Pre-Tribulation Rapture Scripture?

[Kenny5682]

I've gone through several scriptures related to the Rapture, and I'm getting the impression that the Church will not be raptured until after the tribulation period. Phrases such as "At the last trump" and "After these things" lead me to believe that we'll still be here.

I've also heard some Independent Baptists claim that nobody will be saved during the Tribulation Period. We don't have the option to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that nobody will be saved.

John saw a number "which no man could count" standing before the throne of God clothed in white robes. The Bible makes it pretty clear that they are the ones slain during the Tribulation. It's obviously not the 144,000 because they've already been counted.

So, scripturally, what's the evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture?

[Jerry]

Some of the reasons for believing it are:

The verses stating that Christians will not experience the wrath of God. The Bible teaches that the entire Tribulation period - covered in the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 (in part) and other passages - is a time of God's wrath upon the whole earth. The NT church is promised that they will not undergo God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The context of the following is very clearly referring to the wrath poured out upon earth during the day of the Lord, not God's wrath on the lost sinner in Hell:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Passages that show the whole tribulation period is the time of God's wrath upon the earth.

Comparing Luke 21 and Isaiah 13 shows that what the believers were experiencing and seeing WHILE waiting for the Lord's return during the Tribulation period was man's response to God's wrath.

Notice how Luke goes from the destruction of Jerusalem to the endtimes:

Luke 21:24-28 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When the believers saw what I highlighted, they were to expect the Lord's soon return. Now look at this passage next which shows that what happened was because of God's wrath:

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Some people who teach mid-Trib, post-Trib, or Pre-wrath try to make it like believers are here UNTIL God's wrath is poured out - yet comparing Luke and Isaiah shows that all seven years is God's wrath.

Another point to consider is that the church is not mentioned in the OT. The time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), the seven year Tribulation period, was the time when God would turn back to Jerusalem and the Israelites and deal with them again. That is why Matthew 24 refers to Daniels' prophecy (from Daniel 9), the sabbath, the rebuilt temple, referring to the fig tree (always symbolic of Israel), the Judean hills, etc. Revelation 6-19 contain the description of events that happen during those seven years - and the church is not mentioned at all in those chapters, until chapter 19 when they are returning with Christ FROM Heaven.

This verse is another clincher:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[Palatka51]

This verse is another clincher:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is in reference to the Church at Philadelphia. This Church is being taken as we speak. Naturally.

As Churches continue in this world they are getting more worldly. Songs that appeal to the flesh and not to edify the spirit are the norm these days. Sermons that do not call men to repentance are preached to ever increasingly, large congregations. Preachers are drawing thousands to stadium churches with a prosperity and emergent "gospel" denying the Truth of the Word. And Pastors that call the Church to revival and repentance are preaching to smaller and smaller congregations. Pastors that teach from the AV are turned out of the Churched in droves. The homos*xual is promoted to the position of Pastor or Bishop. Meanwhile the culture is ever increasing in depravity and sin. Thus it is the age of Laodicea.
Revelation 3:17-19
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

[heartstrings]

The saints at the rapture.......
Meet Jesus In the air
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
If Jesus comes down to the earth at this time, what would be the point of meeting "in the air"??

Then.....Follow Jesus From Heaven
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To the earth
Zechariah chapter 14


He comes in the air, for the saints....before the tribulation period.....but he comes down, with the saints, to the earth and sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

[Jerry]

This is in reference to the Church at Philadelphia. This Church is being taken as we speak. Naturally.

Taken as we speak? Naturally? What do you mean by that? There is no rapture going on now, and God isn't promising them deliverance from that time of trouble by having them die first.

The primary church of the endtimes is Laodicea - however, there are still other churches that fit Philadelphia. I believe my church does - they hold to God's Word, take the open doors to get the Gospel out, etc. (Though I believe the rapture is for all true believers that are living at that time - not just those who are the most faithful, etc.)

[Palatka51]

The saints at the rapture.......
Meet Jesus In the air
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
If Jesus comes down to the earth at this time, what would be the point of meeting "in the air"??

Then.....Follow Jesus From Heaven
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To the earth
Zechariah chapter 14


He comes in the air, for the saints....before the tribulation period.....but he comes down, with the saints, to the earth and sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

I don't think that I have ever stated that Jesus is going to stand on the Earth as the Church is taken up. Jesus appears in the air just as He left. After the Church is gone there will be wrath on those sealed with the mark of the Beast. After that, Jesus returns, with us behind Him, to set up the 1000 year reign.

[heartstrings]

I don't think that I have ever stated that Jesus is going to stand on the Earth as the Church is taken up. Jesus appears in the air just as He left. After the Church is gone there will be wrath on those sealed with the mark of the Beast. After that, Jesus returns, with us behind Him, to set up the 1000 year reign.

So you're saying it's going to be a MID tribulational rapture then?

[Guest Guest]

:goodpost:

Here is another scripture to keep in mind. I thessalonians 4:16...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumph of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: KJV. I use the Bible both as a history book of the world...and, also for life application. That scripture appears prior to book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. We are presently in The Epistle of Jude This Epistle (letter) is only one chapter. In this chapter Apostates are Predicted. That is why it is EVER so important to keep close to the word of God... the KJV, and be faithful and obedient to the Saviour of the world.

I am glad that you are serving the Lord again. :thumb

Also, I heard this one time...and, since I am more of a simple person...I guess this will always "stick" in my mind. "Before God destroyed the earth with the flood...he told Noah to come into the ark. Before the Lord destroyed the city of Sodom and Gomorrah...he told Lot to come out of the city...and, lastly for the "true" believer he will tell us to come up into the clouds". If a person is really saved, then...the Lord will protect His children from the devastation during the Pre-Tibulation period and the Great-Tribulation. Jesus takes care of His kids...ALL the time!

candlelight

[deputydog530]

[quote]candlelight wrote:
Jesus takes care of His kids...ALL the time![/quote]

Exactly. Would you beat your child to death for getting into the cookie jar? No.(not if your sane) God's chastizment and God's wrath are two different things.

Jerry explained God's wrath very well. If you let scripture interpret scripture, you just cant get to any other conclusion but Pre-trib rapture.

[Yankee Candle]

[color=#8040FF][size=150]The timing of the rapture:

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But what is this escape?

" 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

But how do we identify the time of the rapture?

Answer: by the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, which always began on the [b]new moon[/b]. There were many of them throughout the course of that day. (not the last trump of Revelation, because no rapture takes place after the last horn is blown in Rev. 11).

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/P0400774-1.jpg[/img]
[/size][/color][/size]

[Jerry]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you - but if you believe that the rapture will specifically occur on a new moon, you are wrong - God says we cannot know the day or hour ahead of time (that would include a specific day of the month too).

[Yankee Candle]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you - but if you believe that the rapture will specifically occur on a new moon, you are wrong - God says we cannot know the day or hour ahead of time (that would include a specific day of the month too).

You are correct. The Feast of Trumpets is to us, only a type/symbol of things to come. But even so, it COULD happen on a new moon. We just have no idea which one. No man knows the day nor the hour.

God bless you. Have a wonderful day.

[5dumplings@home]

The saints at the rapture.......
Meet Jesus In the air
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
If Jesus comes down to the earth at this time, what would be the point of meeting "in the air"??

Then.....Follow Jesus From Heaven
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To the earth
Zechariah chapter 14


He comes in the air, for the saints....before the tribulation period.....but he comes down, with the saints, to the earth and sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

Besides all these excellent points, we see that there is a marriage supper of the lamb in heaven during the tribulation period. If the Bride is still on earth, who is celebrating the marriage?

[Yankee Candle]

Besides all these excellent points, we see that there is a marriage supper of the lamb in heaven during the tribulation period. If the Bride is still on earth, who is celebrating the marriage?

That is a very good point, a point I have been making elsewhere. The point of the Feast of Trumpets was that the 'time of awe' begins after the last trumpet that was blown on that very special day. It started by a time of rejoicing, but then was followed by a time of mourning and weeping over sin. So shall it be at the coming of the Lord for His people. We shall rejoice. They shall mourn.

[PreacherBen]

Bro. Jerry posted the following scripture to show that the entire tribulation is a time of God's wrath and earlier stated that Christians are not subject to God's wrath and therefore are not going through the trib. But notice:

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

It is very clear from this same passage that God is going to pour his wrath out on sinners, evil doers, the wicked for their iniquity, the arrogant proud,and the haughty, but not the gentle follower of Christ. This would be completely consistent with the clincher:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world is not for the believer, that is the Second Coming as described in Rev. 19, after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which the believers have been caught up to.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Why are they blessed for being called?

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here He is pouring out the fierceness and wrath that he promised in Isaiah 13, but not upon the saints, they are in white with Him watching the whole thing.

Also, true, it is called the time of Jacobs trouble, but we cannot ignore the words of Christ nor the sequence of events as described out of the very mouth of Jesus. You can go around many things, but you cannot go around the very words of Christ, and please pay close attention to the sequence of events as described by Jesus.

Mat 24:29