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Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?


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1 minute ago, SureWord said:

No doubt babies go to heaven. Whether they are part of the church I am not sure. They may be part of some other redeemed body in heaven. Maybe part of the "general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23)

I think that we all will be adults in heaven, especially once received glorified bodies!

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The problem with aligning to those terms is how they are defined by those groups. They don't mean what you mean when you say "Totally Depraved", or "perserverance" as a couple of examples.

I find it alarming that too many people think that there are only two choices here. Neither Calvinism or Arminianism lines up with Scripture.

I would repeat my previous answer. I am a Biblicist. Neither John Calvin, nor Jacob Arminius, were correct in there writings.  And, neither one is a standard for doctrine. If the person is seekin

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On 6/19/2020 at 6:00 AM, DaChaser said:

The answer varies depending upon the Calvinist, as some would say only infants of saved parents, others would say only those who are the elect, I would say that God has chosen to elect in Chruist those who cannot do anything, such as babies and mentally handicapped persons!

You can say that as you like, but that is certainly adding to what scripture says. It says just what it says, we need not add man made philosophy to it. They are not elect in Christ, they are in innocence, where there is no law, and sin is not accounted.

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On 6/21/2020 at 8:25 PM, Ukulelemike said:

You can say that as you like, but that is certainly adding to what scripture says. It says just what it says, we need not add man made philosophy to it. They are not elect in Christ, they are in innocence, where there is no law, and sin is not accounted.

All have fallen in Adam, as even babies are sinners by nature!

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Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Indeed, I must agree that "ALL men" are under judgment to condemnation (yea, condemned already), not due to their own sin, but due to Adam's sin.  However, the very same statement of God's Holy Word ALSO declares that "the free gift" of salvation has come upon (is available to) "ALL men" as well.  Now, if contextually the "all men" phrase in the first half of the verse refers to every single human individual who enters the world, then contextually the "all men" phrase in the second half of the verse would refer to the same - to EVERY SINGLE human individual who enters the world.

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2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

All have fallen in Adam, as even babies are sinners by nature!

But where there is no law, or understanding of sin and punishment, there is no imputing of sin. All are fallen, but until sin is willingly committed, it is not imputed. That is exactly what Paul was saying in Rom 7.

 

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5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

But where there is no law, or understanding of sin and punishment, there is no imputing of sin. All are fallen, but until sin is willingly committed, it is not imputed. That is exactly what Paul was saying in Rom 7.

 

All have died in Adam, as all born save Jesus tatsed sin nature and the effects of the fall!

4 hours ago, Scott Lyons said:

@DaChaser take your heresy of Calvinism elsewhere!

Original Sin is a biblical doctrine!

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5 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Sure is. But Calvinism sure isn't.

In your opinion! There were many so called particular Baptists who held and still hold to Calvinism.

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4 hours ago, DaChaser said:

In your opinion! There were many so called particular Baptists who held and still hold to Calvinism.

Doesn't make it right! The Calvinist's authority is NOT Scripture but IS Calvinism! Calvinists have outsourced their sense-making to "giants of the faith" like Luther, Edwards, Knox, Gill, and even Calvin himself instead of Scripture! Calvinists don't think for themselves and say "well John Knox says, or Calvin Says, or Jonathan Edwards says" instead of saying exactly what Scripture says! I don't care about what those men said. They were all heretics!

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15 hours ago, Scott Lyons said:

Doesn't make it right! The Calvinist's authority is NOT Scripture but IS Calvinism! Calvinists have outsourced their sense-making to "giants of the faith" like Luther, Edwards, Knox, Gill, and even Calvin himself instead of Scripture! Calvinists don't think for themselves and say "well John Knox says, or Calvin Says, or Jonathan Edwards says" instead of saying exactly what Scripture says! I don't care about what those men said. They were all heretics!

I think that you have a right to feel that way, but very much doubt that men such as a Bunyan, Calvin, Spurgeon, Packer, Stott et all were all heretics!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

I think that you have a right to feel that way, but very much doubt that men such as a Bunyan, Calvin, Spurgeon, Packer, Stott et all were all heretics!

Again outsourcing your sense-making to men instead of Scripture! I don't care what those men said. What does the plain reading of Scripture say? And yes those men were heretics! If they preached and taught Calvinism, which they did, they are heretics because Calvinism is a false gospel of works. None of the five points of the TULIP are supported by Scripture!

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1 hour ago, Scott Lyons said:

Again outsourcing your sense-making to men instead of Scripture! I don't care what those men said. What does the plain reading of Scripture say? And yes those men were heretics! If they preached and taught Calvinism, which they did, they are heretics because Calvinism is a false gospel of works. None of the five points of the TULIP are supported by Scripture!

Calvinists like myself are NOT holding to a salvation by works, as its Grace alone thru faith alone!

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47 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Calvinists like myself are NOT holding to a salvation by works, as its Grace alone thru faith alone!

Oh yeah you are! Do you understand what the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is? They will tell you it is eternal security but it is not. One must persevere in GOOD WORKS to prove that they are one of the elect. If a person backslides or falls away it proves they were never saved to begin with according to Calvinism. So you my friend if you do believe you are one of the "elect", you cannot know if you are saved until after you die! How many good works must a person do to prove they are one of the elect? This is where Calvinists become fruit inspectors and judge other people on whether they are truly saved and one of the elect or not. By the way, election and being elect has nothing to do with salvation. Election is to service! I suggest you study your theology a bit more.

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1 hour ago, Scott Lyons said:

Oh yeah you are! Do you understand what the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is? They will tell you it is eternal security but it is not. One must persevere in GOOD WORKS to prove that they are one of the elect. If a person backslides or falls away it proves they were never saved to begin with according to Calvinism. So you my friend if you do believe you are one of the "elect", you cannot know if you are saved until after you die! How many good works must a person do to prove they are one of the elect? This is where Calvinists become fruit inspectors and judge other people on whether they are truly saved and one of the elect or not. By the way, election and being elect has nothing to do with salvation. Election is to service! I suggest you study your theology a bit more.

I am a Calvinist Baptist, so tend to see this more as Eternal security of the saved, and that those who are really saved by grace will evidence to some degree fruit to reflect that, and when sinning, will in some fashion repent and return to the lord. Do agree with you that at times we seem to want to be fruit inspectors, and everyone grows at different rates, not one salvation mold fits all!

Er just do not wish people to be trusting a one time alter call as proof right with God!

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19 hours ago, Gismys said:
God Would Have ALL Men to be Saved!!
 
2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
 
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. == A stake in the false teaching Calvinism's heart!
 

Here is some more:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. " (Matt 23:37)
Here we see God's will, that He could gather Jerusalem together to Himself, yet their will, to reject Him, prevailed, and therefore, their house was left to them desolate. Man's will prevailed over God's will.

 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9)

   
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On 6/19/2020 at 10:24 AM, DaChaser said:

I think that we all will be adults in heaven, especially once received glorified bodies!

 

So (to show/ as if/  different to previous post by someone about "all" meaning "all" (In English) in Scripture) .... (it doesn't mean the same as some say).....

Just as in the quoted post - "we all will be adults in heaven"   refers ONLY to those who are redeemed,  AND likewise who will be adults in the life to come,   clearly not all who read this forum,  and not all in any particular church or city or state or country or continent on this earth.

From the little I saw over the years from Hebrew and Aramaic especially,   and perhaps also Greek,   "all" in English is not conveying the same thing that many people take for granted,  'assuming' that since "all" was used in the English,  they have the liberty to say it means 'everybody' ,   a clear mis-direction though not necessarily on purpose nor wittingly.

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On 6/19/2020 at 10:22 AM, SureWord said:

No doubt babies go to heaven. Whether they are part of the church I am not sure. They may be part of some other redeemed body in heaven. Maybe part of the "general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23)

"No doubt" ?   Then why has this same point been argued for centuries without clear resolution ?  i.e. there has been no clear definitive specific or general provable argument or statement of Scripture of such a statement.

For comparison,   why are so many babies/children declared unclean by Jesus. ? (all those who are without at least one believing parent.)

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3 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

"No doubt" ?   Then why has this same point been argued for centuries without clear resolution ?  i.e. there has been no clear definitive specific or general provable argument or statement of Scripture of such a statement.

For comparison,   why are so many babies/children declared unclean by Jesus. ? (all those who are without at least one believing parent.)

"No doubt" because sin is not imputed where there's no knowledge of the law. Babies have no knowledge of the law.

I think the only ones debating about this for centuries are wacky 5-point Calvinists.

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3 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

 

So (to show/ as if/  different to previous post by someone about "all" meaning "all" (In English) in Scripture) .... (it doesn't mean the same as some say).....

Just as in the quoted post - "we all will be adults in heaven"   refers ONLY to those who are redeemed,  AND likewise who will be adults in the life to come,   clearly not all who read this forum,  and not all in any particular church or city or state or country or continent on this earth.

context, context, context... I am no grammarian, but context rules. This is especially important when there is a "qualifier" pertaining to the word "all", or any other word for that matter.

Using common sense as well as the English language we understand, would you say that the word "all" in the following verse only applies to a select few or a class, or does it mean "all", as is stated?

 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9)

As far as your straw man argument concerning someone that said "we all will be adults in heaven". Common sense must prevail. Do you really believe that Christians would think that this meant "all" as in the previous verse, or "all" who will go to heaven"? In addition meaning the unsaved also?

In this case common sense dictates that the writer or speaker is referring to those that are saved. There can be no other understanding because Christians know that the unredeemed do not go to heaven.

It is many times good to remember that the Bible was written so that people can understand it. And the translators did not make any mistakes, as your text implies in places when speaking of the Hebrew, Aramaic and greek.

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