Jump to content
Online Baptist

Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise?


Recommended Posts

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

According to the following OT verses translating the Hebrew word sheol, sheol is not just the place for the departed wicked, but the righteous will also be there.  Sheol, then, is the place for all of the departed dead.

Jacob went to sheol - Gen 37:35 -- And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Sons of Korah (the godly ones whom God used to give us Ps 49) went to sheol - Ps 49:15 -- But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah.

Jonah in type, inside the belly of the great fish, went to sheol - Jon 2:2 -- And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I, and thou heardest my voice. [NOTE: this reference is important because it has typological implications for the Lord Jesus.]

King David would go to sheol - Ps 16:10 -- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Since sheol is the place for all of the departed dead, it can be said that both Lazarus and the Rich man were there [NOTE: hades, translated "hell" in Luke 16:23, is the NT Greek equivalent of the OT Hebrew sheol]. Luke 16 describes the place large enough that they were "afar off" from one another, that the Rich man had to shout ("cry") to be heard, that Abraham would have to "send" Lazarus to get to the Rich man, and that there was a "great gulf fixed" between them. While one might infer that they are in two separate places because of the distance between them, the OT teaching of sheol suggests otherwise.

With this understanding, the conclusion can be drawn that there are two parts (compartments, rooms, areas, etc.) to sheol: a place for the departed wicked, and a place for the departed righteous. Immediately following His crucifixion, Jesus took the righteous out of sheol and lead them to heaven [Eph 4:8-10 (while neither the words "hell" nor "hades" are mentioned in Eph 4:8-10, since Jesus "ascended up far above all heavens," He must have "descended..." for below the opposite of heaven: hell/hades/sheol)]. The only people now in sheol are the departed wicked.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
9 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

The reason I consider them two sides of one place is because they can see each other and communicate back and forth, but can’t cross to the other side. I suppose I am ok with saying two different places? Right next to each other.. 

Certainly I understand this conclusion on your part, since I was actually raised up through churches and schools that held the same viewpoint as you do.  However, the conclusion that you have presented is the very reason that I asked the following question earlier in the thread discusion --

13 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So, a question that relates to the original subject matter of the thread -- Can those in heaven observe the torment of those in hell?

Revelation 14:10 -- "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

1.  The holy angels and the Lamb (Christ) are residents of heaven.
2.  Those under God's wrath are "tormented with fire and brimstone" in the very presence of those heavenly residents.
3.  Yet those under God wrath are not themselves in heaven itself.
4.  Thus the conclusion seems valid that the torment of those in hell can be observed by the residents of heaven.

How would this impact your view of the account in Luke 16:19-31 that they could "see each other" and could "communicate back and forth," but could not "cross to" one another?  

From my own perspective this seems to allow that they were indeed in two different places, the rich man being in hell and Lazarus resting in/on Abraham's bosom/chest in heaven.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
50 minutes ago, DoctorDaveT said:

According to the following OT verses translating the Hebrew word sheol, sheol is not just the place for the departed wicked, but the righteous will also be there.  Sheol, then, is the place for all of the departed dead.

Jacob went to sheol - Gen 37:35 -- And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Sons of Korah (the godly ones whom God used to give us Ps 49) went to sheol - Ps 49:15 -- But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah.

Jonah in type, inside the belly of the great fish, went to sheol - Jon 2:2 -- And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I, and thou heardest my voice. [NOTE: this reference is important because it has typological implications for the Lord Jesus.]

King David would go to sheol - Ps 16:10 -- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Since sheol is the place for all of the departed dead, it can be said that both Lazarus and the Rich man were there [NOTE: hades, translated "hell" in Luke 16:23, is the NT Greek equivalent of the OT Hebrew sheol]. Luke 16 describes the place large enough that they were "afar off" from one another, that the Rich man had to shout ("cry") to be heard, that Abraham would have to "send" Lazarus to get to the Rich man, and that there was a "great gulf fixed" between them. While one might infer that they are in two separate places because of the distance between them, the OT teaching of sheol suggests otherwise.

With this understanding, the conclusion can be drawn that there are two parts (compartments, rooms, areas, etc.) to sheol: a place for the departed wicked, and a place for the departed righteous. Immediately following His crucifixion, Jesus took the righteous out of sheol and lead them to heaven [Eph 4:8-10 (while neither the words "hell" nor "hades" are mentioned in Eph 4:8-10, since Jesus "ascended up far above all heavens," He must have "descended..." for below the opposite of heaven: hell/hades/sheol)]. The only people now in sheol are the departed wicked.

This begs the question: Why did the KJV translators use the word "grave" in many cases in the OT? Were they wrong? Is it an "translation error"? The word "grave" in English means "a pit" or "carved out hole". When we think of the word we make no association with hell or Abraham's Bosom but rather a cemetary or graveyard.

I wonder if words in Hebrew can have multiple meanings just like in English and scholars are too strict in defining them a certain way. The word "grave" itself used as a noun  can mean either "the death of person" (as in "from cradle to grave" or "she's gonna put me in an early grave") or "a hole or place a person is buried".

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DoctorDaveT said:

According to the following OT verses translating the Hebrew word sheol, sheol is not just the place for the departed wicked, but the righteous will also be there.  Sheol, then, is the place for all of the departed dead.

Jacob went to sheol - Gen 37:35 -- And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Sons of Korah (the godly ones whom God used to give us Ps 49) went to sheol - Ps 49:15 -- But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah.

Jonah in type, inside the belly of the great fish, went to sheol - Jon 2:2 -- And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I, and thou heardest my voice. [NOTE: this reference is important because it has typological implications for the Lord Jesus.]

King David would go to sheol - Ps 16:10 -- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Since sheol is the place for all of the departed dead, it can be said that both Lazarus and the Rich man were there [NOTE: hades, translated "hell" in Luke 16:23, is the NT Greek equivalent of the OT Hebrew sheol]. Luke 16 describes the place large enough that they were "afar off" from one another, that the Rich man had to shout ("cry") to be heard, that Abraham would have to "send" Lazarus to get to the Rich man, and that there was a "great gulf fixed" between them. While one might infer that they are in two separate places because of the distance between them, the OT teaching of sheol suggests otherwise.

With this understanding, the conclusion can be drawn that there are two parts (compartments, rooms, areas, etc.) to sheol: a place for the departed wicked, and a place for the departed righteous. Immediately following His crucifixion, Jesus took the righteous out of sheol and lead them to heaven [Eph 4:8-10 (while neither the words "hell" nor "hades" are mentioned in Eph 4:8-10, since Jesus "ascended up far above all heavens," He must have "descended..." for below the opposite of heaven: hell/hades/sheol)]. The only people now in sheol are the departed wicked.

Brother Dave, as you indicated in your above posting, the most basic meaning for the Hebrew word "sheol" (as well as the Greek word "hades") is "the place of the dead."  As such, "sheol" can contextually mean one of two things:

1.  The grave itself, wherein the dead body is placed. (Even as the King James translators translated it in two of the passages that you referenced above, Genesis 37:35 & Psalm 49:15)
2.  The place of God's judgment against the wicked dead.

For this reason the translators chose most of the time to translate the Hebrew word "sheol" with the English word "hell" because it is an English that can also carry either meaning.  Even so, it is necessary for us to consider the context of each case wherein we find the word "hell" in order to discern whether it means the grave or the place of judgment in each given context.  As for me, I believe that every context which you have referenced above concerns the grave.  In both Genesis 37:35 and Psalm 49:15 it is specifically translated as such.  Furthermore, in Jonah 2:2 Jonah referred to the "belly" of hell, which in context is easily understood as the "belly" of the whale as his "grave-place."  Finally, in Psalm 16:10 it appears to me that David was praying, not for some resurrection after his death, but for the Lord to prevent him from dying by means of trouble that he was experiencing at the time.  Thus I believe that David was simply referring to the grave as a symbol of death, which is the reason why he employed the idea of "corruption," since the body deteriorates with "corruption" in the grave over time.

Now, the passage of Psalm 16:8-11 is also of significant interest since Peter quoted it in Acts 2:25-28 on the Day of Pentecost as a support for the resurrection and exaltation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  When he did so, he implied in Acts 2:29 that the passage was not completely fulfilled in the life of David, saying, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."  Herein we notice that Peter referenced David's death, burial, and sepulchre as evidential contradictives to David's prayer in Psalm 16:10.  David did indeed experience "hell" (the grave) as per his death and burial, and his body did indeed experience "corruption" as per his supulchre.  On the other hand, Peter then applied Psalm 16:10 as a form of prophetic utterance by David concerning Jesus the Christ's resurrection, saying in Acts 2:31, "He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."  Now, let us specifically notice that Peter added the word "flesh" in the phrase, "neither his flesh did see corruption."  As such, Peter under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit revealed that this passage referred to the body/flesh of the Lord, which would have experience corruption in the grave if it had continued therein, but did not because he was resurrected therefrom.

Let us then consider the parallelism of Hebrew poetry.  In Psalm 16:10 David presented the following parallelism:

"For thou wilt not . . . leave my soul . . . . . . . . . . in hell"
"neither wilt thou . . . suffer thine Holy One . . . to see corruption"

According to the parallelism of Hebrew poetry in Psalm 16:10, "hell" and "corruption" are parallel references, such that the "corruption" would have occurred "in hell."

Now let us consider the same parallelism in Peter's explanation within Acts 2:31:

"that his soul . . . . . . was not left in hell"
"neither his flesh . . . did see corruption"

According to this explanation of the parallelism, the "corruption" of "hell" relates to Christ Jesus' "flesh."  Thus I would conclude that the word "hell" simply references the grave in both of these contexts.

1 hour ago, DoctorDaveT said:

With this understanding, the conclusion can be drawn that there are two parts (compartments, rooms, areas, etc.) to sheol: a place for the departed wicked, and a place for the departed righteous. Immediately following His crucifixion, Jesus took the righteous out of sheol and lead them to heaven [Eph 4:8-10 (while neither the words "hell" nor "hades" are mentioned in Eph 4:8-10, since Jesus "ascended up far above all heavens," He must have "descended..." for below the opposite of heaven: hell/hades/sheol)]. The only people now in sheol are the departed wicked.

First, Ephesians 4:8 does NOT say that our Lord Jesus Christ took "the righteous out of 'sheol' and led them to heaven."  Rather, it says that "he led captivity [itself] captive."  Death is a form of "captivity;" and with his resurrection out of the dead, our Lord Jesus Christ acquired "captive" power over death.

Second, the claim that "since Jesus 'ascended up far above all heavens', he must have 'descended...' far below the opposite of heaven" is simply a conjectural addition to God's Own Word.  Since God's Own Word does not say it, you lack absolute authority to claim it.  Even so, by using such a word as "must" in your claim, you are implying absolute authority for your own conjectural claim, and thus are placing your conjecture on equal level of authority with God's Own Word.  That in itself is simply falsehood and offensive.  My counsel is that when you engage in some form of human conjecture, admit it.  Do NOT claim or imply absolute authority for your human conjecture.

Third, there is actually no logical (conjectural) requirement that ascending "far above all heavens" requires a descending far below the opposite.  In the first place, "far above all heavens" is further explained by the phrase "that he might fill all things;" and that phrase has been earlier defined in Ephesians 1:20-28 as a reference to our Lord Jesus Christ's ultimate exaltation of authority "above all."  In the second place, if the ascending "far above all heavens" logically requires a descending unto equal depth, then our Lord Jesus Christ would have had to descend unto the very deepest level of "hell's" outer darkness of fiery judgment.  This does not seem logical to me at all, but seems quite absurd.  In the third place, God's Own Word in Ephesians 4:9 actually tells us the place unto which our Lord Jesus Christ descended, so that we have no need for human conjecture at all.  Therein we learn that He descended "into the lower parts of the earth."  Since this references the earth itself, I myself conclude that this is a reference to the grave, wherein the upper parts of the earth is the ground upon which we walk, and wherein the lower parts of the earth is the grave under the ground.  (Note: I obviously do not hold that the judgment place "hell" is in the center of the earth, as so many who hold your viewpoint do.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar and spelling
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Now for a moment let us consider the word "paradise" as it is employed in the title of this thread.  Within the King James translation, the English word "paradise" is found a total of three times:

Luke 23:43 -- "And Jesus said unto him [the believing thief on the cross], Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Revelation 2:7 -- "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

So then, what do these passage Biblically teach us about the place called "paradise?"

1.  According to Luke 23:43 "paradise" was the place unto which our Lord Jesus Christ was going immediately after His death.

2.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:4 "paradise" is a place unto which one must be "caught UP."

3.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:2 in context with 2 Corinthians 12:4, "paradise" IS "the third heaven."

4.  According to Revelation 2:7 "paradise" is the place wherein "the tree of life" presently resides.

Seems to me from the actual teaching of God's Own Word on the matter that "paradise" IS heaven.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
35 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Thank you Brother Scott for your lengthy, in depth, replies on this subject. As I said said in a lot simpler terms above; "Context is king". And context was never more important than in this thread.

Brother Jim, thank you for your expression of appreciation.  As you well know, length and depth tend to be common descriptions for my postings.  Such is one of the reasons that I do not contribute quite as much as in the past on Online Baptist.  I just do not have as much time to be as thorough as I desire, so I pick my engagements more selectively.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Posted (edited)

So then, let us answer the title question of this thread discussion, allowing God's Word to say what it says --

Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise?
 

1.  After His death where did our Lord Jesus Christ's body go?  Answer -- In the tomb.

     Matthew 27:59-60 -- "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed."

2.  After His death where did our Lord Jesus Christ's spirit go?  Answer -- Into God the Father's hands.

     Luke 23:46 -- "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

3.  So then, after His death what "place" did our Lord Jesus Christ's spirit go?  Answer -- Paradise.

     Luke 23:43 -- "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

4.  So then, where is "paradise?"  Answer -- It is either equivalent to and a part of "the third heaven."

     2 Corinthians 12:2-4 -- "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.  And I knew such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

It seems fairly clear to me.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
spelling
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
  • Members
On 6/30/2020 at 11:20 PM, mbkjpreacher said:

Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? 

Into Abraham's Bosom, and then into Hades to take back the OT saints awaiting for him there!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...