill
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On 8/2/2020 at 6:15 AM, Bouncing Bill said:

All the replies on what is or is not in the Qur'an really have little or nothing to do with the original post. 

The Emirates are much more liberal in their Muslim theology than, say Saudi Arabia. This is easily seen from their lack of restrictions on foreigners, especially woman. In my humble opinion the driving force behind much of what they do, just like here, is money. We cannot lump all Muslims under one test, just as we cannot do the same with all Christians. 

 

The Islam practiced today in Saudi Arabia is true Islam, as they follow what Allah and Muhhamed taught the most!

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17 hours ago, DaChaser said:

The Islam practiced today in Saudi Arabia is true Islam, as they follow what Allah and Muhhamed taught the most!

I am not sure that is true. The Shia wold certainly disagree. They follow the teaching of the Wahhabi school of theology. Just like Christianity there are various school of theology. Others would say they are the ones that most follow the teachings of Mohammed. The Wahhabi school of theology began with Muslim scholar, Muhammad bin Abd al. Wahhab. He, a Sunni, lived in the 17th century. He and his theology are very puritanical and anyone who does not believe as they do are their enemy. I do not believe Mohammed taught this. He called Christian, Jews and Muslims 'People of the Book'. The Quran calls Jews "people of the book' 31 times. 

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4 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I am not sure that is true. The Shia wold certainly disagree. They follow the teaching of the Wahhabi school of theology. Just like Christianity there are various school of theology. Others would say they are the ones that most follow the teachings of Mohammed. The Wahhabi school of theology began with Muslim scholar, Muhammad bin Abd al. Wahhab. He, a Sunni, lived in the 17th century. He and his theology are very puritanical and anyone who does not believe as they do are their enemy. I do not believe Mohammed taught this. He called Christian, Jews and Muslims 'People of the Book'. The Quran calls Jews "people of the book' 31 times. 

Allah told Muhhammed that he was to spread the truth of Islam by the sword to all, and that unbelievers were to submit or be killed off, while Christians and Jews could pay taxes and live, but be second class under Islam!

Allah not the God of the Bible, nor was Muhhammed a true prophet!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Allah told Muhhammed that he was to spread the truth of Islam by the sword to all, and that unbelievers were to submit or be killed off, while Christians and Jews could pay taxes and live, but be second class under Islam!

Allah not the God of the Bible, nor was Muhhammed a true prophet!

And Mohammed told his followers to treat all people of the book well. May be a contradiction.

Oh, and they accept Jesus as a prophet. The trace themselves back to Abraham and Ishamel. Now I've heard people say  that Allah is not the god of the Bible. However, that is not necessarily true. Allah in Arabic means God. There was a Baptist pastor at the seminary in Prague one year from Nigeria. He was a master teacher. He could take a complex subject and teach it in a simple way that made it understandable. I often heard him pray in his Nigerian language and in his language. He would use the word Allah as the Nigerian word for God. That was a revelation to me. I asked him about it and he confirmed that in his native language the word for God is Allah. So, it is not restricted to Islam. So, if the Qua'an was translated into English where it says Allah the translation would be God. 

I completely agree that Mohammed was not a true prophet. I agree their understanding of Christ, though they consider him the 2nd greatest prophet, is not correct. I also know that not all Muslims are radical, fundamentalists bent on destroying all who do not agree with them. Just like some Christians, those radicals have given a black eye to all.

image.png.919748f662da1cbb404ef63d87128877.png

This is an excellent book on the three faiths, the 'people of the book.'

Edited by Bouncing Bill
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Bill, I think defending Islam is not a good thing, or even appropriate for this forum. Islam is and always has been a murderous false religion. Their history proves this is true and it is true today also. It is a favorite ruse for those that try to defend Islam to always try to put forth the idea that not all Muslims are radical; I and many other people, both Christian and non-Christian simply do not believe that propaganda. Well I remember seeing the gleeful spectacle of thousands cheering in the streets when the Twin Towers came down, that is the real Islam.

For you to try to compare Christians to murderous Islam by saying Christians have done these atrocities too is not only untrue, it is wrong.

So, in closing, if you would like to continue with your original post topic, please do so, but without zeroing in on Islam and then defending it to Baptists on this board.

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20 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

And Mohammed told his followers to treat all people of the book well. May be a contradiction.

Oh, and they accept Jesus as a prophet. The trace themselves back to Abraham and Ishamel. Now I've heard people say  that Allah is not the god of the Bible. However, that is not necessarily true. Allah in Arabic means God. There was a Baptist pastor at the seminary in Prague one year from Nigeria. He was a master teacher. He could take a complex subject and teach it in a simple way that made it understandable. I often heard him pray in his Nigerian language and in his language. He would use the word Allah as the Nigerian word for God. That was a revelation to me. I asked him about it and he confirmed that in his native language the word for God is Allah. So, it is not restricted to Islam. So, if the Qua'an was translated into English where it says Allah the translation would be God. 

I completely agree that Mohammed was not a true prophet. I agree their understanding of Christ, though they consider him the 2nd greatest prophet, is not correct. I also know that not all Muslims are radical, fundamentalists bent on destroying all who do not agree with them. Just like some Christians, those radicals have given a black eye to all.

image.png.919748f662da1cbb404ef63d87128877.png

This is an excellent book on the three faiths, the 'people of the book.'

Those such as Isis though are the closest to what their prophet Muhhamed taught, as Islam is commissioned by Allah to take over the world, and that is to be done by extreme force of need be!

4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bill, I think defending Islam is not a good thing, or even appropriate for this forum. Islam is and always has been a murderous false religion. Their history proves this is true and it is true today also. It is a favorite ruse for those that try to defend Islam to always try to put forth the idea that not all Muslims are radical; I and many other people, both Christian and non-Christian simply do not believe that propaganda. Well I remember seeing the gleeful spectacle of thousands cheering in the streets when the Twin Towers came down, that is the real Islam.

For you to try to compare Christians to murderous Islam by saying Christians have done these atrocities too is not only untrue, it is wrong.

So, in closing, if you would like to continue with your original post topic, please do so, but without zeroing in on Islam and then defending it to Baptists on this board.

Islam is a Satanic counterfeit of the the messiah and real Gospel, as the angel that appeared to Muhhammed and gave to him those revelations was no doubt same one that appeared to adam and Eve and to others such as Joseph Smith!

20 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

And Mohammed told his followers to treat all people of the book well. May be a contradiction.

Oh, and they accept Jesus as a prophet. The trace themselves back to Abraham and Ishamel. Now I've heard people say  that Allah is not the god of the Bible. However, that is not necessarily true. Allah in Arabic means God. There was a Baptist pastor at the seminary in Prague one year from Nigeria. He was a master teacher. He could take a complex subject and teach it in a simple way that made it understandable. I often heard him pray in his Nigerian language and in his language. He would use the word Allah as the Nigerian word for God. That was a revelation to me. I asked him about it and he confirmed that in his native language the word for God is Allah. So, it is not restricted to Islam. So, if the Qua'an was translated into English where it says Allah the translation would be God. 

I completely agree that Mohammed was not a true prophet. I agree their understanding of Christ, though they consider him the 2nd greatest prophet, is not correct. I also know that not all Muslims are radical, fundamentalists bent on destroying all who do not agree with them. Just like some Christians, those radicals have given a black eye to all.

image.png.919748f662da1cbb404ef63d87128877.png

This is an excellent book on the three faiths, the 'people of the book.'

Islam does not worship Yahweh, but a satanic counterfeit!

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6 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Those such as Isis though are the closest to what their prophet Muhhamed taught, as Islam is commissioned by Allah to take over the world, and that is to be done by extreme force of need be!

Islam is a Satanic counterfeit of the the messiah and real Gospel, as the angel that appeared to Muhhammed and gave to him those revelations was no doubt same one that appeared to adam and Eve and to others such as Joseph Smith!

Islam does not worship Yahweh, but a satanic counterfeit!

I do not feel that I am defending Islam, but I do think there is a lot of misinformation being given. I have read too much history, listened to too many  lectures, both religious and secular, as well as becoming friends with Arab-Christians from the Mid-East, to buy into the popular beliefs of our day. My personal belief is that if the British and French had followed up on their promises to the Arabs during World War I we would have a much more peaceful world. But, they reigned on those promises and that led to the founding of radical groups, such as the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt that began in the 1920's. Since that time no Arab government has trusted the promises of any Western national government. World War I never really ended. The fighting ended, but the decisions made after the war led to Hitler, the Communist Soviet Union, and radical Muslim groups. 

The best witness we have for Christ is love not distrust and hate. A good example of this was the response of the International Baptist Theological Seminary when during a conflict many people were left homeless. The seminary took in homeless women and children, many who were Muslim. They were treated well and reported their treatment to the mosque leadership. The leaders of the mosque came to them and said, tell us why you took the women in and treated them well. We have never seen Christians do this and we would not take Christians in. This opened a continuing peaceful dialogue between the two groups. If we are ever to influence Muslims to come to Christ we will have to do it through love, not hate. 

I do not believe ISIS is close to what Mohammed taught any more than the IRA in Ireland was close to what Jesus taught. Both would defend themselves by saying they were close to the the teachings of their religion. It all boils down to a person or groups interpretation of their scriptures. I believe there are a fair number of groups who call themselves Christian, but IMHO, they are simply Christian in name only and there are such groups who claim millions of members. I won't go into what I think these people are as it would open up too many 'rabbit tracks' that people would start down but that lead nowhere.

I have no problem with you description of the false prophets.

 

Edited by Bouncing Bill
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