Jump to content
Online Baptist

Will a person who loves sin trust in Jesus for salvation?


Recommended Posts

  • Members

Well,   there is salvation for those who hate sin,  who renounce their 'soul' life to gain a 'spirit'(true) life in line with God's Word,   who turn to and come to Jesus to be healed (saved),  to be set free from the power of the devil,  the power of sin, the power of the world, and the power of sin and death....

We all HAD some sins we love, potentially.   When true repentance is accomplished,  when true healing, true salvation is accomplished by the Father,   there remains no more desire for sin,  no more love for sin - it is dealt with totally, as written.   Love the Truth.  Love what is Pure and Holy.   Do as God Directs,  not as if in debt to live any longer for sin in the old life, 

but owing all to God, putting on the newness of life,  in Christ Jesus,  as Described in His Word.

 

Even love of things of the world is not found in those who are in Christ Jesus - as written if someone loves the world, or the things of the world,  the love of God is not in them,  and they cannot be a friend of God if they are a friend of the world.   (see specifics throughout the NT) .

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

When I got saved I still loved sin. I felt bad about it and knew it was wrong, but honestly I still enjoyed it and desired it. God has gradually helped me grow and my desires have changed. If a person is in Christ they are a new creature. How can a person have new desires in order to become a new creature to receive new desires???

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
45 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

When I got saved I still loved sin. I felt bad about it and knew it was wrong, but honestly I still enjoyed it and desired it. God has gradually helped me grow and my desires have changed. If a person is in Christ they are a new creature. How can a person have new desires in order to become a new creature to receive new desires???

With all humble honesty, there are STILL some sins at some times that I love, even after being a child of God for 34 years.  The reason -- because I still retain the inner motivations of my selfish, sinful "flesh."  In fact, there is NO good thing, no, not even the smallest speck, in my selfish, sinful "flesh;" and thus my selfish, sinful "flesh" ALWAYS loves sin and hates godliness.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrators
39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

With all humble honesty, there are STILL some sins at some times that I love, even after being a child of God for 34 years.  The reason -- because I still retain the inner motivations of my selfish, sinful "flesh."  In fact, there is NO good thing, no, not even the smallest speck, in my selfish, sinful "flesh;" and thus my selfish, sinful "flesh" ALWAYS loves sin and hates godliness.

An extremely humbling post, it convicted me mightily because it speaks directly to not only me myself, but I am convinced to most Christians if they are honest with themselves.

Thank you Bro. Scott for your brutally candid honesty this morning.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/5/2020 at 5:44 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

Well, as we are all sinners we best hope that salvation comes to all of us. We all have some sin[s] we love.

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
(Matthew 9:12-13)
 

A person cannot be saved if he is self-righteous.  If he does not realize he is a sinner.  It is true that all men loves sin, and even if a person is already born again still there are sins that he loves and could not get rid of.  But somehow there is a starting point of changing thoughts about sin, from loving sin to hatred of it, to trusting Christ.  A person who never had a change of thought and views of sin, and still wanting more to be in bondage to sin would not trust in Christ.  Do you love sin when you accepted and trusted in Christ, or you realized that sin is displeasing to the Lord and you felt sorry about it so you trusted in Christ? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/6/2020 at 3:11 AM, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

Well,   there is salvation for those who hate sin,  who renounce their 'soul' life to gain a 'spirit'(true) life in line with God's Word,   who turn to and come to Jesus to be healed (saved),  to be set free from the power of the devil,  the power of sin, the power of the world, and the power of sin and death....

We all HAD some sins we love, potentially.   When true repentance is accomplished,  when true healing, true salvation is accomplished by the Father,   there remains no more desire for sin,  no more love for sin - it is dealt with totally, as written.   Love the Truth.  Love what is Pure and Holy.   Do as God Directs,  not as if in debt to live any longer for sin in the old life, 

but owing all to God, putting on the newness of life,  in Christ Jesus,  as Described in His Word.

 

Even love of things of the world is not found in those who are in Christ Jesus - as written if someone loves the world, or the things of the world,  the love of God is not in them,  and they cannot be a friend of God if they are a friend of the world.   (see specifics throughout the NT) .

Repentance of sin is a result of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  All men by nature loves sin.   But when a sinner is convicted and guilty of his sin, feel sorry being under condemnation realized that he is a hell-bound sinner and worthy of eternal death, and trust Christ as Savior, then he is saved.  At that point when he trusted Christ, he didn't want to live in sin anymore and he hated sin, and loved Jesus for the love and grace He bestowed.  But after he is saved, Satan just don't give up and keeps tempting again, to arouse love for sin.  It does not mean that when you become a Christian, the desire for sin stops.  However because of the love of God, and for God, there is the struggle.  ( Romans 7:15).  For a Christian to overcome sin, his love for God must continue to grow through mediation, fellowship, witnessing, church...  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
9 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

When I got saved I still loved sin. I felt bad about it and knew it was wrong, but honestly I still enjoyed it and desired it. God has gradually helped me grow and my desires have changed. If a person is in Christ they are a new creature. How can a person have new desires in order to become a new creature to receive new desires???

As I have explained above, it does not mean that when you become a Christian, there is no more desire for sin.  Yes there is still, that is why the Christian life is always a battle between the old self and the new nature.  But when you received Christ for salvation, you did not received Christ and trusted in Him when your heart and mind is full of love and desire for sin.  The Holy Spirit brought conviction making you realize what is sin, so that you felt guilty, unworthy, and you came to a point of being sorry for your sin, so that from loving sin there is a change of mind and heart to hating sin and trusting in Jesus for salvation.  You did not seek deliverance and trusted the Savior in order to change desire.  Rather, it was through the conviction of the Spirit and the word that you felt the need for salvation from sin and hell, so that brought repentance and faith in Jesus. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
9 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

With all humble honesty, there are STILL some sins at some times that I love, even after being a child of God for 34 years.  The reason -- because I still retain the inner motivations of my selfish, sinful "flesh."  In fact, there is NO good thing, no, not even the smallest speck, in my selfish, sinful "flesh;" and thus my selfish, sinful "flesh" ALWAYS loves sin and hates godliness.

While in this life there is always the struggle between loving sin and loving God.  In 1 John 4: 7-8,  our Christian growth is evidence by love for God and others.  Our love for God is a result of knowing God.  We love him, because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19),  We grow in our Christian life as we grow in knowledge and obedience to Christ.  But the question, when was the first time you started to love God and hate sin?  All your life you'd been loving sin and hating God.  But when did you change your mind and heart?  Was it when you hear the gospel? We love him because He first loved us.  You won't trust the Savior if you have great love for sin and hated the Savior.  But the Bible says, faith worketh by love.  How could you have faith if you were not affected by the love of Jesus?  

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.(Galatians 5:6)

8 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

An extremely humbling post, it convicted me mightily because it speaks directly to not only me myself, but I am convinced to most Christians if they are honest with themselves.

Thank you Bro. Scott for your brutally candid honesty this morning.

If there is no repentance of sin, and if the sinner loves sin greatly and hated salvation, how would he trust Christ.  There is a work of God's grace that brought the sinner to shame and guilt of his sin, so he repented of it and trusted in the Savior.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/4/2020 at 1:50 PM, SureWord said:

There should be some kind of repentance and a desire to follow God but you have to be careful with judging new believers. Many grow at different rates and turning from sin is really a battle for many and doesn't always happen over night. But there should be some kind of love for God's righteousness and conviction of sin.

Salvation is one thing and spiritual growth is another thing.  Love for sin is natural for all men because the Bible says that all men are depraved, corrupt, and no one is seeking for God, Romans 3: 10-13, John 3: 19.  The work of grace in salvation is an inward grace, and is effected in our lives by the Holy Spirit.  (John 16:8; John 12: 32).  How does grace works in salvation?  The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, John 16: 8.  Without it, man would not understand that he is a sinner or that he has sinned against God.  All men are sinners and love sin, Romans 3: 23; John 3: 19.  Sin displeases God and there is a consequence of sin (Romans 6: 23).  Its not only that he needs to realize that his methods and way of salvation is wrong, but needs to realize that he is a sinner.  If a person does not realize that he is a sinner, why would he needs to be saved?  He needs not only repent of his wrong method of salvation, but that all his doings and thoughts are sin, and that he must see himself as sinful as well not just his methods.  Some try to classify repentance of man such as 1) repentance not of sin 2) and repentance of sin.  And they will try to define repentance not of sin is unbelief to belief in God.  However if you ask them a question, Is unbelief sin, they cannot deny it, so they contradict their own rules.  They still repent of the sin of unbelief.  

When a person is saved, it does not mean that he does not commit sin anymore or that the desire for sin is eradicated.  But there is love for God growing in him and that is the reason for the struggle.  A truly saved person has that love for God greater than love for sin, though at times he can be defeated yet God's grace helps him to grow.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Posted (edited)

Brother MBKJPreacher,

I recognize that your primary theme throughout this thread discussion concerns the matter of repentance for salvation.  However, since I entered this thread discussion on the matter of "loving sin" after the moment of salvation/regeneration, I wish to present some further explanation concerning my understanding thereof.  I do this partially because some define the repentance necessary for salvation (yes, I do believe that it is necessary) in such a manner that it mandates certain behavior after salvation/regeneration, or else they claim that genuine repentance never happened.

In my belief system I hold that a human individual includes three basic parts -- soul, spirit, and body.  I hold that the "soul" is the "personhood" of the person, that the "spirit" is given to the "soul" as the means for the "soul" to fellowship with God, and that the "body" is given to the "soul" as the means for the "soul" to interact with the physical world.  I hold that before regeneration the individual's "spirit" is spiritually and completely dead unto God "in trespasses and sins," and thus has no ability of fellowship with God.  I also hold that the lost individual's "soul" (heart/motivations, mind/thoughts, emotion/attitudes, will/decisions, conscience, "flesh") is utterly corrupted in sinfulness by its spiritually sinful "spirit."  

However, in my belief system I hold that at regeneration (through faith in Christ) the individual's spiritually "dead" spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness."  As such, I hold that this new "spirit" is completely holy in every smallest part, that it is the place wherein the indwelling Holy Spirit resides, that it is always in perfect union with the holy direction of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and that it always loves God's righteousness and always hates any and all unrighteousness (even as the Holy Spirit Himself).  On the other hand, I hold that the individual's "soul" and "body" are NOT automatically made righteous at the moment of regeneration, but that the "soul" will be perfected upon its entrance into heaven and that the "body" will be perfected upon its resurrection.  So then, I hold that the regenerate believer still retains the influence of the selfish/sinful "flesh" within his "soul," that this "flesh" is to be defined as the principle/law of utter selfishness within, that there is not even the smallest part of good within this selfish/sinful "flesh," and that the selfish/sinful "flesh" always loves unrighteousness and always hates righteousness. 

Even so, I hold that this reveals the battle within every believer -- a battle between the influence of his regenerate and perfectly righteous "spirit" (in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit) against the influence of his utterly selfish and sinful "flesh."  Furthermore, I hold that the battleground over which these two internal and utterly contrary influences battle is the individual's "soul" (heart/motivations, mind/thoughts, emotion/attitudes, will/decisions).  As such, I hold that there is always some part of a genuine believer that always, perfectly loves God's righteousness, and at the same time another part of the believer that always/ utterly loves sinful unrighteousness.  I hold that this battle of internal influences will ever continue within every genuine believer as long as the believer lives upon this earth.  I hold that growth in spiritual maturity can be defined as a believer yielding/walking ever more and more under/after the influence of his righteous spirit in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and that spiritual immaturity can be defined as a believer yielding/walking primarily under/after the influence of his selfish, sinful "flesh."  Furthermore, I hold that a genuine believer can grow much over time in spiritual maturity, but then possibly "backslide" through walking after the "flesh," so much that he might lose all of the spiritual maturity that had developed within him (although he never loses his eternal salvation, the regenerate spirit within, or the indwelling Holy Spirit within).

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/7/2020 at 8:53 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother MBKJPreacher,

I recognize that your primary theme throughout this thread discussion concerns the matter of repentance for salvation.  However, since I entered this thread discussion on the matter of "loving sin" after the moment of salvation/regeneration, I wish to present some further explanation concerning my understanding thereof.  I do this partially because some define the repentance necessary for salvation (yes, I do believe that it is necessary) in such a manner that it mandates certain behavior after salvation/regeneration, or else they claim that genuine repentance never happened.

In my belief system I hold that a human individual includes three basic parts -- soul, spirit, and body.  I hold that the "soul" is the "personhood" of the person, that the "spirit" is given to the "soul" as the means for the "soul" to fellowship with God, and that the "body" is given to the "soul" as the means for the "soul" to interact with the physical world.  I hold that before regeneration the individual's "spirit" is spiritually and completely dead unto God "in trespasses and sins," and thus has no ability of fellowship with God.  I also hold that the lost individual's "soul" (heart/motivations, mind/thoughts, emotion/attitudes, will/decisions, conscience, "flesh") is utterly corrupted in sinfulness by its spiritually sinful "spirit."  

However, in my belief system I hold that at regeneration (through faith in Christ) the individual's spiritually "dead" spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness."  As such, I hold that this new "spirit" is completely holy in every smallest part, that it is the place wherein the indwelling Holy Spirit resides, that it is always in perfect union with the holy direction of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and that it always loves God's righteousness and always hates any and all unrighteousness (even as the Holy Spirit Himself).  On the other hand, I hold that the individual's "soul" and "body" are NOT automatically made righteous at the moment of regeneration, but that the "soul" will be perfected upon its entrance into heaven and that the "body" will be perfected upon its resurrection.  So then, I hold that the regenerate believer still retains the influence of the selfish/sinful "flesh" within his "soul," that this "flesh" is to be defined as the principle/law of utter selfishness within, that there is not even the smallest part of good within this selfish/sinful "flesh," and that the selfish/sinful "flesh" always loves unrighteousness and always hates righteousness. 

Even so, I hold that this reveals the battle within every believer -- a battle between the influence of his regenerate and perfectly righteous "spirit" (in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit) against the influence of his utterly selfish and sinful "flesh."  Furthermore, I hold that the battleground over which these two internal and utterly contrary influences battle is the individual's "soul" (heart/motivations, mind/thoughts, emotion/attitudes, will/decisions).  As such, I hold that there is always some part of a genuine believer that always, perfectly loves God's righteousness, and at the same time another part of the believer that always/ utterly loves sinful unrighteousness.  I hold that this battle of internal influences will ever continue within every genuine believer as long as the believer lives upon this earth.  I hold that growth in spiritual maturity can be defined as a believer yielding/walking ever more and more under/after the influence of his righteous spirit in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and that spiritual immaturity can be defined as a believer yielding/walking primarily under/after the influence of his selfish, sinful "flesh."  Furthermore, I hold that a genuine believer can grow much over time in spiritual maturity, but then possibly "backslide" through walking after the "flesh," so much that he might lose all of the spiritual maturity that had developed within him (although he never loses his eternal salvation, the regenerate spirit within, or the indwelling Holy Spirit within).

Brother Markle, Let me give some comments with regards to what you hold or believes: 

You stated: However, in my belief system I hold that at regeneration (through faith in Christ) the individual's spiritually "dead" spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness." 

My comments:  We both believe that man is corrupt, depraved, and spiritually dead until regenerated. However we differ in the belief since what you hold is similar to the Calvinists' idea, such as that the depraved and spiritually dead sinner cannot hear, repent, and believe.  What makes you different from the Calvinist's is that you believe that the spiritually dead cannot repent yet he can believe.

If i will be asked, can the spiritually dead hear, repent, and believe?  If by his own depraved self, he could not,  (John 12:39)  but under the conviction of the Spirit and the influence of God's word, the spiritually dead can hear, repent and believe. (Acts 16:30-31).  

Here are some of my questions for you.  I hope you can give time to answering these questions. 

1) What reason do you have why a spiritually dead cannot repent yet he can believe?  

2). When does the Holy Spirit convict men of sin?  a) Before trusting in Jesus.  b) After Trusting in Jesus  c) After salvation.

3) You mentioned that at regeneration through faith in Christ Jesus, the individual's spiritually dead spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness."  My question is, are you referring to intellectual belief or trusting in Jesus as Savior?  

4) According to the teaching of Jesus and Paul, which comes first, repentance or faith?  

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(Mark 1:15)
 

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Acts 20:21)
 

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(Hebrews 6:1)
 

5)  Do you have a verse to support that faith precedes repentance? 

 

6)  Since all men by nature love sin, when does the change of feelings occur from loving sin to being sorry of it?  a) At the conviction of the Holy Spirit  b) After he trusted in Christ as Savior  c) After salvation.  

7)  Do you affirm that when the sinner trusted in Jesus, his heart has great love for sin and does not like deliverance from it?  

 

I do believe that after a person is saved, the desire for sin continues but because of the Holy Spirit within that guides the believer, (Romans 8:9,14), there is a growing desire and love for God that would help him to overcome sin.  However, while in this life no one is perfect.  Christian maturity is when he is learning to obey God than sin, though it does not mean that he is perfect.  God has provided confession of sins as a means for the believer to restore fellowship with God every time he falls.  

 

I will deal with your other explanations next time. There is no problem with regards to Christian growth.  The believer has dual nature and there is always a struggle.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Brother Markle, Let me give some comments with regards to what you hold or believes: 

You stated: However, in my belief system I hold that at regeneration (through faith in Christ) the individual's spiritually "dead" spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness." 

My comments:  We both believe that man is corrupt, depraved, and spiritually dead until regenerated. However we differ in the belief since what you hold is similar to the Calvinists' idea, such as that the depraved and spiritually dead sinner cannot hear, repent, and believe.  What makes you different from the Calvinist's is that you believe that the spiritually dead cannot repent yet he can believe.

 

Brother MBKJPreacher, 

With all due respect, your understanding of what I hold concerning the manner through which lost sinners come to salvation/regeneration is simply wrong.  In my above posting I very specifically focused my explanation on the matter of "loving sin" AFTER salvation/regeneration.

On 7/7/2020 at 8:53 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother MBKJPreacher,

I recognize that your primary theme throughout this thread discussion concerns the matter of repentance for salvation.  However, since I entered this thread discussion on the matter of "loving sin" after the moment of salvation/regeneration, I wish to present some further explanation concerning my understanding thereof.  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

In fact, in that above explanation I provided only two comments wherein I revealed some hint as to my position concerning the manner through which lost sinners come to salvation/regeneration; and both of those comments were provided by a parenthetical.  In my opening paragraph, I stated:

On 7/7/2020 at 8:53 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I recognize that your primary theme throughout this thread discussion concerns the matter of repentance for salvation.  However, since I entered this thread discussion on the matter of "loving sin" after the moment of salvation/regeneration, I wish to present some further explanation concerning my understanding thereof.  I do this partially because some define the repentance necessary for salvation (yes, I do believe that it is necessary) in such a manner that it mandates certain behavior after salvation/regeneration, or else they claim that genuine repentance never happened.  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Furthermore, with the opening sentence of my third paragraph, I stated:

On 7/7/2020 at 8:53 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

However, in my belief system I hold that at regeneration (through faith in Christ) the individual's spiritually "dead" spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness."  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

As such, I revealed somewhat my position that BOTH repentance and faith are necessary for salvation/regeneration.  Even so, your following claim against me is simply wrong --

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

My comments:  We both believe that man is corrupt, depraved, and spiritually dead until regenerated. However we differ in the belief since what you hold is similar to the Calvinists' idea, such as that the depraved and spiritually dead sinner cannot hear, repent, and believe.  What makes you different from the Calvinist's is that you believe that the spiritually dead cannot repent yet he can believe.  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

I would challenge you to read my comments above more carefully.  Allow me to quote again the line of my posting that relates to this matter:

On 7/7/2020 at 8:53 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I do this partially because some define the repentance necessary for salvation (yes, I do believe that it is necessary) in such a manner that it mandates certain behavior after salvation/regeneration, or else they claim that genuine repentance never happened. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Now, I would also challenge you to consider your understanding of Calvinism more carefully; for you do not appear to understand it precisely either.  The Calvinist does indeed hold that the spiritually "dead" sinner cannot hear, respond, repent, believe, specifically due to his spiritual "deadness."  However, the Calvinist DOES believe that hearing and responding through both repentance and faith ARE necessary.  Thus the Calvinist holds that regeneration (the giving of spiritual "life" through divine grace) is necessary BEFORE and IN ORDER THAT the spiritually "dead" sinner can hear and respond through both repentance and faith.  As such, the Calvinist holds that regeneration "life" is the PREREQUISITE TO repentance and faith, whereby a lost sinner comes to repentance and faith THROUGH regeneration.  In relation to this, I would hold THE VERY OPPOSITE as the Calvinist.  For I hold that BOTH repentance and faith are the PREREQUISITE TO salvation/regeneration, and that a lost sinner receives salvation/regeneration THROUGH repentance and faith.
 

Now then, in your posting above you asked a series of questions:

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

1) What reason do you have why a spiritually dead cannot repent yet he can believe?  

Answer -- I have NO reason because this is NOT the position that I hold (as per my above comments).

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

2). When does the Holy Spirit convict men of sin?  a) Before trusting in Jesus.  b) After Trusting in Jesus  c) After salvation.

Answer -- Before trusting in Christ? Yes, in order to draw a sinner unto Christ the Savior.  After trusting in Christ? Yes, in order to draw a believer unto greater levels of spiritual growth.  After salvation? Yes, for this is the same things as "after trusting in Christ."

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

3) You mentioned that at regeneration through faith in Christ Jesus, the individual's spiritually dead spirit is completely removed by the power of God's grace and is completely replaced with a new "spirit" that is created after God's own likeness "in righteousness and true holiness."  My question is, are you referring to intellectual belief or trusting in Jesus as Savior?  

Answer -- I am referring to the faith that God's Holy Word requires, a faith/believing on/in Jesus the Christ as personal Savior from personal sinfulness, guiltiness, and condemnation.  (Actually, until I know your specific definitions for "intellectual belief" versus "trusting in Jesus as Savior," I cannot be more precise in answering your question as asked.)

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

4) According to the teaching of Jesus and Paul, which comes first, repentance or faith?  

Answer -- If we are talking specifically about the process whereby a lost sinner comes to Christ as Savior (which seems to be the context for your questions), then I would hold that repentance precedes faith, such that specifically repentance leads to faith.

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

5)  Do you have a verse to support that faith precedes repentance?

 Answer -- I am personally NOT aware of any, which is why I do NOT hold to that position (as per my answer to question #4.)

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

6)  Since all men by nature love sin, when does the change of feelings occur from loving sin to being sorry of it?  a) At the conviction of the Holy Spirit  b) After he trusted in Christ as Savior  c) After salvation.  

Answer -- At the conviction of the Holy Spirit? No, if the lost sinner resists the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Yes somewhat, if the lost sinner yields to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but not necessarily concerning every single bit of sin that might be in his life, and not necessarily with a complete commitment of his entire self (which I hold, as per my earlier explanation, does not even happen in the regenerate believer's entire self).  

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

7)  Do you affirm that when the sinner trusted in Jesus, his heart has great love for sin and does not like deliverance from it?  

Answer -- Actually, I am not precisely sure of your question here.  Are you talking about the moment of and immediately after faith in Christ as Savior, so that you are asking about the newly regenerated believer?  Or are you talking abut the moment immediately before faith in Christ, and that leads the lost sinner unto the decision of faith in Christ as Savior?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/9/2020 at 9:56 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, I would also challenge you to consider your understanding of Calvinism more carefully; for you do not appear to understand it precisely either.  The Calvinist does indeed hold that the spiritually "dead" sinner cannot hear, respond, repent, believe, specifically due to his spiritual "deadness."  However, the Calvinist DOES believe that hearing and responding through both repentance and faith ARE necessary.  Thus the Calvinist holds that regeneration (the giving of spiritual "life" through divine grace) is necessary BEFORE and IN ORDER THAT the spiritually "dead" sinner can hear and respond through both repentance and faith.  As such, the Calvinist holds that regeneration "life" is the PREREQUISITE TO repentance and faith, whereby a lost sinner comes to repentance and faith THROUGH regeneration.  In relation to this, I would hold THE VERY OPPOSITE as the Calvinist.  For I hold that BOTH repentance and faith are the PREREQUISITE TO salvation/regeneration, and that a lost sinner receives salvation/regeneration THROUGH repentance and faith.

The Calvinists believe that hearing, repentance and faith are necessary in obedience to the gospel as spiritually alive already not in order to obtain life.  The real Calvinists does not believe that repentance and faith are necessary to regeneration, but they believe they are results to regeneration.  

Amen to your answer that you hold that repentance and faith are prerequisite to salvation/ regeneration.  

 

On Question #2, I agree with your answer.  The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, before he believes or trust in Christ as Savior that is before salvation.  And after he believes and trust in Christ, and after salvation when he sinned, the Holy Spirit convicts him of sins so that he would confess them to the Lord to restore fellowship with God.  

 

ON Question #3,  I was referring to intellectual belief as mere belief or head knowledge such as mentioned in James 2: 19.  Before a person repents, he has some head knowledge of God, or probably believe in God intellectually but does not necessarily mean he trust Christ as Savior.  It is through knowledge of the fact that they are condemned sinners, and the God provided salvation that he comes to a point of repentance through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and faith in Jesus as Savior.  I do not think we have a disagreement on this.  

On Question #4 and #5, We do not have disagreements.  

Question #6.  Since all men by nature love sin, When does the change occur from loving sin to being sorry of it?  I agree with your answers, yes if he yields to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and No if he resist it.  

Let's talk about the yes answer.  The question is when does the change occur?  There is a change of feelings, a change of heart when he yields to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and he realizes that sin is sin and displeasing to God.  The sinner agrees with truth that he is a condemned lost sinner, living the sinful way and is not worthy and responds to the good news that Christ loves him and died for him, thus loving Him in return and trusting in Him.  My point is that there was a change of mind and heart toward God concerning sin, so that he turns from loving sin to being sorry of it to trusting Christ for salvation.  

There is no need to specify every sin, but that the sinner at that specific moment changes his mind about sin, without specifying every sin or making a list of it, because all of those sins are sin against God.  

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
(1 John 5:17)
 

In Question #7 I am asking in relation to the view of Anderson that the sinner need not to repent of sin but that he just believe in Jesus.  So if there is no repentance of sin, no change of mind concerning sin, no change of feelings about sin and that means he is not sorry of his sin, and that means he still loves sin greatly when he trusted in Christ.  

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On 7/4/2020 at 1:50 PM, SureWord said:

There should be some kind of repentance and a desire to follow God but you have to be careful with judging new believers. Many grow at different rates and turning from sin is really a battle for many and doesn't always happen over night. But there should be some kind of love for God's righteousness and conviction of sin.

I was not so specific of my question but i was referring to the unsaved person.  With regards to the saved person, still repentance of sin is not a work thing.  When we interpret turning from sin as a work process to quit sin, then that makes repentance as a work. However repentance or repentance of sin is not a work but a decision in the mind to forsake sin.  To turn from sin is to change one's mind about sin, and not necessarily mean a process and sequence of good works.  Rather work is the result of true repentance.  In the case of unsaved person, repentance of sin happens just once when because of his realization of sin he trusted in Jesus as Savior.  Without faith, of course no matter how many times a person repents he won't be saved by such.  

True repentance is followed by faith.  

 

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
(Matthew 21:32)
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
Posted (edited)

For clarification this question is not...

When a person is saved, will he still commit sin? 

Does a person who commit sin be saved?  

Does God require perfection in order to be saved? 

The three questions above is not the question of this thread.  The question is not about the saved person.  But the question is about the sinner who loves sin, as the Bible declares that men loved darkness rather than light, (John 3: 19), they hate the light and the truth.  The question is related to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  Should there be conviction of the Holy Spirit concerning sin?  Should the sinner come to a point of realization of sin and its consequence, that would bring a change of mind and heart from loving sin to hating it, and being sorry of it.  Imagine yourself you were invited to a birthday part of a wealthy friend, and you thought it is just an ordinary activity, and you went there but you were wearing a dirty shoes, pants and shirt that is like filthy rags.  When you arrived at the house, the guests are well groomed clean, the house is so clean, and you were exposed to the light, and felt embarrassed, dirty, unworthy to come, undeserving..  and your friend told you to go to the shower room, clean yourself, and wear his best clothes at the closet.  Would you be willing to take a shower and wear his suit if you think you are fine with your filthy clothes, and dirty face?  If you like wearing your filthy clothes, would you trust your friend and wear his clean clothes?  

That is the point of the question, will a person who loves sin trust Christ as Savior?  

So this is about salvation.  There are many already who teach that you do not need to repent of your sin to be saved.  If you were that man who wore a filthy clothes, would you not change your mind about your outfit and accept the offer of your friend to wear that clean outfit he offers?  

Edited by mbkjpreacher
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
37 minutes ago, mbkjpreacher said:

The Calvinists believe that hearing, repentance and faith are necessary in obedience to the gospel as spiritually alive already not in order to obtain life.  The real Calvinists does not believe that repentance and faith are necessary to regeneration, but they believe they are results to regeneration.  

Indeed, this is the same as I presented:

On 7/9/2020 at 9:56 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The Calvinist does indeed hold that the spiritually "dead" sinner cannot hear, respond, repent, believe, specifically due to his spiritual "deadness."  However, the Calvinist DOES believe that hearing and responding through both repentance and faith ARE necessary.  Thus the Calvinist holds that regeneration (the giving of spiritual "life" through divine grace) is necessary BEFORE and IN ORDER THAT the spiritually "dead" sinner can hear and respond through both repentance and faith.  As such, the Calvinist holds that regeneration "life" is the PREREQUISITE TO repentance and faith, whereby a lost sinner comes to repentance and faith THROUGH regeneration In relation to this, I would hold THE VERY OPPOSITE as the Calvinist.  For I hold that BOTH repentance and faith are the PREREQUISITE TO salvation/regeneration, and that a lost sinner receives salvation/regeneration THROUGH repentance and faith.

On the other hand, I accept that my challenge to you was in error; for you do indeed understand the position of the Calvinist.  Thus I ask you to forgive the following challenge:

On 7/9/2020 at 9:56 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, I would also challenge you to consider your understanding of Calvinism more carefully; for you do not appear to understand it precisely either.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 37 Guests (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...