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Anyone in your church not a Dispensationalist?


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2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

You used the verse in Hosea as proof that Israel (or Jews by your definition) aren't God's chosen people. I asked, "What about Judah?" To which, you gave a rabbit-trail response in order to step around the question.

1) You haven't explained why God told carnal Israel they aren't his people, if they are his people.

2) Judah, "Jews", isn't God's people because Jesus said they were children of the Devil (not God) in John 8.

3) In the OT, God said Judah is worse than Israel, and if Israel is not God's people for faithlessness, then Judah cannot be either.

4) Revelation refers to Jews as the Synagogue of Satan and Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.

5) You haven't explained why you reject Arabs, who are Abraham's children, as God's chosen people. In other words, you also believe it was worthless to Ishmael to be Abraham's son, regarding being God's people.

6) Each point above is sufficient alone to soundly refute the central Dispensationalist doctrine that Jews are God's chosen people.  

What was God's prerequisite for CHOOSING Israel as his chosen people? What was his prerequisite for continuing to call them his chosen people after the death of Abraham?


FAITH is the prerequisite, faith alone.  Everyone of faith is counted as a child of Abraham.

No. Is there a difference between the two? Yes...yes there is. There are many biblical references that attest to the fact that though Israel rejected God, they will once again not only be his chosen people, but they will once again be his people.

I'm am certain you are grossly misinterpreting any verse that says Jews will again be God's people.  Here's a hint, if it's an OT verse, it's probably about the restoration of Judah before Christ, or about the establishment of the NT church by Christ.   

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On 7/9/2018 at 6:41 PM, DaveW said:

By the way folks, what this man is talking about is NOT dispensationalism.

What he is talking about is a difference between the recognition of the NATION of Israel as the people God chose, and whether not they are still God's chosen nation. This is a small part of the actual divide.

This difference is actually a division between dispensationalists - who follow (to differing degrees) that God has divided time into "dispensations" ( you might recognize terms such as "the church age" or "the age of grace"), and between those who hold to Replacement theology (that the church has replaced Israel).

This is sometimes also called Covenant theology and a few other things.

Our "Brother D" is simply not honest enough to either use the correct definition of dispensationalism - which he clearly knows, but CHOSE to use a hidden definition of his own - nor to identify himself as a Covenant/replacement theologist.

This is no doubt because he KNOWS that it is not an acceptable theological position around here, so he CHOSE to attempt to deceive.

You can be a dispensationalism and NOT recognize Israel as God's chosen NATION, and you can recognise Israel as God's chosen NATION and not be a dispensationalist.

But you cannot act as this man has and be honest. His actions reveal him.

Your post is a desperate ploy to gain sympathy from your peers because you've been severely losing the debate.

I already defined "dispensationalism" earlier in this thread (parallel dispensations), and distinguished it from traditional Baptist dispensationalism of serial dispensations.  The things I'm addressing are beliefs held by people who identify as dispensationalists and hold the doctrine of parallel dispensations (a theology popularized by Pentecostals in recent decades).  So, my definition is fair, in spite of your objection.  Any competent person will define terms, if such an act is called for.  It's not at all a hidden definition, as you falsely claim.

It's very telling that you declare that what I'm talking about is not dispensationalism, yet you don't identify what I am talking about, if not dispenstionalism.   I'll gladly use whatever label you like, because the term itself isn't relevant.  How about "door knobs"?  It's not the details that matter, not the label.  I oppose your Door Knobism.  

In fact, it is your definition that fails.  You believe and defend parallel dispensations while defining dispensationalism as "God has divided time" into serial dispensations.  What's up with that?

I have been open and honest about my own theology, contrary to your false witness.  I've already clearly said, several times, that I believe the church is Israel, a trivial thing to defend with the Bible.  And, that the only people belonging to God in the old Testament was by faith.  I'll gladly answer any question about my  beliefs.  I have nothing to hide.   And, I have no need to act desperate.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Brother D said:

1) You haven't explained why God told carnal Israel they aren't his people, if they are his people.

 

Sir, did you even read my very first post in this thread? 

 

2) Judah, "Jews", isn't God's people because Jesus said they were children of the Devil (not God) in John 8.

3) In the OT, God said Judah is worse than Israel, and if Israel is not God's people for faithlessness, then Judah cannot be either.

Sir, did you even read my response to you which (in turn) caused you to respond with this above; in which, I'm once again responding? Why respond if you're not actually going to read what is written and respond accordingly? 

 

4) Revelation refers to Jews as the Synagogue of Satan and Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.

 

I hate to say this, but you might want to check your reference(s) regarding what you claim that Revelation says about the Jews as the Synagogue of Satan...

 

5) You haven't explained why you reject Arabs, who are Abraham's children, as God's chosen people. In other words, you also believe it was worthless to Ishmael to be Abraham's son, regarding being God's people.

 

Huh? Where did that come from? That's what I believe? LOL! I didn't know that I believed that...and I still don't know that I believe that. God's word is pretty clear on the matter of why Ishmael wasn't chosen. Just read that account, and you'll read what I believe about it.

 

5 hours ago, Brother D said:

6) Each point above is sufficient alone to soundly refute the central Dispensationalist doctrine that Jews are God's chosen people.  

 

No they aren't. I still believe they are God's chosen people after reading your points.

 

FAITH is the prerequisite, faith alone.  Everyone of faith is counted as a child of Abraham.

 

Maybe read Deuteronomy 10 and get back with me? 

 

I'm am certain you are grossly misinterpreting any verse that says Jews will again be God's people.  Here's a hint, if it's an OT verse, it's probably about the restoration of Judah before Christ, or about the establishment of the NT church by Christ.   

No. Sorry. 

 

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5 hours ago, Brother D said:

Your post is a desperate ploy to gain sympathy from your peers because you've been severely losing the debate.

I already defined "dispensationalism" earlier in this thread (parallel dispensations), and distinguished it from traditional Baptist dispensationalism of serial dispensations.  The things I'm addressing are beliefs held by people who identify as dispensationalists and hold the doctrine of parallel dispensations (a theology popularized by Pentecostals in recent decades).  So, my definition is fair, in spite of your objection.  Any competent person will define terms, if such an act is called for.  It's not at all a hidden definition, as you falsely claim.

It's very telling that you declare that what I'm talking about is not dispensationalism, yet you don't identify what I am talking about, if not dispenstionalism.   I'll gladly use whatever label you like, because the term itself isn't relevant.  How about "door knobs"?  It's not the details that matter, not the label.  I oppose your Door Knobism.  

In fact, it is your definition that fails.  You believe and defend parallel dispensations while defining dispensationalism as "God has divided time" into serial dispensations.  What's up with that?

I have been open and honest about my own theology, contrary to your false witness.  I've already clearly said, several times, that I believe the church is Israel, a trivial thing to defend with the Bible.  And, that the only people belonging to God in the old Testament was by faith.  I'll gladly answer any question about my  beliefs.  I have nothing to hide.   And, I have no need to act desperate.

 

 

 

Oh I don't have to seek sympathy from my peers - the overwhelming majority here are on my side - not because they like me - many of them don't- they put up with me - but because what I am saying is true.

You posted initially asking about dispensationalism with no definition, meaning people had to take the traditional definition, which you have twice now stated you know is the traditional definition.

ONLY WHEN CHALLENGED did you present your definition.

This event in itself is deceitful and an obvious attempt to cause strife.

You lied and misrepresented the beliefs of Spurgeon. I found a quote from Spurgeon that showed your referring him was entirely incorrect and instead of apologising you redefined what he meant. Just so you did not have to admit you lied about beliefs of 100 years ago.

You have in fact been anything but open and honest about your theology - you have lied constantly, misrepresented people, history, and the Bible, and twisted what people have said for your own purposes.

For instance, your have now said that at least myself and NoNics believe that the Arabs are God's chosen people. Neither of us believe that and neither of us have said that. You misrepresent us to confuse the discussion.

 

You sir, are a liar and a deciever and your purpose here is confuse, to cause trouble, and to make strife.

You have only posted in controversial threads and only posted contrary views, whilst falsely stating that you hold Baptist views. You have displayed on several occasions that you don't even know what baptists believe.

And you have steadfastly refused to answer anything about your salvation testimony.

I will give you a hint: no one has ever "always been a baptist".

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11 hours ago, DaveW said:

Oh I don't have to seek sympathy from my peers - the overwhelming majority here are on my side - not because they like me - many of them don't- they put up with me - but because what I am saying is true.

You posted initially asking about dispensationalism with no definition, meaning people had to take the traditional definition, which you have twice now stated you know is the traditional definition.

ONLY WHEN CHALLENGED did you present your definition.

This event in itself is deceitful and an obvious attempt to cause strife.

You lied and misrepresented the beliefs of Spurgeon. I found a quote from Spurgeon that showed your referring him was entirely incorrect and instead of apologising you redefined what he meant. Just so you did not have to admit you lied about beliefs of 100 years ago.

You have in fact been anything but open and honest about your theology - you have lied constantly, misrepresented people, history, and the Bible, and twisted what people have said for your own purposes.

For instance, your have now said that at least myself and NoNics believe that the Arabs are God's chosen people. Neither of us believe that and neither of us have said that. You misrepresent us to confuse the discussion.

 

You sir, are a liar and a deciever and your purpose here is confuse, to cause trouble, and to make strife.

You have only posted in controversial threads and only posted contrary views, whilst falsely stating that you hold Baptist views. You have displayed on several occasions that you don't even know what baptists believe.

And you have steadfastly refused to answer anything about your salvation testimony.

I will give you a hint: no one has ever "always been a baptist".

DaveW, you're a hateful troll and I will no longer be replying to you. 

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Just so long as everyone is aware of your nature and your false teaching.

But it is not hateful nor trolling to point out your constant falsehoods and misrepresentation of people, history, Bible, and facts, which is what I have done.

I don't mind if you don't reply - but I will not let falsehoods such as yours pass by - I will point them out wherever I see them.

 

To make it plain - when you lie, when you falsely represent someone's words, when you deliberately misuse the Bible, or when you present false histories, I will be there to point them out.

If you do none of these things, then I will have nothing to point out will I?

 

Have a nice day!

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

[1) You haven't explained why God told carnal Israel they aren't his people, if they are his people.]

 

Sir, did you even read my very first post in this thread? 

I did read your first post, you didn't explain why God told Israel they aren't his people, if they are his people.  You said, "The kingdom was divided at the time; in which, God said they weren't his people..."  You didn't offer any explanation for why God would say Israel are not his people, if they are his people.   I already know the circumstances of God's statement that Israel is not his people.  I know it was a divided kingdom.  I also know that "not my people" means "not my people."  

Sir, did you even read my response to you which (in turn) caused you to respond with this above; in which, I'm once again responding? Why respond if you're not actually going to read what is written and respond accordingly?

I answered your questions, but you are not answering my questions. 

I hate to say this, but you might want to check your reference(s) regarding what you claim that Revelation says about the Jews as the Synagogue of Satan...

You keep typing words, but you're not saying anything.  What about the Revelation reference about Jews as the Synagogue of Satan do you think I should check.  You should have said, "Those weren't Jews, they just claimed they were Jews" in which case I would point out that I put "Jews" in quotes in the first place.  I'd remind you that's the only use of the word "Jews" in Revelation.  And, then I'd make my case that anyone who calls themselves a Jew but is not a Christian is not a true Jew.  

Huh? Where did that come from? That's what I believe? LOL! I didn't know that I believed that...and I still don't know that I believe that. God's word is pretty clear on the matter of why Ishmael wasn't chosen. Just read that account, and you'll read what I believe about it.

LOL, indeed, you mockingly say you didn't know you believed something I said you believed then you immediately assert what I just said you believed.  But, this isn't about you, it's about Dispensational doctrine.  The simple logic that you refuse to process is Ishmael/Arabs are not God's chosen people, therefor being Abraham's seed doesn't make someone God's chosen people.   How does the reason Ishmael wasn't chosen make any difference to the simple logic I've shown you?   

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Brother D said:

The simple logic that you refuse to process is Ishmael/Arabs are not God's chosen people, therefor being Abraham's seed doesn't make someone God's chosen people.

Have you even read the Bible?

Because it is VERY CLEAR in the Bible that YOUR LOGIC - or is that deliberate lies about the issue - is addressed and refuted.

Oh I don't know, try Exodus, Deuteronomy, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts. These all have a phrase that Identifies "Israel" aside from all other sidelines lineages. Not to mention passages that describe the matter in Genesis and in Hebrews. Might even want to have an unbiased read of Romans to find out what it ACTUALLY says about Jews, the Nation, and people of faith.

I won't give you particular verses - it will do you good to actually read the Bible and find the phrasing. There should be more than enough clues in there for you to do a study that bears fruit.

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1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I did read your first post, you didn't explain why God told Israel they aren't his people, if they are his people.  You said, "The kingdom was divided at the time; in which, God said they weren't his people..."  You didn't offer any explanation for why God would say Israel are not his people, if they are his people.   I already know the circumstances of God's statement that Israel is not his people.  I know it was a divided kingdom.  I also know that "not my people" means "not my people."  

 

I did explain it; rather, I gave you the "tools" to read it for yourself. 

 

I answered your questions, but you are not answering my questions. 

 

I've answered what I believe needed to be answered. I don't debate...I'm not going to spend time going back and forth over and over. We both know neither of us will convince the other. That's why I point to scripture...in hope that you'll read what's referenced.

 

You keep typing words, but you're not saying anything.  What about the Revelation reference about Jews as the Synagogue of Satan do you think I should check.  You should have said, "Those weren't Jews, they just claimed they were Jews" in which case I would point out that I put "Jews" in quotes in the first place.  I'd remind you that's the only use of the word "Jews" in Revelation.  And, then I'd make my case that anyone who calls themselves a Jew but is not a Christian is not a true Jew.  

 

Interesting. You said Revelation refers to Jews as the Synagogue of Satan (when it actually doesn't). You even admit that it doesn't, but you still believe that it does? 

 

LOL, indeed, you mockingly say you didn't know you believed something I said you believed then you immediately assert what I just said you believed. 

 

Huh? See...this proves you're not really reading what I post. I didn't say that I believe what you said I believe. Also sir, I wasn't mocking you. I inserted the LOL, because I truly found it humorous...especially since I don't believe what you claim I believe...

 

But, this isn't about you, it's about Dispensational doctrine.  The simple logic that you refuse to process is Ishmael/Arabs are not God's chosen people, therefor being Abraham's seed doesn't make someone God's chosen people.   How does the reason Ishmael wasn't chosen make any difference to the simple logic I've shown you?   

Because your simple logic is destroyed by the plain wording of scripture.

I also notice that you neglected to say anything about my reference to Deuteronomy 10. That's okay.

 

 

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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49 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I did explain it; rather, I gave you the "tools" to read it for yourself. 

You didn't explain why God said Israel is not his people, if they are his people. You didn't give me tools to read it myself.  You gave my questions to avoid giving me an answer. The Bible says be ready to give an answer. The explanation, which is true, but you reject, is that being the natural seed of Abraham doesn't make someone's God's chosen people.

Every Christian should know that no one belongs to God apart from faith.  And, so, Israel, without faith, is not God's people.  And, everyone of faith is God's people and counts as the seed of Abraham.

Quote

 

Because your simple logic is destroyed by the plain wording of scripture.

I also notice that you neglected to say anything about my reference to Deuteronomy 10. That's okay.

 

The only difference between spamming verses that don't support you verses vaguely pointing to a chapter is at least you save some some bandwidth in your pretense of having a case.  

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Every Christian should know that no one belongs to God apart from faith.  And, so, Israel, without faith, is not God's people.  And, everyone of faith is God's people and counts as the seed of Abraham.

Quote

 

Because your simple logic is destroyed by the plain wording of scripture.

I also notice that you neglected to say anything about my reference to Deuteronomy 10. That's okay.

 

The only difference between spamming verses that don't support you verses vaguely pointing to a chapter is at least you save some some bandwidth in your pretense of having a case.  

 

Hardly surprising that he hasn't read the chapter you suggested - why would he? He has already said that he has no time for people who quote lots of the Bible (in another thread).

He plainly has not bothered to look at any of the Bible books that I suggested, and it is quite plain that he has not read Hebrews or Romans.

Wouldn't want to do that - he might find out the truth about the nation of Israel.

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15 minutes ago, Brother D said:

You didn't explain why God said Israel is not his people, if they are his people. You didn't give me tools to read it myself.  You gave my questions to avoid giving me an answer. The Bible says be ready to give an answer. The explanation, which is true, but you reject, is that being the natural seed of Abraham doesn't make someone's God's chosen people.

Every Christian should know that no one belongs to God apart from faith.  And, so, Israel, without faith, is not God's people.  And, everyone of faith is God's people and counts as the seed of Abraham.

The only difference between spamming verses that don't support you verses vaguely pointing to a chapter is at least you save some some bandwidth in your pretense of having a case.  

 

 

Okay...my "questions" WERE answers to you. It just required for you to read God's word for yourself in order to get "the answers".

I did explain (in my first post) what you say I didn't explain. I gave why God said they weren't his people, and I showed that God still called them his people. I just didn't use my own words. I pointed you to scripture.

I never said that Christians aren't God's people apart from faith.

I point to chapters and/or verses in your case, because I hoped you would read them to find the answers...but it appears you only want my opinion. Sorry. If you want my opinion, read the references that I gave.

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4 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Okay...my "questions" WERE answers to you. It just required for you to read God's word for yourself in order to get "the answers".

Your questions are not an explanation of why God told Israel they are not his people.  Your questions don't lead to the answer you want.  And, I answered each of your questions.   The explanation of why God told Israel they are not his people is that they were not his people (and they weren't his people because they didn't have faith in God).  How many times are we going to go around with this?  

I never said that Christians aren't God's people apart from faith.

I said you, or rather Dispensationalists, say Jews are God's people apart from faith.  That is a contradiction of what the Bible teaches, cover to cover.

I point to chapters and/or verses in your case, because I hoped you would read them to find the answers

You did point to Hos 11:7, "And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him."  At best, you are arguing that there's a contradiction and using a vague verse to make you case, because God still tells Israel they are not his people.  I can't reason with you because you refuse to look at what the Bible says.  You just point to it from a distance and pretend your position has no problems.  The KJV says, "bent on backsliding".  Do you know the definition of "bent"?  How about "backsliding"?  That verse doesn't say they have in fact backslidden, and it certainly doesn't say they've lost faith in God.  So, there's no contradiction.  If they had lost faith in God, God would say they're not his people.  That verse itself tells us that there are people calling out to God.  If hey weren't calling out to God, they would not be God's people.  The faithless Jews are not God's people.  The faithful Christian, even those tending to backslide, are God's people.

 

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 Ex 3:7  And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 
 Ex 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
 Ex 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness. 

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You do actually realise that Hosea was commanded to make his life an illustration right?

And that although his wife was determined to go a whoring, he was to go and bring her back time after time after time. He WAS NOT TO FORSAKE HER.

So to try to use any part of Hosea to prove that God has forsaken what we today refer to as Israel is simply not in keeping with the ENTIRE BOOK. But you will try anyway, because you don't actually read the Bible apparently. You certainly don't believe it means what it says.

And let's look at the ACTUAL reference of NoNics to Hos 11:7

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

Why did God call them his people in chapter 11 verse 7...when he had said they weren't his people in chapter 1?

NoNics said PRECISELY why he pointed you to this verse - because in it God calls them "My People" - against your constant claims - which I notice Jim has also pointed out that you are WRONG again. 

 

What did you do with NoNics' reference to that verse?

49 minutes ago, Brother D said:

You did point to Hos 11:7, "And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him."  At best, you are arguing that there's a contradiction and using a vague verse to make you case, because God still tells Israel they are not his people.  I can't reason with you because you refuse to look at what the Bible says.  You just point to it from a distance and pretend your position has no problems.  The KJV says, "bent on backsliding".  Do you know the definition of "bent"?  How about "backsliding"?  That verse doesn't say they have in fact backslidden, and it certainly doesn't say they've lost faith in God.  So, there's no contradiction.  If they had lost faith in God, God would say they're not his people.  That verse itself tells us that there are people calling out to God.  If hey weren't calling out to God, they would not be God's people.  The faithless Jews are not God's people.  The faithful Christian, even those tending to backslide, are God's people.

No surprise here, but you once again MISREPRESENT a member here for the purpose trying to make him seem foolish.

You only succeed in making yourself look like a deliberate deceiver.

 

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