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Canon of Scripture.


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9 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

So your out soul-winning, and someone asks you "How" and "Who" selected the Canon of Scripture. Whats your first thought? 

The entire Canon of Books were recorded down by end of first century, and were pretty much universally used and recognized early second century!

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I missed the “How“ or “Who” in your answer. 

I'm sorry, I thought I was clear in avoiding the "How" or "Why" of such a subject while soulwinning. Are you there to witness to them or get sidetracked in a theological debate?

Was my post deleted?

 

Edited by SureWord
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26 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I'm sorry, I thought I was clear in avoiding the "How" or "Why" of such a subject while soulwinning. Are you there to witness to them or get sidetracked in a theological debate?

Was my post deleted?

 

I wasn’t quoting you, I was quoting DaChaser, I haven’t seen your post. 

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8 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I wasn’t quoting you, I was quoting DaChaser, I haven’t seen your post. 

Well, my post must have been deleted I guess or was never posted to begin with.

In a nutshell, those kind of questions are usually someone (Satan?) trying to deter you from the gospel message but maybe not always. I gave an example of someone I work with that brought up the translations issue when I tried witnessing to them.

So my first thought would be that the "Who" and "How" was to get me off the gospel message. I would tell them I'll try to answer his questions afterward.

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1 hour ago, SureWord said:

Well, my post must have been deleted I guess or was never posted to begin with.

In a nutshell, those kind of questions are usually someone (Satan?) trying to deter you from the gospel message but maybe not always. I gave an example of someone I work with that brought up the translations issue when I tried witnessing to them.

So my first thought would be that the "Who" and "How" was to get me off the gospel message. I would tell them I'll try to answer his questions afterward.

Did anyone in Scripture ever question if Scripture is God's Word , as far as you know ?

I do not remember hearing about anyone (anyone set apart holy to God,  by God) who did not believe that Scripture is God's Word.  (i.e. Truth, True, Faithful)

Perhaps even the enemies of God fully acknowledged that Scripture is God's Word ?

But today,  compare if possible what we know about in our lifetimes,  and previous recent generations - how many deny God's Word (everyone practically) ?   

They chose to trust or to serve something else?

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The First Council of Nicaea, (325),  meeting in ancient Nicaea (now İznik, Turkey). It was called by the unbaptized emperor Constantine I, He presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.

The canon was pretty much agreed on at that time. The Orthodox Church as and the Western Canon is not identical. 

 

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:55 AM, Bouncing Bill said:

The First Council of Nicaea, (325),  meeting in ancient Nicaea (now İznik, Turkey). It was called by the unbaptized emperor Constantine I, He presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.

The canon was pretty much agreed on at that time. The Orthodox Church as and the Western Canon is not identical. 

 

The Church had accepted as Canon for OT same books as at the time of Jesus, and all but 4 of the Canon NT books had been received and accepted by end of first century!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

The Church had accepted as Canon for OT same books as at the time of Jesus, and all but 4 of the Canon NT books had been received and accepted by end of first century!

 

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

The Church had accepted as Canon for OT same books as at the time of Jesus, and all but 4 of the Canon NT books had been received and accepted by end of first century!

I'm not arguing with you. But please give me a reference so I can read the information you give. 

I am not sure what you mean 'at the time of Jesus.' Jesus had ascended before any of the New Testament was written. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

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22 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

 

I'm not arguing with you. But please give me a reference so I can read the information you give. 

I am not sure what you mean 'at the time of Jesus.' Jesus had ascended before any of the New Testament was written. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

The Church accepted the OT canon as fixed at time of Jesus....

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37 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The Church accepted the OT canon as fixed at time of Jesus....

What church are you speaking about? To my knowledge there was no Christian church while Christ was on earth. He attended the synagogue, even during his travels. I remember my pastor, decades ago, preaching a series of sermons on Jesus using "as was his custom". Luke 4:16 is an example:

Luke 4:16 -- So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

I believe there are ten verses speaking of Jesus attending, or going to a synagogue. 

 

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4 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

What church are you speaking about? To my knowledge there was no Christian church while Christ was on earth. He attended the synagogue, even during his travels. I remember my pastor, decades ago, preaching a series of sermons on Jesus using "as was his custom". Luke 4:16 is an example:

Luke 4:16 -- So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

I believe there are ten verses speaking of Jesus attending, or going to a synagogue. 

 

Church as in the group that was created on day of Pentecost!

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6 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Church as in the group that was created on day of Pentecost!

Nonsense; the first church was already in existence before Pentecost. The Lord's Supper is a church ordinance and was partaken of before Pentecost.

Luke 22:19 (KJV) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

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2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Nonsense; the first church was already in existence before Pentecost. The Lord's Supper is a church ordinance and was partaken of before Pentecost.

Luke 22:19 (KJV) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Nonsense; the first church was already in existence before Pentecost. The Lord's Supper is a church ordinance and was partaken of before Pentecost.

Luke 22:19 (KJV) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

I agree the first Lord's Supper was before Pentecost. Catholics believe that the meeting in the Upper Room was the first meeting of a Christian Church. I know of no other place where nor have I ever heard anyone call that a church meeting. Can you give me scripture where a Christian church is said to exist before Pentecost? I'd appreciate it. 

Groups met after Christ's ascension. no question about that.Where they a Christian church? I do not remember any scripture or other writing from that time calling that meeting the church. It may be that in the Apocrypha may speak to this, but I am not aware of it doing so. As I said above, Catholics teach that the meeting in the upper room was the first meeting of a Christian church.  The first place in the New Testament that I know of where the word [translated of course] church or ekklesia is used is Matt. 16:18. Christ used the term. In contest he used future tense, not present. In Antioch, Acts 11:20-21, the term Christian is used as Christian Church. My understanding is followers were first called Christian there. Paul visited Antioch a number of times. There was some type of unfortunate incident at Antioch, a disagreement between Paul and Peter. When Paul left after this incident he never returned to that city and church. It is in his letter to the Galatians,  where he speaks of that incident and then writes his great passage on works and faith. 

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Bill, there is no Scripture that says there was a church before Pentecost. But rather it is a teaching derived from the events of Scripture. In the following Scriptures I list you will see the unfolding of the beginnings of the first church that Jesus built.
************************************************

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

So Apostles were set in the church first. Now we have to ask when this happened to show that there was a church before Penetecost.

Luke 6:13 (KJV) And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

With Jesus' choice of Apostles He began the first church, as he had promised.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Pentecost was the empowering of the already existing church. We see His instructions to His disciples to wait for this empowering here:

Luke 24:49 (KJV) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

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18 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

 

I agree the first Lord's Supper was before Pentecost. Catholics believe that the meeting in the Upper Room was the first meeting of a Christian Church. I know of no other place where nor have I ever heard anyone call that a church meeting. Can you give me scripture where a Christian church is said to exist before Pentecost? I'd appreciate it. 

Groups met after Christ's ascension. no question about that.Where they a Christian church? I do not remember any scripture or other writing from that time calling that meeting the church. It may be that in the Apocrypha may speak to this, but I am not aware of it doing so. As I said above, Catholics teach that the meeting in the upper room was the first meeting of a Christian church.  The first place in the New Testament that I know of where the word [translated of course] church or ekklesia is used is Matt. 16:18. Christ used the term. In contest he used future tense, not present. In Antioch, Acts 11:20-21, the term Christian is used as Christian Church. My understanding is followers were first called Christian there. Paul visited Antioch a number of times. There was some type of unfortunate incident at Antioch, a disagreement between Paul and Peter. When Paul left after this incident he never returned to that city and church. It is in his letter to the Galatians,  where he speaks of that incident and then writes his great passage on works and faith. 

Rome teaches that the New Covenant was instituted at that Supper, but the NC went into effect after the death and resurrection of Jesus!

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30 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Rome teaches that the New Covenant was instituted at that Supper, but the NC went into effect after the death and resurrection of Jesus!

I am not disagreeing or arguing but I would like for you to show me definitive references to that. Thanks. 

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On 7/14/2020 at 12:08 PM, DaChaser said:

The Church had accepted as Canon for OT same books as at the time of Jesus, and all but 4 of the Canon NT books had been received and accepted by end of first century!

From my research the last book accepted into the canon was 2nd Peter, date 110 AD. There were other books circulating in Christian churches that were not accepted into the canon. There were various reasons for their not being included. My understanding is that Revelation made the cut by one vote. This was in the 4th century. To this day the Eastern Orthodox will not use Revelation in public worship. There are a number of canons. Luther moved Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch from the canon to a separate section which he called Apocrypha. Luther's smaller canon was not accepted by all Protestants.

From Wikipeida:

Final dogmatic articulations of the canons were made at the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[51] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Eastern Orthodox. Other traditions, while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to an exact year in which their canons were complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons.

I did not realize this is such a complex subject until I began digging into it the last few days.

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22 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

 

I know of no other place where nor have I ever heard anyone call that a church meeting.

Bill,

It is a simple deduction. The Lords Supper is one of only two church ordinances. If the Lord's Supper was partaken of it had to be in church capacity. The church has to "meet" to partake of this ordinance.

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50 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bill,

It is a simple deduction. The Lords Supper is one of only two church ordinances. If the Lord's Supper was partaken of it had to be in church capacity. The church has to "meet" to partake of this ordinance.

I used the word deduction one time some year ago when talking about a Biblical topic. The response was I was called a flaming liberal heretic to do so. Just can't win sometimes. LOL

I am not at all sure the disciples would have recognized the meal as an ordnance. 

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Bill, whether they recognized it as an ordinance or not is not the point. The point is that Jesus instituted it at that time and it is a church ordinance. So, you can believe what you will, I have said enough and probably too much on the subject. Buy inserting what I did I got this thread off topic, and for that I apologize to the OP, since his topic was about the canon of Scripture, not when the church began.

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On 7/16/2020 at 8:50 AM, Bouncing Bill said:

From my research the last book accepted into the canon was 2nd Peter, date 110 AD. There were other books circulating in Christian churches that were not accepted into the canon. There were various reasons for their not being included. My understanding is that Revelation made the cut by one vote. This was in the 4th century. To this day the Eastern Orthodox will not use Revelation in public worship. There are a number of canons. Luther moved Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch from the canon to a separate section which he called Apocrypha. Luther's smaller canon was not accepted by all Protestants.

From Wikipeida:

Final dogmatic articulations of the canons were made at the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[51] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Eastern Orthodox. Other traditions, while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to an exact year in which their canons were complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons.

I did not realize this is such a complex subject until I began digging into it the last few days.

The 4 most disputed NT canon books were Hebrews, due to not knowing who wrote it, 2 peter, not sure if peter was author, James, due to some see him disagreeing with paul, and revelation, as some did not see John as author!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

The 4 most disputed NT canon books were Hebrews, due to not knowing who wrote it, 2 peter, not sure if peter was author, James, due to some see him disagreeing with paul, and revelation, as some did not see John as author!

Very interesting. Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how many canons there are, but I know the Catholic canon and the Protestant canon are not the same. 

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2 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Very interesting. Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how many canons there are, but I know the Catholic canon and the Protestant canon are not the same. 

The Catholics have added/included non inspired books into their canon....

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