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Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise?


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2 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? 

According to the conversation with the thief on the cross he went to Paradise. 

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 23:39-43

 

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10 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? 

It seems that finding out won't be 'easy' to do.   Tradition has overcome KJV Scripture in many ways.

For example/ to research/ seeking:  Unauthorized example from online search of opinions on the topic:

"... ...  ... referring to what the majority of Christians believe about heaven and hell. Almost all of what most Christians believe about heaven and hell come from Dante and pop culture.

Case in point: “hell” never occurs in the Bible at all. There is Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus (mentioned once), all of which are sometimes, erroneously, translated as hell."

 

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This question requires a discussion of sheol/hades and what happened following the crucifixion. [Sorry of this post seems long; trust me, I'm condensing to get to this....]

  1. Prior to the crucifixion, sheol (Heb word from OT)/hades (Greek word, equivalent to sheol from NT) was the place of the departed. Jesus describes this place with a great gulf fixed between the righteous ("Paradise") and wicked side ("Hell") in the story of Lazarus in Luke 16.
  2. Immediately following the crucifixion, Jesus went into sheol and "lead captivity captive" (Eph 4:8-10). This is when Jesus took "Paradise" out of sheol and all of the righteous were taken to Heaven, God's abode.
  3. Sheol is now only the place of the departed damned.
  4. Someday, sheol will be emptied out, never to be repopulated. At that day, all of those inhabitants will stand at the Great White Throne Judgment, and will be cast eternally into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:11-15).

With that in mind, did Jesus burn in Hell?

  1. Was His death on the cross enough to purchase eternal redemption? Heb 9 says "yes."
  2. Did He have to burn in hell for our redemption? Heb 9 suggests "no."
  3. Was He in hell, preaching to spirits in prison? IPe 3:19 says "yes" (if "prison" means "hell")
  4. But with the above understanding of hell/sheol, preaching in hell/sheol doesn't require fire.

While I recognize we may not all agree with this answer, No, Jesus didn't (nor did He have to) burn in Hell. Leading captivity captive, He went to Paradise.

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2 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

It seems that finding out won't be 'easy' to do.   Tradition has overcome KJV Scripture in many ways.

For example/ to research/ seeking:  Unauthorized example from online search of opinions on the topic:

"... ...  ... referring to what the majority of Christians believe about heaven and hell. Almost all of what most Christians believe about heaven and hell come from Dante and pop culture.

Case in point: “hell” never occurs in the Bible at all. There is Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus (mentioned once), all of which are sometimes, erroneously, translated as hell."

 

Using my Bible program I count 54 instances that specifically mention hell in the KJV. When someone writes that a word, such as hell, has been "erroneously translated", my mind puts them in the category of KJV translation correctors.

It has always amazed me that there are people who have the audacity to presume to "correct" or "know better" than the original translators.The usual result of this kind of thinking ends in the numerous "versions" published in an effort to correct The KJV, which needs no correction.

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4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Using my Bible program I count 54 instances that specifically mention hell in the KJV. When someone writes that a word, such as hell, has been "erroneously translated", my mind puts them in the category of KJV translation correctors.

It has always amazed me that there are people who have the audacity to presume to "correct" or "know better" than the original translators.The usual result of this kind of thinking ends in the numerous "versions" published in an effort to correct The KJV, which needs no correction.

Many times they should have translated hell as Sheol! It meant in the ground, down below...

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22 hours ago, SureWord said:

I always assumed he went to both places. To hell to preach to the spirits in prison and to paradise (i.e. Abraham's Bosom) to lead captivity captive.

I agree SureWord. 

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke  23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

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8 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Many times they should have translated hell as Sheol!

"Hell" is an English word, "Sheol" is not. It is a Hebrew word transliterated into roman letters from Hebrew letters. If it was translated into English then the correct English word would be "hell".

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On 7/1/2020 at 12:36 AM, SureWord said:

I always assumed he went to both places. To hell to preach to the spirits in prison and to paradise (i.e. Abraham's Bosom) to lead captivity captive.

I see no problem with the KJV saying Hell, let the Bible say what it says. The problem to me is when we attribute OUR understanding of what Hell is. We do know that people who died before the cross went there. Luke 16 says...

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

We know Lazarus died(verse 22), we know he went to Abraham's Bosom (Verse 22),

the rich man died(verse 22) and went to hell, where he was in torment (verse 23)

But, where he was he could see Abraham and  Lazarus, (Verse 23) who were not in torment  (unless one thinks Abraham was not justified which is nonsense) The two sides of this place were separated and one could not physically travel from one to the other (verse 26) 

I think sometimes we think of the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 20:14 as "Hell". The lake of fire is the eternal place of torment for the unsaved, and since death and hell were cast into it(Revelation 20:14), the place in mention with Lazarus and the rich man cannot be this final place. 

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9 hours ago, John Young said:

"Hell" is an English word, "Sheol" is not. It is a Hebrew word transliterated into roman letters from Hebrew letters. If it was translated into English then the correct English word would be "hell".

Cults and others have read that use of Hell as being the standard meaning of place of judgement, but the real meaning was the grave!

10 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Like I said above; KJV Translation Correctors.

There are certain areas where it should be!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Cults and others have read that use of Hell as being the standard meaning of place of judgement, but the real meaning was the grave!

There are certain areas where it should be!

The perfect recipe for yet another modern "version".

No thanks, it was good enough to save me from the fire of "the grave".

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Cults and others have read that use of Hell as being the standard meaning of place of judgement, but the real meaning was the grave!

Actually, this is not true.  The most basic meaning for the word "hell" is "the place of the dead."  This can include the grave, wherein the dead body is place, as well as the place of God's outpoured, unmixed wrath against sinful beings.  As far as I am aware, however, it is never used in Scripture concerning "heaven."  Although heaven is the place wherein the believing dead go, heaven itself is NOT the place of the DEAD.  Rather, heaven is the place of the "LIVING."  

Even so, I would contend that whenever we encounter the word "hell" in Scripture, we must discern from the context whether it is used in reference to the grave or in reference to the place of divine judgment.

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5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

The perfect recipe for yet another modern "version".

No thanks, it was good enough to save me from the fire of "the grave".

It is indeed a very good translation, but not perfect, as areas can be improved upon!

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, this is not true.  The most basic meaning for the word "hell" is "the place of the dead."  This can include the grave, wherein the dead body is place, as well as the place of God's outpoured, unmixed wrath against sinful beings.  As far as I am aware, however, it is never used in Scripture concerning "heaven."  Although heaven is the place wherein the believing dead go, heaven itself is NOT the place of the DEAD.  Rather, heaven is the place of the "LIVING."  

Even so, I would contend that whenever we encounter the word "hell" in Scripture, we must discern from the context whether it is used in reference to the grave or in reference to the place of divine judgment.

That was my main point, that there were instances when the Kjv team chose Hell and should have been for the grave...

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4 hours ago, DaChaser said:

It is indeed a very good translation, but not perfect, as areas can be improved upon!

That was my main point, that there were instances when the Kjv team chose Hell and should have been for the grave...

I understand your point, but do not agree. I believe that it was better for the translators to choose an English word (since one was available) which would encompass both meanings, even as the Greek and Hebrews words respectively encompass both meanings.  In this manner they could stay closer to the Holy Spirit inspired original, and would allow the reader the opportunity to discern the meaning through the context, even as would have been required in the original.  By employing the word "hell" for most of the translational cases, they accomplished just this objective.  Thank you for your integrity, translators.

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So, a question that relates to the original subject matter of the thread -- Can those in heaven observe the torment of those in hell?

Revelation 14:10 -- "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

Oh, but surely that must mean in the grave, as to the location it happens in.    :4_12_2:

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I see no problem with the KJV saying Hell, let the Bible say what it says. The problem to me is when we attribute OUR understanding of what Hell is. We do know that people who died before the cross went there. Luke 16 says...

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

We know Lazarus died(verse 22), we know he went to Abraham's Bosom (Verse 22),

the rich man died(verse 22) and went to hell, where he was in torment (verse 23)

But, where he was he could see Abraham and  Lazarus, (Verse 23) who were not in torment  (unless one thinks Abraham was not justified which is nonsense) The two sides of this place were separated and one could not physically travel from one to the other (verse 26) 

Brother DC, in your explanation you speak concerning "two sides" of "this place" (in the singular), as if the Scriptural passage presents the rich man and Lazarus as going after death to the same place, just a different side of that same place.  However, the Scriptural passage NEVER indicates that they went to the same place.  It ONLY indicates that the rich man went to hell, and that Lazarus went "into Abraham's bosom."  In fact, the passage clearly indicates that these two places are separate and different places, and never equates the one with the other.

Now, at the beginning of your above posting you stated that we should let the Bible say what it says.  Why then do you indicate something different than what it says?  Why then did you not indicate that these two dead men went to two different places, for that is all that the passage actually says?  They went to two different places, and those two different places were divided by a "great gulf."

Furthermore, I would ask whether you have considered that "Abraham's bosom" is not a reference unto some "place," but is actually a reference to Abraham's personal bosom/chest, wherein Lazarus was brought to literally lie in/on Abraham's personal bosom/chest?  (Note: There is a goodly amount of Scripture wherein the prepositions "in" or "into" are used with "bosom" as the object of those prepositions.)

 

20 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I think sometimes we think of the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 20:14 as "Hell". The lake of fire is the eternal place of torment for the unsaved, and since death and hell were cast into it(Revelation 20:14), the place in mention with Lazarus and the rich man cannot be this final place. 

Revelation 20:13 -- "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."  

So, the saved dead are now in the place called "heaven;" and the unsaved dead are now in the place called "death and hell."  What dead are then in the place called "the sea?"

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, in your explanation you speak concerning "two sides" of "this place" (in the singular), as if the Scriptural passage presents the rich man and Lazarus as going after death to the same place, just a different side of that same place.  However, the Scriptural passage NEVER indicates that they went to the same place.  It ONLY indicates that the rich man went to hell, and that Lazarus went "into Abraham's bosom."  In fact, the passage clearly indicates that these two places are separate and different places, and never equates the one with the other.

Now, at the beginning of your above posting you stated that we should let the Bible say what it says.  Why then do you indicate something different than what it says?  Why then did you not indicate that these two dead men went to two different places, for that is all that the passage actually says?  They went to two different places, and those two different places were divided by a "great gulf."

Furthermore, I would ask whether you have considered that "Abraham's bosom" is not a reference unto some "place," but is actually a reference to Abraham's personal bosom/chest, wherein Lazarus was brought to literally lie in/on Abraham's personal bosom/chest?  (Note: There is a goodly amount of Scripture wherein the prepositions "in" or "into" are used with "bosom" as the object of those prepositions.)

 

Revelation 20:13 -- "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."  

So, the saved dead are now in the place called "heaven;" and the unsaved dead are now in the place called "death and hell."  What dead are then in the place called "the sea?"

The reason I consider them two sides of one place is because they can see each other and communicate back and forth, but can’t cross to the other side. I suppose I am ok with saying two different places? Right next to each other.. 

Edited by OlBrotherDC
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

 they can see each other and communicate back and forth

Not really sure this is pertinent to the discussion but I wonder if sound and site work differently in the spirit world (no physical body) than in the Physical world. A few examples would be when on earth, Paul, John, Peter, The 70 elders of Israel on Mount Sinai, etc., were given temporary spiritual sight into heaven.

Edited by John Young
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10 minutes ago, John Young said:

Not really sure this is pertinent to the discussion but I wonder if sound and site work differently in the spirit world (no physical body) than in the Physical world. A few examples would be when on earth, Paul, John, Peter, The 70 elders of Israel on Mount Sinai, etc., were given temporary spiritual sight into heaven.

That’s an interesting thought. I’m not sure! 

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