Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted July 15, 2020 Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2020 Bill, there is no Scripture that says there was a church before Pentecost. But rather it is a teaching derived from the events of Scripture. In the following Scriptures I list you will see the unfolding of the beginnings of the first church that Jesus built. ************************************************ 1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. So Apostles were set in the church first. Now we have to ask when this happened to show that there was a church before Penetecost. Luke 6:13 (KJV) And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; With Jesus' choice of Apostles He began the first church, as he had promised. Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Pentecost was the empowering of the already existing church. We see His instructions to His disciples to wait for this empowering here: Luke 24:49 (KJV) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Alan and Rebecca 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted July 15, 2020 Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2020 I wrote a devotional on this subject that can be found here. Rebecca and Alan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaChaser Posted July 16, 2020 Members Share Posted July 16, 2020 18 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:  I agree the first Lord's Supper was before Pentecost. Catholics believe that the meeting in the Upper Room was the first meeting of a Christian Church. I know of no other place where nor have I ever heard anyone call that a church meeting. Can you give me scripture where a Christian church is said to exist before Pentecost? I'd appreciate it. Groups met after Christ's ascension. no question about that.Where they a Christian church? I do not remember any scripture or other writing from that time calling that meeting the church. It may be that in the Apocrypha may speak to this, but I am not aware of it doing so. As I said above, Catholics teach that the meeting in the upper room was the first meeting of a Christian church.  The first place in the New Testament that I know of where the word [translated of course] church or ekklesia is used is Matt. 16:18. Christ used the term. In contest he used future tense, not present. In Antioch, Acts 11:20-21, the term Christian is used as Christian Church. My understanding is followers were first called Christian there. Paul visited Antioch a number of times. There was some type of unfortunate incident at Antioch, a disagreement between Paul and Peter. When Paul left after this incident he never returned to that city and church. It is in his letter to the Galatians,  where he speaks of that incident and then writes his great passage on works and faith. Rome teaches that the New Covenant was instituted at that Supper, but the NC went into effect after the death and resurrection of Jesus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 30 minutes ago, DaChaser said: Rome teaches that the New Covenant was instituted at that Supper, but the NC went into effect after the death and resurrection of Jesus! I am not disagreeing or arguing but I would like for you to show me definitive references to that. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 On 7/14/2020 at 12:08 PM, DaChaser said: The Church had accepted as Canon for OT same books as at the time of Jesus, and all but 4 of the Canon NT books had been received and accepted by end of first century! From my research the last book accepted into the canon was 2nd Peter, date 110 AD. There were other books circulating in Christian churches that were not accepted into the canon. There were various reasons for their not being included. My understanding is that Revelation made the cut by one vote. This was in the 4th century. To this day the Eastern Orthodox will not use Revelation in public worship. There are a number of canons. Luther moved Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch from the canon to a separate section which he called Apocrypha. Luther's smaller canon was not accepted by all Protestants. From Wikipeida: Final dogmatic articulations of the canons were made at the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[51] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Eastern Orthodox. Other traditions, while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to an exact year in which their canons were complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons. I did not realize this is such a complex subject until I began digging into it the last few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted July 16, 2020 Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2020 22 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: Â IÂ know of no other place where nor have I ever heard anyone call that a church meeting. Bill, It is a simple deduction. The Lords Supper is one of only two church ordinances. If the Lord's Supper was partaken of it had to be in church capacity. The church has to "meet" to partake of this ordinance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 50 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said: Bill, It is a simple deduction. The Lords Supper is one of only two church ordinances. If the Lord's Supper was partaken of it had to be in church capacity. The church has to "meet" to partake of this ordinance. I used the word deduction one time some year ago when talking about a Biblical topic. The response was I was called a flaming liberal heretic to do so. Just can't win sometimes. LOL I am not at all sure the disciples would have recognized the meal as an ordnance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted July 16, 2020 Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2020 Bill, whether they recognized it as an ordinance or not is not the point. The point is that Jesus instituted it at that time and it is a church ordinance. So, you can believe what you will, I have said enough and probably too much on the subject. Buy inserting what I did I got this thread off topic, and for that I apologize to the OP, since his topic was about the canon of Scripture, not when the church began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaChaser Posted July 17, 2020 Members Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 7/16/2020 at 8:50 AM, Bouncing Bill said: From my research the last book accepted into the canon was 2nd Peter, date 110 AD. There were other books circulating in Christian churches that were not accepted into the canon. There were various reasons for their not being included. My understanding is that Revelation made the cut by one vote. This was in the 4th century. To this day the Eastern Orthodox will not use Revelation in public worship. There are a number of canons. Luther moved Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch from the canon to a separate section which he called Apocrypha. Luther's smaller canon was not accepted by all Protestants. From Wikipeida: Final dogmatic articulations of the canons were made at the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[51] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Eastern Orthodox. Other traditions, while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to an exact year in which their canons were complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons. I did not realize this is such a complex subject until I began digging into it the last few days. The 4 most disputed NT canon books were Hebrews, due to not knowing who wrote it, 2 peter, not sure if peter was author, James, due to some see him disagreeing with paul, and revelation, as some did not see John as author! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, DaChaser said: The 4 most disputed NT canon books were Hebrews, due to not knowing who wrote it, 2 peter, not sure if peter was author, James, due to some see him disagreeing with paul, and revelation, as some did not see John as author! Very interesting. Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how many canons there are, but I know the Catholic canon and the Protestant canon are not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaChaser Posted July 17, 2020 Members Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: Very interesting. Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how many canons there are, but I know the Catholic canon and the Protestant canon are not the same. The Catholics have added/included non inspired books into their canon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, DaChaser said: The Catholics have added/included non inspired books into their canon.... I am not arguing with you. What makes you believe they are not inspired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaChaser Posted July 17, 2020 Members Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Bouncing Bill said: I am not arguing with you. What makes you believe they are not inspired? Neither the Lord Jesus, nor the Apostles, nor the Early Church fathers recognized them as inspired! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, DaChaser said: Neither the Lord Jesus, nor the Apostles, nor the Early Church fathers recognized them as inspired! Which books did Jesus considered inspired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaChaser Posted July 18, 2020 Members Share Posted July 18, 2020 17 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: Which books did Jesus considered inspired? Those of the OT canon recognized by the Pharisees of that time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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