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5 hours ago, Salyan said:

OK, so first of all you didn’t actually answer my question. Secondly, You’re adding an interpretation of those verses that is simply not in the clear reading of the text. They could mean the sun’s light is removed (doesn’t specify how, so you shouldn’t), or they could just mean that the light of the Son is so great we don’t even notice the natural lights of heaven anymore. 

This is called “private interpretation”, Eric. It’s fiction, not Bible study, and it’s wrong. May I respectfully suggest that you refrain from making up your own explanations for things that God has chosen not to explain??

Isaiah 16:1-5

 
 

Isaiah says that the Lamb will make a shadow at noon day when Israel has to flee. If you look at many of the prophecy's about the day of Lord there is a darkness or shadow.

 

Isaiah
Chapter 16

 

1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

 

Habakkuk saw a vision of the sun and moon standing still before Armageddon.

Habakkuk 3:11-13

11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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On 7/6/2019 at 4:15 PM, Eric Stahl said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 21:1-3

Revelation 21:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 21:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Edited by Alan
grammer Revelation 22:1-3 & 23 to Revelation 21:1-3 & 23
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14 minutes ago, Alan said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 22:1-3

Revelation 22:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 22:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation.

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25 minutes ago, Eric Stahl said:

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation.

I fully know that Isaiah 60:3-22 is prophesying concerning the rebuilding of Israel and the repopulating of the earth and that the sun and the moon is still in existence in the heavens. If you read my post very carefully I just said that Verse 18-20 is the extension of the millennium into eternity exactly as Revelation 22:1-3, and 23 state.

I also noted, but you ignored, that Revelation 22:23 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:19-20, " The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee am everlasting [notice the word EVERLASTING] light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting [notice the word EVERLASTING] light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended."

Only in eternity, Revelation 22:1 and following, can any of the prophecies in Isaiah 60:19-20 be fulfilled.

THERE IS NO SHADOW OF THE SUN IN ETERNITY AND THERE IS NO MOON TO BLOCK THE RAYS OF THE SUN UPON ISRAEL.

Edited by Alan
spelling thing to thine
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1 hour ago, Eric Stahl said:

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation. 

As an added note.

If you look at my post carefully, I mentioned only Isaiah 60:19-20 and then Eric Stahl included verse 22 in his answer. I purposely did not mention verse 22. Verse 22 states, "A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time."

All of us need to remember one important fact concerning the prophesies of Isaiah, and the other prophets. Isaiah, and the other prophets, saw the blessings of the Lord on the earth with a view of eternity and not just one thousand years. The apostle John in Revelation 20:4-6 gave a specific time limit, one thousand years, for several reasons which I will not go into now, and then listed the added blessings in Revelation 22:1 and following that the Old Testament prophets saw. Therefore, the apostle John is the revealing of the sorting out of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets in the order that the Holy Spirit gave him. John is giving us the proper order of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets. The Old Testament prophets did not have the prophecies of the church, nor a specific time limit, a thousand years, nor the the other added details that John was given in his vision at the isle of Patmos.

 

 

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On 7/7/2019 at 5:46 PM, Alan said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 22:1-3

Revelation 22:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 22:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Alan you mean Revelation 21:23. Yes Jesus as the light will continue in eternity when God comes down to earth. The sun and moon are not mentioned in eternity. We are not told much about eternity. But we will be there and I can't wait!

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On 7/11/2019 at 1:44 PM, Eric Stahl said:

Alan you mean Revelation 21:23. Yes Jesus as the light will continue in eternity when God comes down to earth. The sun and moon are not mentioned in eternity. We are not told much about eternity. But we will be there and I can't wait!

As I previously brought out, there is no physical sun nor moon in eternity. Also, Revelation 22:5, states, "And there shall no night there; and they need no candle, neither the light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

As previously stated, Isaiah 60:19-20 is absolutely talking about eternity and not the 1000 Year Reign of Christ on the earth. Therefore, there is no moon and sun  to create any type of shadow, especially, a "pole shift" in relationship to Isaiah 60:19-20. The concept of a "pole shift" is not scientific nor is it biblical.

Edited by Alan
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On 7/11/2019 at 6:27 PM, Alan said:

As I previously brought out, there is no physical sun nor moon in eternity. Also, Revelation 22:5, states, "And there shall no night there; and they need no candle, neither the light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

As previously stated, Isaiah 60:19-20 is absolutely talking about eternity and not the 1000 Year Reign of Christ on the earth. Therefore, there is no moon and sun  to create any type of shadow, especially, a "pole shift" in relationship to Isaiah 60:19-20. The concept of a "pole shift" is not scientific nor is it biblical.

Brother Alan , We will have to disagree on verse 19-20. I believe it starts in the tribulation at Habakkuk 3:11-13 and continues through the 1000 year kingdom.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/4/2019 at 3:31 PM, Salyan said:

I’m sorry... which of the plagues were supposedly worldwide? And what evidence have you for this?

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

  And the Pawnees have a legend about the sun's starting to rise when it noticed a hare had made a trap for it, and so the sun retreated for awhile til the hare grew tired & went away, then it resumed its normal course. If the sun's retrograde movement for Hezekiah occurred around noon, that would correspond with sunrise time in the east of North America. And old Persian legends have stories about calamities similar to those in Exodus.

 

  I read about those various legends in several history books many years ago. Wish I could recall their names. And I've read all of Immanuel Velikovsky's works about the events of the Exodus, which also point out the occurrence of many of its plagues all over the world. That's the one source I can name right now.

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On 7/27/2019 at 3:34 PM, robycop3 said:

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

Have you have any proof that the Amalekites were the Hyksos?  I have read that before many years ago, that when they attacked the Exodosees in Sinai, they were on their way to Egypt and when Saul attacked them they were on their way out.  But is there any proof?

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13 hours ago, Invicta said:

Have you have any proof that the Amalekites were the Hyksos?  I have read that before many years ago, that when they attacked the Exodosees in Sinai, they were on their way to Egypt and when Saul attacked them they were on their way out.  But is there any proof?

 Two exponents of that view are Prof. Immanuel Velikovsky & Dr. J. Stark.  V gave documentation that said the Amalekites controlled the caravan route leading to & from Egypt to Israel & several other nations with whom they traded by setting up the city of Auris(also known as Avris) astride it, to tax every caravan using that route.(They were forced to use certain routes by the water situation.) Slowly, as years passed, the Egyptians had been whittling down the Amalekites' grip on Egypt, but didn't have the strength to take Auris. But God sent Saul & the Israelis to destroy it, & they killed  everyone there, except its king Agag.(Story in 1 Samuel 15) This did not exterminate all the Amalekites, as we still see them in David's time some 40 years later, but it broke their power in Egypt & removed their taxation of the caravans. That's why some 80 years later, Egypt showed gratitude to Solomon.

 

   According to Stark, those Amalekites were also known as the "Shepherd Kings" & the "Amu", the name of their last Pharaoh. (Agag was king of Auris only.) Velikovsky said that their land had been hit hard by many of the plagues that wrecked Egypt at the Exodus, & that's why they were on the move, as they'd heard Egypt had been hit harder, & was ripe for the picking. Besides, God had chosen to punish Egypt for its enslaving the Israelis after Joseph & the Pharaoh whom he served were dead. Thus, Egypt was ruled by foreigners for 400 years, same amount of time Israel had been in Egypt.

 

  And they weren't on their way out of Egypt when Saul wiped out Auris. However, they were slowly being ousted or killed. The end of Auris ended their finances

 

  The earlier history of Amalek isn't well-known, although God said that at one time they were the first(most-powerful, richest, not 'earliest") of all the nations. They were descended from Esau thru his grandson Amalek. The last Biblical reference  that was possibly about an Amakekite  was the story of Haman in the Book of Esther, who was said to have been an Amalekite.

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Est 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.

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On 7/27/2019 at 9:34 AM, robycop3 said:

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

  And the Pawnees have a legend about the sun's starting to rise when it noticed a hare had made a trap for it, and so the sun retreated for awhile til the hare grew tired & went away, then it resumed its normal course. If the sun's retrograde movement for Hezekiah occurred around noon, that would correspond with sunrise time in the east of North America. And old Persian legends have stories about calamities similar to those in Exodus.

 

  I read about those various legends in several history books many years ago. Wish I could recall their names. And I've read all of Immanuel Velikovsky's works about the events of the Exodus, which also point out the occurrence of many of its plagues all over the world. That's the one source I can name right now.

None of the references submitted above are scriptural evidence that the 10 Plagues as written by Moses in the book of Exodus was world-wide. Forgive me for being blunt, the information concerning the Amalekites, legend of the Pawnees, Persian legends, and other north American Indian legends are not proof of any kind.

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6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

Two exponents of that view are Prof. Immanuel Velikovsky

Here is a quote from Wikipedia concerning  Professor Immanuel Velikovsky and his theories concerning the Old Testament and science.

"In general, Velikovsky's theories have been ignored or vigorously rejected by the academic community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

 

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19 hours ago, Alan said:

 

Here is a quote from Wikipedia concerning  Professor Immanuel Velikovsky and his theories concerning the Old Testament and science.

"In general, Velikovsky's theories have been ignored or vigorously rejected by the academic community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

 

His methodology, ignorance of established scientific fact and determination to persist, tend to discredit both his person and his work.

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On 8/12/2019 at 3:21 AM, Alan said:

None of the references submitted above are scriptural evidence that the 10 Plagues as written by Moses in the book of Exodus was world-wide. Forgive me for being blunt, the information concerning the Amalekites, legend of the Pawnees, Persian legends, and other north American Indian legends are not proof of any kind.

Isn't it funny that the Bible often upsets what people want to teach?????

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  • 1 month later...

  I don't put a massive amount of stock in the pronouncements of the "scientific community". (The "global warming" scam, for instance.) This same community often rejects SCRIPTURE as untrue, (How many "scientists" believe the sun & moon stood still for Joshua?) despite the fact that archaeology, etc. are proving more & more of Scriptural history narrations as true ?

 

  Thus, we can't lightly dismiss ancient chronicles, nor the theories of people such as Velikovsky as false. Remember, V gave many sources for his intel. I was entirely-skeptical of his stuff as well til I checked out some of the sources he cited, which is now much-easier to do, thanx to the internet. And Wikipedia can be as dubious an intel source as many others.

 

  Remember, V was a Russian Jew who sought to prove certain Scriptural events wrong, such as the sun & moon remaining still for Joshua. he came away as believing all those events to be completely true. And many of his secular "educated guesses", such as the high temperature of Venus' surface, have proven correct.  OF COURSE I don't believe he was 100% correct, but I don't believe he was 100% wrong, either.

 

  While some men may be 99% correct, only SCRIPTURE is 100% correct.

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On 8/11/2019 at 1:38 PM, robycop3 said:

  According to Stark, those Amalekites were also known as the "Shepherd Kings" & the "Amu", the name of their last Pharaoh. (Agag was king of Auris only.) Velikovsky said that their land had been hit hard by many of the plagues that wrecked Egypt at the Exodus, & that's why they were on the move, as they'd heard Egypt had been hit harder, & was ripe for the picking. Besides, God had chosen to punish Egypt for its enslaving the Israelis after Joseph & the Pharaoh whom he served were dead. Thus, Egypt was ruled by foreigners for 400 years, same amount of time Israel had been in Egypt.

 

Josephus mentions them as shepherd kings, but also refers to them as captive shepherds.  I think he was quoting mixed up Egyptian sources.  Also that Moses was their leader.

It may be true that they were the Amalekites.  But against that is Joseph having to eat separately from the Egyptians because the Hebrews were shepherds.   

 

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