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I never delved into a study or even a conversation about the Holiness Denominations or Churches. I thought they were all Pentecostal but, a question by a new member made me take a second look. They have a doctrine I can't agree with, the removal of the sin nature which causes a person to commit sin.

That is not what I understand from Paul's discourse in Romans 7. It's not what I've experienced as a saved by grace through faith Christian either. Everything I read in the N.T. points me to believe sanctification is ongoing while we remain in the flesh. Everything else about them seems to be Bible based.

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Posted (edited)

I have a friend who pastors a KJV bible believing Baptist church in Upstate NY who was once part of the Holiness movement.

They do believe in a second work of grace i.e. eradication of sin nature and are Arminian in theology. They hold men like John Wesley and Charles Finney in very high regards almost to a place of cult status for the former.

My friend told me some really wild stories about what goes on in those churches including one time when two women preachers were preaching at the same time screeching away trying to outdo each other.

He also said they had a mantra:

"No hose, no toes and no shows".

The "hose" being pantyhose, the "toes" being shoes on women that revealed their toes and the "shows" being TV/movies. If you broke any of these rules you were going to hell.

My pastor friend did carry over one standard they hold which he believed was scriptural and that was women were to never cut their hair. They could slightly cut the ends to keep it neat but the rest was to be left as "a covering". His wife's hair is huge.

There may be Holiness/Pentecostal hybrids (I once visited a Baptist/Charismatic church) but normally they are two separate denominations.

Edited by SureWord
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On 7/21/2020 at 10:23 PM, SureWord said:

I have a friend who pastors a KJV bible believing Baptist church in Upstate NY who was once part of the Holiness movement.

They do believe in a second work of grace i.e. eradication of sin nature and are Arminian in theology. They hold men like John Wesley and Charles Finney in very high regards almost to a place of cult status for the former.

My friend told me some really wild stories about what goes on in those churches including one time when two women preachers were preaching at the same time screeching away trying to outdo each other.

He also said they had a mantra:

"No hose, no toes and no shows".

The "hose" being pantyhose, the "toes" being shoes on women that revealed their toes and the "shows" being TV/movies. If you broke any of these rules you were going to hell.

My pastor friend did carry over one standard they hold which he believed was scriptural and that was women were to never cut their hair. They could slightly cut the ends to keep it neat but the rest was to be left as "a covering". His wife's hair is huge.

There may be Holiness/Pentecostal hybrids (I once visited a Baptist/Charismatic church) but normally they are two separate denominations.

Thanks, never had any experience with it.

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On 7/21/2020 at 5:36 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

I never delved into a study or even a conversation about the Holiness Denominations or Churches. I thought they were all Pentecostal but, a question by a new member made me take a second look. They have a doctrine I can't agree with, the removal of the sin nature which causes a person to commit sin.

That is not what I understand from Paul's discourse in Romans 7. It's not what I've experienced as a saved by grace through faith Christian either. Everything I read in the N.T. points me to believe sanctification is ongoing while we remain in the flesh. Everything else about them seems to be Bible based.

They would hold to the second act of grace, where the person would be so commited to Christ that God would give them a state of sinless perfection!

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I liked and agree with most of Wesley's 'book'? on Christian Perfection... I saw it online somewhere and what I read back then (whenever) was solid Biblical experience and description.    

Not about the holiness movement,  but "holy",  doesn't holy mean "set apart"...

As we are to be "set apart" the same way Jesus was set apart, different from and not of the world any longer - no longer desiring the things of the world ?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2020 at 9:35 AM, DaChaser said:

They would hold to the second act of grace, where the person would be so commited to Christ that God would give them a state of sinless perfection!

I know there is saving grace (Ephesians 2:8) and continuing in grace (Acts 13:43) ,growing in grace (2 Peter 3:18), and sustaining grace (2 Thessalonians 3:3). Do you mean that they hold to further 'filling' of the Holy Spirit?

Edited by 1Timothy115
added scripture
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11 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

I liked and agree with most of Wesley's 'book'? on Christian Perfection... I saw it online somewhere and what I read back then (whenever) was solid Biblical experience and description.    

Not about the holiness movement,  but "holy",  doesn't holy mean "set apart"...

As we are to be "set apart" the same way Jesus was set apart, different from and not of the world any longer - no longer desiring the things of the world ?

I don't fully understand. 

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They believe that you can live a perfectly sinless the rest of your life but if you backslide you will go to hell. Of course, they pile on unscriptural rules and regulations as evidence of their holiness. Don't dare watch a movie or wear panty hose or you'll go to hell (interestingly, the internet seems to be OK though). My pastor friend told me all about them. He was a member of a Holiness church and even went to one of their colleges in Florida (Hobe Sound Bible College) . In his church they didn't even preach from a bible but rather some manual of church standards.

As far as their reverence of John Wesley and Charles Finney writings he said most of them never even read their material and they took it way, way behind what Wesley and Finney taught. It was all puffed up self righteousness and emotionalism like you'd find in Charismatic churches.

It's not a thing about "striving to live holy" or "forsaking all sin" but an divine act of God changing your flesh to where you never sin again. He had one member of his church tell him he hadn't sinned in years.

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A lie is dependent on someone to believe it, but truth stands by itself. If that church member actually said and believed that he had not sinned in years, he is calling God a liar according to God's Holy Word.

1 John 1:10 (KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

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22 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

I know there is saving grace (Ephesians 2:8) and continuing in grace (Acts 13:43) ,growing in grace (2 Peter 3:18), and sustaining grace (2 Thessalonians 3:3). Do you mean that they hold to further 'filling' of the Holy Spirit?

They hold to a charismatic view of the second act of Grace, but minus speaking in tongues part!

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