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I have recently heard from many people that "People were saved by looking forward to the cross before and looking back at it after". I have also noticed that the majority of people who have said this were Calvinists. Since the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ was obviously not the focus of Abraham's Faith in Romans 4, how do you construct a view of the Bible without considering the dispensation of the scripture you are reading? In other words, what scripture do people use to defend this view of looking forward to the cross? I understand that the Bible starts speaking of a Messiah to come in Genesis, but I do not think Jesus' disciples understood fully what was going on, and they were with Him. In Luke 24

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So how were Abraham, Noah, David or others to know this? 

Does anyone believe that people before Christ were saved by Faith in Christ alone?

Would love some help and clarification here, Thank You! 

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The power of eternal salvation is the same throughout all time -- God's grace. The avenue of eternal salvation is the same throughout all time -- The Messiah/Christ of God and His work. The means

No sir, I would hold that the shed blood and sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY propitiation acceptable in the sight of the Lord God for any sinner to be saved in any time.  Yet my

Brother DC, Although you presented this question to Brother DaChaser (whom I believe admits to being a Calvinist), and not to myself, since you and I have engaged in discussion already on the mat

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19 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Has God ever saved apart from the Cross of Christ?

Definition means a lot.

For instance:  (did the people God here saved never believe, or they believed and later believed not ? )

 Jude 1:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

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18 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

That would depend on your definition of saved, do you believe OT believers were “saved” before the cross? 

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

17 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

Definition means a lot.

For instance:  (did the people God here saved never believe, or they believed and later believed not ? )

 Jude 1:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Saved as in going to Heaven!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

1 Peter 1:11 (KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/1/2020 at 4:45 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

That would depend on your definition of saved, do you believe OT believers were “saved” before the cross? 

Brother DC,

Although you presented this question to Brother DaChaser (whom I believe admits to being a Calvinist), and not to myself, since you and I have engaged in discussion already on the matter in this thread, I wish to answer from my perspective --

The word "saved" most basically means "to be delivered from some trouble."  In relation to eternal salvation, the word "saved" would include two aspects, one a "legal" aspect, and the other a "literal" aspect.

1.  Legally, to be delivered/saved from the condemnation of one's sinfulness, and thus to be delivered from the eternal wrath of God.  This aspect of salvation is administered through the process of divine justification.

2.  Literally, to be delivered/saved from the deadness of one's sinfulness, and thus to be delivered from the kingdom/family of spiritual darkness.  This aspect of salvation is administered through the process of divine regeneration.

I myself believe that Old Testament believers did indeed experience both the blessing of divine justification as well as the blessing of divine regeneration.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar
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2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

I would not use the word "saved" to refer to OT believers before the cross. I do believe however that they were "justified" meaning that they would be "saved" when Christ completed the finished work that God started before the foundation of the world on the cross providing a way for us to be reconciled to Him. I believe the scriptures teach that they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting the time when they would be "saved". I understand that my position is not the most popular position today. However, I do think if you hold to covenant theology which you yourself have claimed to do, (DaChaser, not Pastor Scott 😂)you will have serious flaws in your theology when you get to James chapter 2. Calvinists are quick to claim salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, which I agree is the only thing that can save a man in the church age and I have put my faith in this. The problem that I personally see is when you try and apply this to all of the other dispensations. I think I probably have an idea of your view, but I would love to hear your opinion on James 2:21-22. Lest anyone think that I don't believe everyone has to be saved by Christ alone, I do.  I simply think that they were "justified" before Christ by faith in Gods revelation to them "and their obedience to Gods specific commands to them" not to be confused with works to righteousness such as keeping the law. I believe once they were justified, they had avoided hell, and would enter into Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, until the blood of Christ redeemed them. 

,

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Hebrews is clear that the sacrifices were a temporary covering for sin. If people in the OT were saved by the finished work of Christ (which wasn't finished at the time) then why the sacrifices at all? Some like to say they were ceremonial which is absurd. A soul would be "cut off" from the people if they didn't perform them. 

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4 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I would not use the word "saved" to refer to OT believers before the cross. I do believe however that they were "justified" meaning that they would be "saved" when Christ completed the finished work that God started before the foundation of the world on the cross providing a way for us to be reconciled to Him. I believe the scriptures teach that they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting the time when they would be "saved". I understand that my position is not the most popular position today. However, I do think if you hold to covenant theology which you yourself have claimed to do, (DaChaser, not Pastor Scott 😂)you will have serious flaws in your theology when you get to James chapter 2. Calvinists are quick to claim salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, which I agree is the only thing that can save a man in the church age and I have put my faith in this. The problem that I personally see is when you try and apply this to all of the other dispensations. I think I probably have an idea of your view, but I would love to hear your opinion on James 2:21-22. Lest anyone think that I don't believe everyone has to be saved by Christ alone, I do.  I simply think that they were "justified" before Christ by faith in Gods revelation to them "and their obedience to Gods specific commands to them" not to be confused with works to righteousness such as keeping the law. I believe once they were justified, they had avoided hell, and would enter into Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, until the blood of Christ redeemed them. 

,

I understand that the OT believers had their sins remitted and passed over, so justified and regenerated, but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit except those such as Kings and prophets!

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5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Peter 1:11 (KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Holy Spirit dealt with Prophets, priests and Kings different then from "common" believers in OT!

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3 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The Holy Spirit dealt with Prophets, priests and Kings different then from "common" believers in OT!

This is not what the reformers taught about the Holy Spirit, 

but that rabbit hole is too deep for me. 😂

God Bless you, Dachaser!

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On 6/30/2020 at 9:02 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13

On 6/30/2020 at 9:35 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the other matter --

When do you believe that David actually did "ascend" into heaven?

On 6/30/2020 at 10:05 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

I believe that all OT believers(who had placed their FAITH in the instruction given to them by God in their respective dispensation)went to Abraham's Bosom (NOT HELL) and were saved when Jesus finished the work of eternal salvation on the cross and overcame death. I would think that they ascended to Heaven sometime around the Resurrection of Christ. 

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

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19 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

This is not what the reformers taught about the Holy Spirit, 

but that rabbit hole is too deep for me. 😂

God Bless you, Dachaser!

I have read various views on how the Holy Spirit operated in OT times, and many of therm even among Reformed sees Him as regenerating but not infilling them as he does now for all under the New Covenant!

11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

The souls of the redeemed depart their physical body at death to be where the lord Jesus is right now!

9 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

The basis of salvation has always been the Cross of Jesus!

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10 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

No sir, I would hold that the shed blood and sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY propitiation acceptable in the sight of the Lord God for any sinner to be saved in any time.  Yet my belief system would also acknowledge that in the viewpoint of the Lord God our Lord Jesus Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (See Revelation 13:8)

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

50 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The souls of the redeemed depart their physical body at death to be where the lord Jesus is right now!

Brother DaChaser, if you read my posting completely and follow its thought to conclusion, you will find that I am contending simply that "ascending" into heaven and "entering" into heaven are Biblically to be understood as two different things.  I am NOT denying that any believer, either of the Old Testament or of the New Testament, "entered" heaven upon death.  In fact, in an earlier posting I specifically declared my position (in response to a question by Brother DC) that Old Testament believers went "straight to heaven" upon their death.  However, Brother DC argued against my position by presenting John 3:13 which states that "no man hath ascended up to heaven."  I then employed a consideration of Acts 2:29-36 as a defense that Biblically "ascending" to heaven and "entering" heaven are different things, wherein "ascending" to heaven involves resurrection and exaltation, not simply entrance.  Thus I believe that "ascending" to heaven applies ONLY to our Lord Jesus Christ, even unto this day; whereas I believe that "entering" heaven applies to ALL dead believers, and has applied to them throughout all of time.

 

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15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

Brother DaChaser, if you read my posting completely and follow its thought to conclusion, you will find that I am contending simply that "ascending" into heaven and "entering" into heaven are Biblically to be understood as two different things.  I am NOT denying that any believer, either of the Old Testament or of the New Testament, "entered" heaven upon death.  In fact, in an earlier posting I specifically declared my position (in response to a question by Brother DC) that Old Testament believers went "straight to heaven" upon their death.  However, Brother DC argued against my position by presenting John 3:13 which states that "no man hath ascended up to heaven."  I then employed a consideration of Acts 2:29-36 as a defense that Biblically "ascending" to heaven and "entering" heaven are different things, wherein "ascending" to heaven involves resurrection and exaltation, not simply entrance.  Thus I believe that "ascending" to heaven applies ONLY to our Lord Jesus Christ, even unto this day; whereas I believe that "entering" heaven applies to ALL dead believers, and has applied to them throughout all of time.

 

Those who died believing in the promised Messiah during OT times went to Abraham's Bosom

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6 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Those who died believing in the promised Messiah during OT times went to Abraham's Bosom

Ahhhh, then you stand in agreement with Brother DC on this point; and I stand in disagreement with both of you on it.

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ahhhh, then you stand in agreement with Brother DC on this point; and I stand in disagreement with both of you on it.

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

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15 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

Brother DaChaser, for my response(s) to this please consider my postings in the thread -- Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? (starting with the following).

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2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Those who died believing in the promised Messiah during OT times went to Abraham's Bosom

The Jews in the OT had no idea the Messiah was going to be crucified. Thus, why the twelve apostles couldn't grasp Christ's words when he told them of his coming death, burial and resurrection or their melt down and scattering (except for maybe John) when he was crucified. It was hidden from them. The fact that someone like Isaiah wrote about "suffering servant or David about his soul being left in hell is irrelevant. It was still hidden from them and when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us. So now we can see Jesus in every book of the bible.

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6 minutes ago, SureWord said:

when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us.

Amen with all Praise to the Father in Heaven !

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

Hmmm...

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3 hours ago, SureWord said:

The Jews in the OT had no idea the Messiah was going to be crucified. Thus, why the twelve apostles couldn't grasp Christ's words when he told them of his coming death, burial and resurrection or their melt down and scattering (except for maybe John) when he was crucified. It was hidden from them. The fact that someone like Isaiah wrote about "suffering servant or David about his soul being left in hell is irrelevant. It was still hidden from them and when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us. So now we can see Jesus in every book of the bible.

True, but those saved jews knew the Promise of God to send the Messiah, and that was whom their faith and hope were in!

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