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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Coming pole shift


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5 hours ago, Salyan said:

OK, so first of all you didn’t actually answer my question. Secondly, You’re adding an interpretation of those verses that is simply not in the clear reading of the text. They could mean the sun’s light is removed (doesn’t specify how, so you shouldn’t), or they could just mean that the light of the Son is so great we don’t even notice the natural lights of heaven anymore. 

This is called “private interpretation”, Eric. It’s fiction, not Bible study, and it’s wrong. May I respectfully suggest that you refrain from making up your own explanations for things that God has chosen not to explain??

Isaiah 16:1-5

 
 

Isaiah says that the Lamb will make a shadow at noon day when Israel has to flee. If you look at many of the prophecy's about the day of Lord there is a darkness or shadow.

 

Isaiah
Chapter 16

 

1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

 

Habakkuk saw a vision of the sun and moon standing still before Armageddon.

Habakkuk 3:11-13

11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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On 7/6/2019 at 4:15 PM, Eric Stahl said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 21:1-3

Revelation 21:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 21:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Edited by Alan
grammer Revelation 22:1-3 & 23 to Revelation 21:1-3 & 23
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14 minutes ago, Alan said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 22:1-3

Revelation 22:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 22:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation.

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25 minutes ago, Eric Stahl said:

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation.

I fully know that Isaiah 60:3-22 is prophesying concerning the rebuilding of Israel and the repopulating of the earth and that the sun and the moon is still in existence in the heavens. If you read my post very carefully I just said that Verse 18-20 is the extension of the millennium into eternity exactly as Revelation 22:1-3, and 23 state.

I also noted, but you ignored, that Revelation 22:23 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:19-20, " The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee am everlasting [notice the word EVERLASTING] light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting [notice the word EVERLASTING] light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended."

Only in eternity, Revelation 22:1 and following, can any of the prophecies in Isaiah 60:19-20 be fulfilled.

THERE IS NO SHADOW OF THE SUN IN ETERNITY AND THERE IS NO MOON TO BLOCK THE RAYS OF THE SUN UPON ISRAEL.

Edited by Alan
spelling thing to thine
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1 hour ago, Eric Stahl said:

Alan

Isaiah 60:3-22 is about the rebuilding of Israel and repopulating the earth. the sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light to Israel which is still in the shadow. notice verse 20 , the sun and moon do not withdraw so they are still there over Israel. verse 22 tells us that one person will have so many children they become a nation. 

As an added note.

If you look at my post carefully, I mentioned only Isaiah 60:19-20 and then Eric Stahl included verse 22 in his answer. I purposely did not mention verse 22. Verse 22 states, "A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time."

All of us need to remember one important fact concerning the prophesies of Isaiah, and the other prophets. Isaiah, and the other prophets, saw the blessings of the Lord on the earth with a view of eternity and not just one thousand years. The apostle John in Revelation 20:4-6 gave a specific time limit, one thousand years, for several reasons which I will not go into now, and then listed the added blessings in Revelation 22:1 and following that the Old Testament prophets saw. Therefore, the apostle John is the revealing of the sorting out of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets in the order that the Holy Spirit gave him. John is giving us the proper order of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets. The Old Testament prophets did not have the prophecies of the church, nor a specific time limit, a thousand years, nor the the other added details that John was given in his vision at the isle of Patmos.

 

 

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On 7/7/2019 at 5:46 PM, Alan said:

The Book of Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Reign of Christ on the earth and the changes of the earth.

The Book of Isaiah also has prophecies concerning the extension of the Reign of Christ, and the Dwelling of God on the New Earth and the New Heaven (notice the  singular Heaven not plural), after the Great White Throne of Judgment. Isaiah 60:18-20 is of one of those prophecies that clearly indicate there will be no sun in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And, God will dwell on the earth. The dwelling of God on the earth does not occur during the millennium.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 22:1-3

Revelation 22:1-3 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:18-20 and 65:17

May we remember that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there is no sun. Revelation 22:23, And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Alan you mean Revelation 21:23. Yes Jesus as the light will continue in eternity when God comes down to earth. The sun and moon are not mentioned in eternity. We are not told much about eternity. But we will be there and I can't wait!

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On 7/11/2019 at 1:44 PM, Eric Stahl said:

Alan you mean Revelation 21:23. Yes Jesus as the light will continue in eternity when God comes down to earth. The sun and moon are not mentioned in eternity. We are not told much about eternity. But we will be there and I can't wait!

As I previously brought out, there is no physical sun nor moon in eternity. Also, Revelation 22:5, states, "And there shall no night there; and they need no candle, neither the light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

As previously stated, Isaiah 60:19-20 is absolutely talking about eternity and not the 1000 Year Reign of Christ on the earth. Therefore, there is no moon and sun  to create any type of shadow, especially, a "pole shift" in relationship to Isaiah 60:19-20. The concept of a "pole shift" is not scientific nor is it biblical.

Edited by Alan
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On 7/11/2019 at 6:27 PM, Alan said:

As I previously brought out, there is no physical sun nor moon in eternity. Also, Revelation 22:5, states, "And there shall no night there; and they need no candle, neither the light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

As previously stated, Isaiah 60:19-20 is absolutely talking about eternity and not the 1000 Year Reign of Christ on the earth. Therefore, there is no moon and sun  to create any type of shadow, especially, a "pole shift" in relationship to Isaiah 60:19-20. The concept of a "pole shift" is not scientific nor is it biblical.

Brother Alan , We will have to disagree on verse 19-20. I believe it starts in the tribulation at Habakkuk 3:11-13 and continues through the 1000 year kingdom.

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On 7/4/2019 at 3:31 PM, Salyan said:

I’m sorry... which of the plagues were supposedly worldwide? And what evidence have you for this?

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

  And the Pawnees have a legend about the sun's starting to rise when it noticed a hare had made a trap for it, and so the sun retreated for awhile til the hare grew tired & went away, then it resumed its normal course. If the sun's retrograde movement for Hezekiah occurred around noon, that would correspond with sunrise time in the east of North America. And old Persian legends have stories about calamities similar to those in Exodus.

 

  I read about those various legends in several history books many years ago. Wish I could recall their names. And I've read all of Immanuel Velikovsky's works about the events of the Exodus, which also point out the occurrence of many of its plagues all over the world. That's the one source I can name right now.

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On 7/27/2019 at 3:34 PM, robycop3 said:

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

Have you have any proof that the Amalekites were the Hyksos?  I have read that before many years ago, that when they attacked the Exodosees in Sinai, they were on their way to Egypt and when Saul attacked them they were on their way out.  But is there any proof?

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13 hours ago, Invicta said:

Have you have any proof that the Amalekites were the Hyksos?  I have read that before many years ago, that when they attacked the Exodosees in Sinai, they were on their way to Egypt and when Saul attacked them they were on their way out.  But is there any proof?

 Two exponents of that view are Prof. Immanuel Velikovsky & Dr. J. Stark.  V gave documentation that said the Amalekites controlled the caravan route leading to & from Egypt to Israel & several other nations with whom they traded by setting up the city of Auris(also known as Avris) astride it, to tax every caravan using that route.(They were forced to use certain routes by the water situation.) Slowly, as years passed, the Egyptians had been whittling down the Amalekites' grip on Egypt, but didn't have the strength to take Auris. But God sent Saul & the Israelis to destroy it, & they killed  everyone there, except its king Agag.(Story in 1 Samuel 15) This did not exterminate all the Amalekites, as we still see them in David's time some 40 years later, but it broke their power in Egypt & removed their taxation of the caravans. That's why some 80 years later, Egypt showed gratitude to Solomon.

 

   According to Stark, those Amalekites were also known as the "Shepherd Kings" & the "Amu", the name of their last Pharaoh. (Agag was king of Auris only.) Velikovsky said that their land had been hit hard by many of the plagues that wrecked Egypt at the Exodus, & that's why they were on the move, as they'd heard Egypt had been hit harder, & was ripe for the picking. Besides, God had chosen to punish Egypt for its enslaving the Israelis after Joseph & the Pharaoh whom he served were dead. Thus, Egypt was ruled by foreigners for 400 years, same amount of time Israel had been in Egypt.

 

  And they weren't on their way out of Egypt when Saul wiped out Auris. However, they were slowly being ousted or killed. The end of Auris ended their finances

 

  The earlier history of Amalek isn't well-known, although God said that at one time they were the first(most-powerful, richest, not 'earliest") of all the nations. They were descended from Esau thru his grandson Amalek. The last Biblical reference  that was possibly about an Amakekite  was the story of Haman in the Book of Esther, who was said to have been an Amalekite.

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Est 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.

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On 7/27/2019 at 9:34 AM, robycop3 said:

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  The Amalekites were on the move when they & the Israelis brushed by each other in the wilderness. They were on their way to subdue Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus. The Amalekites' own land had been hit by many plagues, especially polluted water & vermin. Thwy were called "Hyksos" by the old Egyptians & they remained in Egypt til God started their downfall by having Saul & the Israelis wipe out their main stronghold of Auris in Egypt.  That's why Egypt was so generous with Israel in the days of David & Solomon.  And several North American Indian legends tell of plagues in North America similar to those of the Exodus.

 

  And the Pawnees have a legend about the sun's starting to rise when it noticed a hare had made a trap for it, and so the sun retreated for awhile til the hare grew tired & went away, then it resumed its normal course. If the sun's retrograde movement for Hezekiah occurred around noon, that would correspond with sunrise time in the east of North America. And old Persian legends have stories about calamities similar to those in Exodus.

 

  I read about those various legends in several history books many years ago. Wish I could recall their names. And I've read all of Immanuel Velikovsky's works about the events of the Exodus, which also point out the occurrence of many of its plagues all over the world. That's the one source I can name right now.

None of the references submitted above are scriptural evidence that the 10 Plagues as written by Moses in the book of Exodus was world-wide. Forgive me for being blunt, the information concerning the Amalekites, legend of the Pawnees, Persian legends, and other north American Indian legends are not proof of any kind.

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6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

Two exponents of that view are Prof. Immanuel Velikovsky

Here is a quote from Wikipedia concerning  Professor Immanuel Velikovsky and his theories concerning the Old Testament and science.

"In general, Velikovsky's theories have been ignored or vigorously rejected by the academic community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

 

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19 hours ago, Alan said:

 

Here is a quote from Wikipedia concerning  Professor Immanuel Velikovsky and his theories concerning the Old Testament and science.

"In general, Velikovsky's theories have been ignored or vigorously rejected by the academic community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

 

His methodology, ignorance of established scientific fact and determination to persist, tend to discredit both his person and his work.

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On 8/12/2019 at 3:21 AM, Alan said:

None of the references submitted above are scriptural evidence that the 10 Plagues as written by Moses in the book of Exodus was world-wide. Forgive me for being blunt, the information concerning the Amalekites, legend of the Pawnees, Persian legends, and other north American Indian legends are not proof of any kind.

Isn't it funny that the Bible often upsets what people want to teach?????

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  I don't put a massive amount of stock in the pronouncements of the "scientific community". (The "global warming" scam, for instance.) This same community often rejects SCRIPTURE as untrue, (How many "scientists" believe the sun & moon stood still for Joshua?) despite the fact that archaeology, etc. are proving more & more of Scriptural history narrations as true ?

 

  Thus, we can't lightly dismiss ancient chronicles, nor the theories of people such as Velikovsky as false. Remember, V gave many sources for his intel. I was entirely-skeptical of his stuff as well til I checked out some of the sources he cited, which is now much-easier to do, thanx to the internet. And Wikipedia can be as dubious an intel source as many others.

 

  Remember, V was a Russian Jew who sought to prove certain Scriptural events wrong, such as the sun & moon remaining still for Joshua. he came away as believing all those events to be completely true. And many of his secular "educated guesses", such as the high temperature of Venus' surface, have proven correct.  OF COURSE I don't believe he was 100% correct, but I don't believe he was 100% wrong, either.

 

  While some men may be 99% correct, only SCRIPTURE is 100% correct.

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On 8/11/2019 at 1:38 PM, robycop3 said:

  According to Stark, those Amalekites were also known as the "Shepherd Kings" & the "Amu", the name of their last Pharaoh. (Agag was king of Auris only.) Velikovsky said that their land had been hit hard by many of the plagues that wrecked Egypt at the Exodus, & that's why they were on the move, as they'd heard Egypt had been hit harder, & was ripe for the picking. Besides, God had chosen to punish Egypt for its enslaving the Israelis after Joseph & the Pharaoh whom he served were dead. Thus, Egypt was ruled by foreigners for 400 years, same amount of time Israel had been in Egypt.

 

Josephus mentions them as shepherd kings, but also refers to them as captive shepherds.  I think he was quoting mixed up Egyptian sources.  Also that Moses was their leader.

It may be true that they were the Amalekites.  But against that is Joseph having to eat separately from the Egyptians because the Hebrews were shepherds.   

 

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