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Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?


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18 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood..." (Rev 16:1-4)

So if the time of wrath is at the final judgment for the unsaved, what, pray tell, is happening here? No the judgment is just that: judgment. Wrath of God is righteous anger of our Almighty God, while the judgment is just that: It is pure justice and law being meted out. Those who go through His wrath will also go through His judgment.

So what is the judgment on the wicked if not the wrath of God?

Edited by Invicta
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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

So what is the judgment on the wicked if not the wrath of God?

It is judgment. Judgment is not vengeance; wrath is vengeance, judgment is justice. Judgment can mete out righteous wrath, but what Revelation 16 describes is not the judgment, it is simple wrath and indignation against the wicked. Their righteous judgment will be given at the Great White Throne judgment.  They are two different events. Two events, both of which believers will miss out on.

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On 05/02/2017 at 5:40 PM, Invicta said:

The original rapture teaching by the Irvingites was  that there would be no preachers or teachers after the rapture, so no converts.  When I was in the Brethren we were taught that there would be no, or just a few converts. Now some say that there will be the greatest revival of all times.  I was  also taught that the church and the Holy Spirit would be removed, if that is true how can there be any converts seeing that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin.

 

Well to be quite honest, Ephraim the Syrian taught a pretribulation rapture around 370 AD. Though I don't give weight to any doctrines based on whether or not we have written records of Church History where individuals taught  a particular doctrine. the Bible is my authority.

Also, you are painting a strawman here. It's not that the Holy Spirit is completely removed from the earth, but that his dispensation of indwelling believers is ended, and things go back much like how things were in the Old Testament where the Holy Spirit will come upon men, like he did with David, Saul, and others. It's not the Holy Spirit is completely removed, but all of the believers who are indwelt by him are removed, therefore his influence on the earth is removed so that the man of sin, the antichrist, shall be revealed. That is not to say that God will not still pour out his spirit upon certain individuals again during the tribulation. 

"

The question has often been asked, Will anyone be saved after the rapture? The Scriptures clearly indicate that a great multitude of both Jews and Gentiles will trust in the Lord after the church is caught up to glory. Though the children of God living on earth at the time will be translated when Christ comes for His church, immediately a testimony will be raised up to the name of Christ through new converts among Jews and Gentiles. Though these are never described by the term “church,” they are constantly called saints, that is, those set apart as holy to God and saved through the sacrifice of Christ.

The presence of saved people in the world after the rapture has puzzled some because according to 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the one who now restrains sin, often identified as the Holy Spirit, is pictured as being removed from the world. The question then is how can people be saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world? The answer, of course, is that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world in the same sense in which He came on the day of Pentecost. People were saved before the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God came to indwell the church, and it should be clear from other Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is always omnipresent. He has always been in the world and always will be, in keeping with the divine attribute of omnipresence. Though the special ministries which are characteristic of the present dispensation may cease, there will be the continued ministry of the Spirit in a similar way to that which existed before Pentecost.

There is a parallel in the fact of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Throughout the Old Testament, Christ was present in the world, but it was not His particular field of operation though He ministered as the Angel of Jehovah. In due time, according to the plan of God, Christ was born in Bethlehem and ministered as God’s unique revelation of Himself to mankind. Then He ascended into heaven, yet at the same time He told His disciples, “Lo, I am with you alway” (Matt. 28:20). In other words while His special earthly work was completed with His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, He nevertheless continued to work in the world in His omnipresence as God.

Likewise the Holy Spirit is resident in the world now just as Christ was resident in the world between His birth and ascension. When the present age ends and the Holy Spirit is caught up with the church, the situation will return to that which was true before the day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit will continue to be working in the world, but in some particulars in a different way. There is good reason to believe, however, that the Holy Spirit will lead people to Christ, and many will be saved during the tribulation time. A description of this is given in the seventh chapter of the book of Revelation, which is so plain that no one should question whether people will be saved after the rapture."

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-saints-great-tribulation

 

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Hey Jordan - thanks for pointing out that pre-trib rapture was taught well before invicta's false history.

He has been shown this before but that doesn't stop him from lying about it.......

 

And of course, as you point out, historical teaching is simply not as important as Bible teaching, another thing which Invicta likes to ignore.

Edited by DaveW
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3 minutes ago, Invicta said:

When people quote these lesser early writers, they don't read all they say as what they write often conflicts with some of their other statements.   The earliest commentary on Revelation is by Victorianus, which is often quoted by A-Mils as A-Mil, but it also has some sections which are also Millenialist.   

I was also taught pre trib but abanodoned it after studying the bible more carefully.  

We've heard it and that was shown to be false by Covenanter some time ago.

And you continue to lie - all covenanter proved was that he was a false teacher, and he was banned for it.

His teaching was shown to be blatantly false and without foundation.

Just as your false history is constantly shown to be false and yet you still lie about it.

If it can be shown that it was even discussed - as Jordan did - then your false claim of whoever and whatever is shown to be false. It matters not if it was accepted, mainstream, or sideline - IF IT WAS DISCUSSED BEFORE YOUR FALSE CLAIM then your claim is false.

And you have been shown to be wrong time and time again and yet still make your false claims.

That makes you a deliberate liar, a deceiver, a false teacher with intent.

Just want to AGAIN point it out as I will endeavour to do whenever you roll out your false histories.

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On another site it was once said that Clement, in his epistle to the Corinthians, referred to a future temple, as he wrote that Christ will come to His temple.   But the poster did not regard the scripture which says "You are the temple of God." 1 Cor 3:16-17 2 Cor 6:16 Eph.2:21

41 minutes ago, DaveW said:

And you continue to lie - all covenanter proved was that he was a false teacher, and he was banned for it.

His teaching was shown to be blatantly false and without foundation.

Just as your false history is constantly shown to be false and yet you still lie about it.

If it can be shown that it was even discussed - as Jordan did - then your false claim of whoever and whatever is shown to be false. It matters not if it was accepted, mainstream, or sideline - IF IT WAS DISCUSSED BEFORE YOUR FALSE CLAIM then your claim is false.

And you have been shown to be wrong time and time again and yet still make your false claims.

That makes you a deliberate liar, a deceiver, a false teacher with intent.

Just want to AGAIN point it out as I will endeavour to do whenever you roll out your false histories.

Remember when you point a finger at anyone you have three pointing at you.+

Edited by Invicta
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21 minutes ago, Invicta said:

On another site it was once said that Clement, in his epistle to the Corinthians, referred to a future temple, as he wrote that Christ will come to His temple.   But the poster did not regard the scripture which says "You are the temple of God." 1 Cor 3:16-17 2 Cor 6:16 Eph.2:21

Remember when you point a finger at anyone you have three pointing at you.+

Oh very cute and somewhat childish accusation.

You cannot avoid the fact that you have been shown the lies of your so called history on many, many occasions and the fact that you still repeat them shows thst you are lying with full knowledge. 

This shows that you are deliberately deceitful, not mistaken.

Deliberately.

Because, after being shown that your statements are false, you continue to make them.

You are a false teacher more akin to the wolves spoken of in Matt 7:15 than any sort of misled person.

 

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5 hours ago, DaveW said:

Oh very cute and somewhat childish accusation.

You cannot avoid the fact that you have been shown the lies of your so called history on many, many occasions and the fact that you still repeat them shows thst you are lying with full knowledge. 

This shows that you are deliberately deceitful, not mistaken.

Deliberately.

Because, after being shown that your statements are false, you continue to make them.

You are a false teacher more akin to the wolves spoken of in Matt 7:15 than any sort of misled person.

 

No I have not and I will not reply to your childish accusations.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 4:39 PM, Eric Stahl said:

Hi 1Timothy115. Maybe I was not clear. The only saved people to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement are those that lived in the kingdom age or died sinners before the Kingdom age. I do think we will be witnesses.

 

Bro. Eric, I don't believe any saved people will appear at the Great White Throne Judgement...only the lost. We can find out when we're watching it.

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6 hours ago, Invicta said:

No I have not and I will not reply to your childish accusations.

Well, the only one making childish accusations is you.

My accusations are founded in facts.

Big difference.

When you are shown that you are wrong in your representations, and yet you continue to spout that same information, you are proven to be a liar.

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17 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Well, the only one making childish accusations is you.

My accusations are founded in facts.

Big difference.

When you are shown that you are wrong in your representations, and yet you continue to spout that same information, you are proven to be a liar.

You have never proved anything,

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Matt. 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
 

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16 hours ago, Invicta said:

When people quote these lesser early writers, they don't read all they say as what they write often conflicts with some of their other statements.   The earliest commentary on Revelation is by Victorianus, which is often quoted by A-Mils as A-Mil, but it also has some sections which are also Millenialist.   

I was also taught pre trib but abanodoned it after studying the bible more carefully.  

We've heard it and that was shown to be false by Covenanter some time ago.

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (Ephraem the Syrian, On the Last Times).

Observe that Ephraem taught that the saints will be taken to the Lord so they will not see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world, which is exactly what 1 Thessalonians 5:3-9 says.

Ephraem taught a literal antichrist who will sit in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, a literal 3.5 year Tribulation, a literal Two Witnesses or prophets who will preach in Jerusalem, a literal battle of Gog and Magog.

“And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints. ... Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever” (Ephraem the Syrian,
On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, A.D. 373).

Ephraem believed in the imminency of the return of Christ and urged his fellow Christians to live godly lives in expectation of His return.

Invicta please take back your statement from earlier that implies that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was invented by the Irvingites. Anyone who reads the above quotes from Ephraem the Syrian can clearly see that he did in fact teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Just because you claim that people are misunderstanding doesn't change the truth. If you don't want to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then that's your choice, but please stop spreading misinformation about the position.

The Following is also interesting:

MORGAN EDWARDS (1722-1795)


Morgan Edwards was one of the most prominent Baptist leaders of his day. He was the pastor of the Baptist church in Philadelphia and the founder of Brown University, the first Baptist college in America. A summary of life was featured in the Baptist Encyclopedia. He was one of the first Baptist historians of repute, his Materials Toward A History of the Baptists (1770) providing a foundation for all subsequent works.

Following is what Edwards believed about Bible prophecy:

“The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more; because
the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s ‘appearing in the air’ (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many ‘mansions in the father's house’ (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for ‘now the time is come that judgment must begin,’ and that will be ‘at the house of God’ (I Pet. iv. 17)” (Edwards, Two Academical Exercises on the Subjects Bearing the Following Titles; Millennium and Last-Novelties, 1744).

What has Edwards said? Note the following:

• He believes that at least 1,003.5 years will transpire between resurrections.

• He associates the first resurrection with the rapture in 1 Thess. 4:17, occurring at least 3.5 years before the start of the millennium (i.e., at least 3.5 years before the second coming of Christ at the start of the millennium.

• He associates the meeting of believers with Christ in the air and returning to the Father's house with John 14:2, as do modern pretribulationists.

• He sees believers disappearing during the time of the tribulation, which he goes on to talk about in the rest of the section from which the rapture statement is taken.

• He, like modern pretribulationists, links the time in heaven, during the tribulation, with the "bema" judgment of believers.

The only difference, at least as far as the above statements go, between current pretribulationism and Edwards is the time interval of 3.5 years instead of 7. In fact, anti-pretribulationist John Bray wonders,

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/when_was_the_pre_tribulation_rapture_taught.html

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/morgan-edwards-another-pre-darby-rapturist

You can find more examples of believers who held to the rapture before the Irvingites or Darby here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/yet-another-pre-darby-rapture-statement

Invicta if you are going to insist that the quotes above are not evidence that Christians taught the Rapture before Darby or the Irvingites then the burden of proof is on you to refute the quotations, simply saying they don't mean what they appear to say is not really a valid response.

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Matt. 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
 

That would only apply if my statements were not true, but you havenbeen shiwn time and again to be wrong and yet you still make these statements.

This shows that you are willfully in error, a false teacher, a deliberate liar.

 

As Jordan has once again proven, by several quotes, which has been done on many prior occasions also.

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