The Reason That God Will Allow Tribulation of The Saints

[Palatka51]

In Noah's world men were setting themselves up as god's.
Genesis 6:4
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

In Peleg's world they were trusting in the works of their hands to reach Heaven.
Genesis 11:4
4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

In Lot's world it was homosexuality.
Genesis 19:4&5
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

In Egypt it was witchcraft (2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses) and Pharaoh sitting as a god and the worship of nature as gods, ie; the Nile, flies, frogs, sun, moon and darkness.
Exodus chapter 1 through chapter 12.

In Canaan it was the throwing babies into the fire of the idols.
2 Chronicles 28:3
3Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

Then as Israel was in the period of the Judges, all of the above things were in the mix as God judged them from generation unto generation. It was likewise throughout the period of the kings. When their transgressions became full God sewed them out of the land that He gave them. In the Old Testament He said vomit. They had defiled their way and God judged them worthy of chastisement. Taken away into Babylon they endured persecution for 70 years and even near annihilation under the reign of Xerxes as is told in the book of Esther. Yet God was faithful to His promise and restored them to their inheritance.

Sense Nebuchadnezzar and until 1948ad, the Holy Land has been under Gentile control and Jerusalem was until 1968ad. As we all know, the Church had it's beginning in the book of Acts. Now God has dealt with nations as to how they have treated the Church. We can see that in the OT God dealt with nations as to how they treated Israel. The similarities are uncanny. Both are witnesses of Jesus Christ and both have the Law, one in stone tablets and the other in fleshly tablets. Judgment began at the House of God then and Judgment will begin at the House of God today.

Pharaoh brought hardship upon Israel while they dwelt in Goshan. Israel was involved with the same idol worship as the Egyptians and they did not turn back to God until they had hard tribulation.
Joshua 24:14&15
14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Now God is set to bring wrath upon the world again. And as it was in Noah's time this will not be one nation or one empire but the whole world over. And just as the fathers of the OT, judgment will begin at the house of God. (House of God ie Temple, and inconsequently is where the two witnesses are)
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. Context is that Peter is addressing the Church. He is not reciting Jewish history.

Why must judgment come upon the Church?
Revelation 3:14-19
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
This Tribulation is called the Great Tribulation because it will come upon the whole world at one time and will endure for a very short 3 1/2 years. Many peoples of the whole Earth will be saved (the most of which will be the Jewish nation and the lost tribes of the same) and the rest will get the mark of the Beast. Revelation 13:17&18. Then the Church will be caught up and out, as the wrath of God is brought down upon those that have followed the Beast and the false prophet for the remaining 3 1/2 years.

[Jerry]

The Bible teaches that the entire Tribulation period - covered in the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 (in part) and other passages - is a time of God's wrath upon the whole earth. The NT church is promised that they will not undergo God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The context of the following is very clearly referring to the wrath poured out upon earth during the day of the Lord, not God's wrath on the lost sinner in Hell:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

[Palatka51]

The Bible teaches that the entire Tribulation period - covered in the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 (in part) and other passages - is a time of God's wrath upon the whole earth. The NT church is promised that they will not undergo God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The context of the following is very clearly referring to the wrath poured out upon earth during the day of the Lord, not God's wrath on the lost sinner in Hell:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jerry,

Thank you for your reply. Please give me a verse that unequivocally states that tribulation is wrath. I am in agreement with you that the Church will not see wrath. You must see that tribulation is not the wrath of God. Tribulation is judgment on the House of God as I stated in the OP.
Souls will be saved during the Great Tribulation.
Matthew 24:21&22
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect?s sake those days shall be shortened.

Souls will not be saved during wrath.
Revelation 16:10,11&21
10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The Apostles understood that they must have tribulation.
Acts 14:22
22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3-5
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 8:35
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 12:12
12Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1Thess 3:4
4For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Revelation 7:13-17
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

[Jerry]

No one said Christians won't undergo trials - however, the seven year tribulation period is God turning back to Israel and pouring His wrath on the world - which He promised Christians would not undergo. Either He is a liar or His Word is true, and believers won't be here for those seven years.

[Palatka51]

No one said Christians won't undergo trials - however' date=' the seven year tribulation period is God turning back to Israel and pouring His wrath on the world - which He promised Christians would not undergo. Either He is a liar or His Word is true, and believers won't be here for those seven years.[/quote']
Jerry,

Does the Word say that Tribulation and Wrath are one and the same?

Christians will not go through Wrath. I understand that. Nor have I called God a liar, nor have I said His Word is untrue. Please give me an answer and tell me where the Word of God says anything about the Great Tribulation being the Wrath of God. Anything that says we will not have or even be safe from tribulation would be helpful.

Please compare the following 2 verses.

Romans 8:35
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
No where in this verse does it say that we are safe from tribulation. Isn't it curious that Wrath is missing? Why is it missing? It is because we will not have the wrath of God upon us.
John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Wrath is appointed to the unbeliever, we see also that tribulation and wrath is appointed to the unbeliever.

Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
This is the definitive verse for me, the believer is saved from Wrath. However, in previous posts I have show that the Word tells us that we will endure tribulation. If we are to take tribulation as wrath then we are making the Word to say something it is not. Tribulation and Wrath are two seperate experiences. One (wrath) is not for the believer, however we do find in our study that the unbeliever will experience both.

[Bakershalfdozen]

[quote]Tribulation is judgment on the House of God as I stated in the OP.[/quote]


Actually, it is determined for the people of Israel and Jerusalem.

[color=#0000FF][i]Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[/i][/color]

70 "weeks" have been pre-determined for Israel and Jerusalem. That verse tells us what the 70 weeks will accomplish. Not everything in that list has yet been accomplished because the 70 weeks are not completely fulfilled. The Tribulation will usher in everlasting righteousness, it will seal up Daniel's vision and prophecy and it will anoint Jesus Christ as the true King and Messiah of Israel.

[Jerry]

[quote="Palatka51"]Does the Word say that Tribulation and Wrath are one and the same?

Please give me an answer and tell me where the Word of God says anything about the Great Tribulation being the Wrath of God.[/quote]

The Bible does make it very clear that "THE TRIBULATION" (not tribulation in general) and the wrath of God being poured out on this earth are one and the same. I have shown parallel passages that teach this. Tribulation means "trouble or affliction" - Christians are promised deliverance from (ie. won't be there) that particular seven year tribulational period.

[Palatka51]

[quote="Jerry"]
The Bible does make it very clear that "THE TRIBULATION" (not tribulation in general) and the wrath of God being poured out on this earth are one and the same. I have shown parallel passages that teach this. Tribulation means "trouble or affliction" - Christians are promised deliverance from (ie. won't be there) that particular seven year tribulational period.[/quote]
1 Peter 4:12-19
12[b]Beloved, [color=#0000BF]think it not strange concerning [/color][color=#FF0000]the fiery trial which is to try you[/color], as though some strange thing happened unto you: [/b]
13[b]But rejoice, inasmuch [color=#0000BF]as ye are partakers of Christ?s sufferings;[/color] that, [color=#FF0000]when his glory shall be revealed[/color], ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. [/b]
14[b]If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. [/b]
15[b]But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men?s matters. [/b]
16[b]Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, [color=#0000BF]let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf[/color]. [/b]
17[b][color=#0000BF]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:[/color] [color=#408000]and if it first begin at us, [/color][color=#FF0000]what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [/color][/b]
18[b]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [/b]
19[b]Wherefore [color=#0000BF]let them that suffer according to the will of God[/color] commit the [color=#0000BF]keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.[/color][/b]
______________________________________________________________________
Verse 15
15[b]But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men?s matters.[/b] Our Tribulation will not be the same suffering that will come of the murder, thief, busybody or an evildoer for theirs is a wrathful judgment.

Again verse 17
17[b][color=#0000BF]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:[/color][/b]Tribulation [color=#408000][b]and if it first begin at us, [/color][color=#FF0000]what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [/color][/b]Wrath

Verse 18
18[b][color=#0000BF]And if the righteous scarcely be saved,[/color] [/b] In Tribulation[color=#FF0000] [b]where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[/color][/b] In Wrath

Verse 19
[b]Wherefore [color=#0000BF]let them that suffer according to the will of God[/color] commit the [color=#0000BF]keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.[/color][/b] What is the will of God in context to? Verse 17.

[heartstrings]

1. There is a big difference between "tribulation" and "The Great Tribulation". All believers have had tribulations since the beginning.
"Tribulation" means troubles and trials. Man is of "few days and full of troubles" the Bible says. But "The Great Tribulation" is a future period of time in which the Devil will have no restraint and then God's wrath will be poured out.
The Bible says that before the Great Tribulation can come, "he who now letteth" will be taken out of the way. This can be none other than the Holy Spirit. How can this be done if Believers are still on this earth? If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and beleivers are left behind, that would be a contradiction to the Word of God....because once you are a believer, the Holy Spirit lives in you forever.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If I read that right, we are going to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. But when he comes back and sets his foot on the Mount of Olives at the END of the Great Tribulation, we will be coming back to this earth with Him. If I'm wrong, tell me.

[Jerry]

Again verse 17
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:Tribulation and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Wrath

Verse 18
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, In Tribulation where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? In Wrath

Nothing like adding your own words into the Bible to twist it and make it say what you want. That passage is not even dealing with what we are talking about.

[heartstrings]

We have tribulation NOW
Rom 5:1

[HappyChristian]

In Noah's world men were setting themselves up as god's.
Genesis 6:4
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

In Peleg's world they were trusting in the works of their hands to reach Heaven.
Genesis 11:4
4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

In Lot's world it was homosexuality.
Genesis 19:4&5
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

In Egypt it was witchcraft (2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses) and Pharaoh sitting as a god and the worship of nature as gods, ie; the Nile, flies, frogs, sun, moon and darkness.
Exodus chapter 1 through chapter 12.

In Canaan it was the throwing babies into the fire of the idols.
2 Chronicles 28:3
3Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

Then as Israel was in the period of the Judges, all of the above things were in the mix as God judged them from generation unto generation. It was likewise throughout the period of the kings. When their transgressions became full God sewed them out of the land that He gave them. In the Old Testament He said vomit. They had defiled their way and God judged them worthy of chastisement. Taken away into Babylon they endured persecution for 70 years and even near annihilation under the reign of Xerxes as is told in the book of Esther. Yet God was faithful to His promise and restored them to their inheritance.

Sense Nebuchadnezzar and until 1948ad, the Holy Land has been under Gentile control and Jerusalem was until 1968ad. As we all know, the Church had it's beginning in the book of Acts. Now God has dealt with nations as to how they have treated the Church. We can see that in the OT God dealt with nations as to how they treated Israel. The similarities are uncanny. Both are witnesses of Jesus Christ and both have the Law, one in stone tablets and the other in fleshly tablets. Judgment began at the House of God then and Judgment will begin at the House of God today.

Pharaoh brought hardship upon Israel while they dwelt in Goshan. Israel was involved with the same idol worship as the Egyptians and they did not turn back to God until they had hard tribulation.
Joshua 24:14&15
14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Now God is set to bring wrath upon the world again. And as it was in Noah's time this will not be one nation or one empire but the whole world over. And just as the fathers of the OT, judgment will begin at the house of God. (House of God ie Temple, and inconsequently is where the two witnesses are)
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. Context is that Peter is addressing the Church. He is not reciting Jewish history.

Why must judgment come upon the Church?
Revelation 3:14-19
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
This Tribulation is called the Great Tribulation because it will come upon the whole world at one time and will endure for a very short 3 1/2 years. Many peoples of the whole Earth will be saved (the most of which will be the Jewish nation and the lost tribes of the same) and the rest will get the mark of the Beast. Revelation 13:17&18. Then the Church will be caught up and out, as the wrath of God is brought down upon those that have followed the Beast and the false prophet for the remaining 3 1/2 years.

I'm just a tad confused...this is in the prophecy forum, so am I correct in assuming you believe Christians will go through the tribulation period?

[Palatka51]

[quote="John"]Nothing like adding your own words into the Bible to twist it and make it say what you want. That passage is not even dealing with what we are talking about.[/quote] Do you really think that John? I have not added anything. In fact I was very careful to keep my words Identified. It is very clear what is mine (normal font) and what is scripture (emboldened and highlighted fonts).
[quote="heartstrings"]
1. There is a big difference between "tribulation" and "The Great Tribulation". All believers have had tribulations since the beginning.
"Tribulation" means troubles and trials. Man is of "few days and full of troubles" the Bible says. But "The Great Tribulation" is a future period of time in which the Devil will have no restraint and then God's wrath will be poured out.
The Bible says that before the Great Tribulation can come, "he who now letteth" will be taken out of the way. This can be none other than the Holy Spirit. How can this be done if Believers are still on this earth? If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and beleivers are left behind, that would be a contradiction to the Word of God....because once you are a believer, the Holy Spirit lives in you forever.[/quote]

Where in God's Holy Word does it say that the Great Tribulation is wrath?

When the Church was persecuted by Saul they fled from Jerusalem into all the world. Regional tribulation. Many took up shop in Damascus. Saul was then given the warrant to go there and arrest the Apostles. Then Jesus met him on that fateful road and the rest was history. Persecution always followed the Church and it continued to have tribulation. In Rome they fled to the catacombs. Tribulation kept the Church moving, all the while spreading the Gospel to new lands and regions. The people of the Church soon filled up Europe and there was no where else to flee and tribulation and hard persecution clouded the European Nations with the blood of the Saints until 1492 a New Land had been found. And it was not long before the seas were the new trail of fleeing Saints to worship without fear for blood. 300 years later a new Nation would be born to secure the blessings of Liberty. Now for the last 232 years this nation has lived without fear for blood as God is worshiped according to our conscience toward Him. This present generation of the Church in the US is the most defiled that has ever been. Denominations are ordaining women as well as homos*xuals as Pastors. Seminaries are allowing atheist to teach. Many are snuggling up to Roman Catholicism. 50% of marriages in the Church are in divorce, many are preachers. Child molesting is reported among church leaders. Adultery is common among official church members. Church members are addicted to p*rn, alcohol and elicit drugs and yet they all name Christ as their savior. Yes indeed Satan has violated the house of God. Oh and lest we forget, the very body of professing believers insist that there are errors and untruths in His Holy Word.

Meanwhile;
[list]China has 100's of thousands of Christians in labor camps.
Christian women are having to decide between food for their infants or starvation if only they would convert to Islam in Darfur.
New Christian converts are beheaded by their fathers in Islamic lands. [/list:u]

All this is tribulation but Great Tribulation will be all over the world in one concerted effort to rid it of Christianity once and for all. It is called the Great Tribulation as it will have never been done as a universal effort until now. Satan will be given the authority to make war with the Church. Rev 11:3

Remember who it was that gave Satan the go ahead to afflict Job? It was God. You are correct to infer that it is the Holy Spirit that withholds Satan. It was God who withheld Israel's enemies until Israel's transgressions became so great that he had to judge them. And it is God who has wounded Satan so that his strength is wained for the last 2000 years.

Satan's wounded head is healing if it's not healed already. Great Tribulation is coming and there will be no place to run. Isn't it strange that it is the Western Church that believes it will be taken before they have to contend unto blood? When within it is the most backsliden and defiled of the believers of Christ. Well not really strange I say. Who wants correction and chastisement?

What is it that Paul told the Church at Corinth?

1 Corinthians 5:1-12
1[b]It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father?s wife.[/b]
2[b]And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. [/b]
3[b]For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [/b]
4[b]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [/b]
5[b][color=#FF0000]To deliver[/color] such an one [color=#FF0000]unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh[/color],[color=#0000BF] that the spirit may be saved [/color][color=#FF8000]in the day of the Lord Jesus[/color].[/b]
6[b]Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?[/b]
7[b]Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [/b]
8[b]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.[/b]
9[b]I wrote unto you in an epistle [color=#FF0000]not to company with fornicators:[/color] [/b]
10[b]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; [color=#FF0000]for then must ye needs go out of the world[/color]. [/b]
11[b]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. [/b]
12[b]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? [color=#FF0000]do not ye judge them that are within?[/color] [/b]
13[b]But them that are without God judgeth. [color=#0000BF]Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.[/color][/b]

My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, the Western Church has not been doing what Paul has instructed the Church to do. In fact the western Church promotes such as this man that was in the Corinthian Church. Judgment is coming and it will begin at us. When it does see that you are not suffering as an evildoer but as a Saint of the Living God. Tribulation worketh patients and patients, hope. Knowing that God is going to do a short work, sealing souls for eternity, in just 3 1/2 years.

Remember Tribulation is never spoken in the Bible as being the same as wrath.

[Palatka51]

[quote="HappyChristian"]
I'm just a tad confused...this is in the prophecy forum, so am I correct in assuming you believe Christians will go through the tribulation period?[/quote]

Tribulation yes, wrath no.

[heartstrings]

So, What is it you are trying to teach with this "tribualtion is not wrath" ?
Are you trying to say that the rapture is not pre-tribulational?
If you are, you are wrong.