Early church eternal security

[Roselove]

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'm not sure which verses imply that one can forfeit their salvation.

Roselove, I may be wrong...and if so, please forgive me. However, I believe that you are looking for either a feeling or some type of sign to confirm your salvation. If that's the case, then these types of things; such as, forfeiting salvation, losing salvation, etc. will continue to haunt and plague you. That's why I stress that believing God's word, trusting it, putting your faith in it, and resting on that is the only thing that will help you in the end. I can't stress it enough.

If you're looking for biblical proof that one can't lose their salvation...or forfeit their salvation, then here it is. Now, compare these with whatever the verses are that seem to imply one can lose their salvation (or forfeit it). For one, I believe the Lord settles the matter, nails it down, and closes the lid on it here...

John 6:29-58

²⁹ Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

³⁰ They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

³¹ Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

³² Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

³³ For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

³⁴ Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

³⁵ And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

³⁶ But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

³⁷ All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

³⁸ For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

³⁹ And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

⁴⁰ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁴¹ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

⁴² And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

⁴³ Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

⁴⁴ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁴⁵ It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

⁴⁶ Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

⁴⁷ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

⁴⁸ I am that bread of life.

⁴⁹ Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

⁵⁰ This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

⁵¹ I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

⁵² The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

⁵³ Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁵⁵ For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

⁵⁶ He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

⁵⁷ As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

⁵⁸ This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

What I see Jesus saying, is that God gives everyone to Him, He draws the whole world and will all hear the Gospel. Those that come He won't cast out. God doesn't want any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. So it's not God's will that Jesus would lose any of the world, but of course, many won't accept Him. 

The jews had to continue to eat the manna to survive physically, so wouldn't we have to continue to be lead by the Holy Spirit, continue to follow Jesus's direction? He uses the same verbiage from what I see, about the jews did eat the manna/those who eat Jesus's flesh and drink His blood. This is just what I see when reading it. 

[No Nicolaitans]

30 minutes ago, Roselove said:

What I see Jesus saying, is that God gives everyone to Him, He draws the whole world and will all hear the Gospel. Those that come He won't cast out. God doesn't want any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. So it's not God's will that Jesus would lose any of the world, but of course, many won't accept Him. 

The jews had to continue to eat the manna to survive physically, so wouldn't we have to continue to be lead by the Holy Spirit, continue to follow Jesus's direction? He uses the same verbiage from what I see, about the jews did eat the manna/those who eat Jesus's flesh and drink His blood. This is just what I see when reading it. 

him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I still don't know what the "forfeiting salvation" verses are that you're referring to?

1. Did God draw you to salvation? Did the Holy Spirit convict you? How does this work? All that I can say is that if a person realizes and understands that they are lost, and there is something inside of them which is convicting them that they need to be saved...then God has drawn and the Spirit has convicted. I see nothing in the Bible stating what the drawing consists of or what the convicting consists of. Each individual who is drawn and convicted can only answer that for themselves. Some may have a deep conviction producing tears; some won't. Some may have a deep drawing that feels crushing; some won't. That's why I sometimes shudder when people "share their testimony". Oftentimes, people will share a testimony of what they "experienced". One of my early problems was hearing a man testify that it felt like a lightning bolt when down his back when he got saved. Things like this cause others to wonder about their salvation, because they didn't "experience" the same thing or something similar. I'm just going to be blunt...it doesn't matter one iota what Brother Joe experienced, or what Sister Sue experienced. It doesn't matter one iota what Brother Joe felt, or what Sister Sue felt. THERE ARE NO EXPERIENCES OR FEELINGS ASSOCIATED WITH SALVATION IN GOD'S WORD. IT'S ALL ABOUT FAITH AND BELIEF.  GOD WANTS YOU TO TRUST HIM AND HIS WORD...NOT WHAT BROTHER JOE SAYS...NOT WHAT SISTER SUE SAYS...AND NOT WHAT NO NICOLAITANS SAYS. HE WANTS YOU TO TRUST, BELIEVE, AND HAVE FAITH IN...HIM AND HIS WORD.
2. Did you come to him? Did you believe in him (his death, burial, and resurrection)? If so, you were saved, and he will IN NO WISE cast you out. Christ is quite clear...if you eat (eateth) of this bread. There is no continuing action shown. In dealing with the Samaritan woman, she wanted the water that Christ offered so that she would never have to draw water again...he was that water. Christ used the example of manna, because that's what the people he was speaking to brought up. They brought it up, not Christ. Christ used their own example against them. Yes, the Israelites had to gather manna everyday, six days a week, for 40 years. For 40 years, manna fell from heaven. For 40 years, they had to gather it every day six days a week. Christ came once. ONCE. He died once. ONCE. He shed his blood once. ONCE. No going back daily, no going back year after year...he did it once. He offered himself ONCE for ALL.
3. Salvation produces a change in the one who is saved. Our "wants" change. Was there a change in you after accepting Jesus Christ as Savior? Did the things you used to do (sin) bother you if you did them after salvation? Did you have new desires...desires to do things that were right instead of wrong? If so, Christ will in no wise cast you out.
4. The Bible is clear; if someone "leaves the faith", they were never truly saved to begin with (1 John 2:19). It's not about forfeiting salvation...or losing salvation. It's about whether one was saved at all. If a person leaves the faith, it's because they weren't saved. Some people come to church for nefarious reasons...to get what they can from the church, to make connections, to be popular, to look good to others, to make someone else happy, etc... They might put on a good show for a while, they may fool the members, the preacher, and the community. Yet, after a while, they fade away and disappear. What happened was...they came to "the church"...they didn't come "to Christ". How do you know if you're saved?

Were you drawn to salvation? Did "something" cause you to realize that you needed God...that you needed Christ?

Were you convicted of your sinful state? Did "something" cause you to realize that you were a sinner and needed to be saved?

Did you believe in your heart that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose from the grave the third day? Did you believe that he did that for you?

If you did that, you've eaten his flesh, drank his blood, and he will in no wise cast you out.

Roselove, you, your flesh, and the Devil have you concentrating on everything that can cause you to have doubts instead of concentrating on Christ's incredible, amazing, and inexplainable sacrifice for you. Stop it...just stop it. Stop concentrating on what you think is wrong, and concentrate on what is right. Stop looking for loopholes, and start looking at Christ. You're in a battle, and I feel for you...I know what it's like. However, as I've said before, and I say it again...you have got to trust him and his word...and nothing else. NOTHING ELSE ROSELOVE...

[Roselove]

37 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I still don't know what the "forfeiting salvation" verses are that you're referring to?

1. Did God draw you to salvation? Did the Holy Spirit convict you? How does this work? All that I can say is that if a person realizes and understands that they are lost, and there is something inside of them which is convicting them that they need to be saved...then God has drawn and the Spirit has convicted. I see nothing in the Bible stating what the drawing consists of or what the convicting consists of. Each individual who is drawn and convicted can only answer that for themselves. Some may have a deep conviction producing tears; some won't. Some may have a deep drawing that feels crushing; some won't. That's why I sometimes shudder when people "share their testimony". Oftentimes, people will share a testimony of what they "experienced". One of my early problems was hearing a man testify that it felt like a lightning bolt when down his back when he got saved. Things like this cause others to wonder about their salvation, because they didn't "experience" the same thing or something similar. I'm just going to be blunt...it doesn't matter one iota what Brother Joe experienced, or what Sister Sue experienced. It doesn't matter one iota what Brother Joe felt, or what Sister Sue felt. THERE ARE NO EXPERIENCES OR FEELINGS ASSOCIATED WITH SALVATION IN GOD'S WORD. IT'S ALL ABOUT FAITH AND BELIEF.  GOD WANTS YOU TO TRUST HIM AND HIS WORD...NOT WHAT BROTHER JOE SAYS...NOT WHAT SISTER SUE SAYS...AND NOT WHAT NO NICOLAITANS SAYS. HE WANTS YOU TO TRUST, BELIEVE, AND HAVE FAITH IN...HIM AND HIS WORD.
2. Did you come to him? Did you believe in him (his death, burial, and resurrection)? If so, you were saved, and he will IN NO WISE cast you out. Christ is quite clear...if you eat (eateth) of this bread. There is no continuing action shown. In dealing with the Samaritan woman, she wanted the water that Christ offered so that she would never have to draw water again...he was that water. Christ used the example of manna, because that's what the people he was speaking to brought up. They brought it up, not Christ. Christ used their own example against them. Yes, the Israelites had to gather manna everyday, six days a week, for 40 years. For 40 years, manna fell from heaven. For 40 years, they had to gather it every day six days a week. Christ came once. ONCE. He died once. ONCE. He shed his blood once. ONCE. No going back daily, no going back year after year...he did it once. He offered himself ONCE for ALL.
3. Salvation produces a change in the one who is saved. Our "wants" change. Was there a change in you after accepting Jesus Christ as Savior? Did the things you used to do (sin) bother you if you did them after salvation? Did you have new desires...desires to do things that were right instead of wrong? If so, Christ will in no wise cast you out.
4. The Bible is clear; if someone "leaves the faith", they were never truly saved to begin with (1 John 2:19). It's not about forfeiting salvation...or losing salvation. It's about whether one was saved at all. If a person leaves the faith, it's because they weren't saved. Some people come to church for nefarious reasons...to get what they can from the church, to make connections, to be popular, to look good to others, to make someone else happy, etc... They might put on a good show for a while, they may fool the members, the preacher, and the community. Yet, after a while, they fade away and disappear. What happened was...they came to "the church"...they didn't come "to Christ". How do you know if you're saved?

Were you drawn to salvation? Did "something" cause you to realize that you needed God...that you needed Christ?

Were you convicted of your sinful state? Did "something" cause you to realize that you were a sinner and needed to be saved?

Did you believe in your heart that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose from the grave the third day? Did you believe that he did that for you?

If you did that, you've eaten his flesh, drank his blood, and he will in no wise cast you out.

Roselove, you, your flesh, and the Devil have you concentrating on everything that can cause you to have doubts instead of concentrating on Christ's incredible, amazing, and inexplainable sacrifice for you. Stop it...just stop it. Stop concentrating on what you think is wrong, and concentrate on what is right. Stop looking for loopholes, and start looking at Christ. You're in a battle, and I feel for you...I know what it's like. However, as I've said before, and I say it again...you have got to trust him and his word...and nothing else. NOTHING ELSE ROSELOVE...

You have given me some new insight on the verses, it makes sense. You are right, i need to stay in the Bible. When i get scared, i keep seeing what my fearful eyes want to see. It's so frustrating.. 

I've talked to my husband about maybe looking at all of the verses that confuse me, one by one, and just read through them and in the context, and get help from a trusted Christian, if we need to. 

I know that I am difficult, trust me, i HATE how difficult my mind is, it's difficult towards me!! I feel like a little puppy, trying to beg for help, but then on the other side, I feel like I have the combative skepticism, similar to an atheist (of course not towards the same things, but I feel like my mind always comes up with something to refute what I've been told). It is so very hard, I've been extremely anxious, since I was a toddler, i have a problem, if it wasn't one thing, it was another terrible, chronic fear. Example: getting cancer, getting contaminated by germs, losing a limb, getting fat, suddenly not being able to breath, whatever phobia you can think of, I've probably had it. Now of course, since I'm a true believer in Jesus and that the Bible is true and more important than anything, that's what my anxious mind clings to now, what it has decided to obsess, over. I take a bunch of medication, before i did that, I had even worse anxiety. I think i need the Bible (of course) and since I'm so sick mentally, i may need more help from fellow Christians, than most. I mean, it would be kind of like needing more help with any disability, I'd think? Physical or mental.

[No Nicolaitans]

45 minutes ago, Roselove said:

You have given me some new insight on the verses, it makes sense. You are right, i need to stay in the Bible. When i get scared, i keep seeing what my fearful eyes want to see. It's so frustrating.. 

I've talked to my husband about maybe looking at all of the verses that confuse me, one by one, and just read through them and in the context, and get help from a trusted Christian, if we need to. 

I know that I am difficult, trust me, i HATE how difficult my mind is, it's difficult towards me!! I feel like a little puppy, trying to beg for help, but then on the other side, I feel like I have the combative skepticism, similar to an atheist (of course not towards the same things, but I feel like my mind always comes up with something to refute what I've been told). It is so very hard, I've been extremely anxious, since I was a toddler, i have a problem, if it wasn't one thing, it was another terrible, chronic fear. Example: getting cancer, getting contaminated by germs, losing a limb, getting fat, suddenly not being able to breath, whatever phobia you can think of, I've probably had it. Now of course, since I'm a true believer in Jesus and that the Bible is true and more important than anything, that's what my anxious mind clings to now, what it has decided to obsess, over. I take a bunch of medication, before i did that, I had even worse anxiety. I think i need the Bible (of course) and since I'm so sick mentally, i may need more help from fellow Christians, than most. I mean, it would be kind of like needing more help with any disability, I'd think? Physical or mental.

I understand. I have a VERY strong family history of cancer on both my mother's and father's side of the family...it's always something in the back of my mind. I do what I can to improve my health naturally...but it's still there.

Our children suffer from life-threatening allergies and severe skin conditions. Neither of them were able to be "normal" kids...enjoying the things that most kids do. Just a few weeks ago, our 7-year old son went to the ER. He simply wanted to eat ice-cream at an ice-cream shop. My wife explained the situation to the worker in the ice-cream store and was assured that no "cross-contamination" had taken place. An hour later, they were at the ER because of nut contamination...with our son barely able to breath. We live day-to-day...trying to draw a fine line between allowing our children to be "normal" and denying them things that most people take for granted...just to keep them safe and alive. We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars through the years between ER visits, doctors, prescriptions, specialists, natural remedies, etc...you name it, we've probably tried it...just to give our children some semblance of a normal childhood. In the end, the best thing was Mommy and Daddy looking out for them...and having to deny them things that most people take for granted. And don't believe for a second that anything and everything a doctor tells you is 100% accurate.

My immediate family has dealt with the "germ thing". Many years ago, our daughter spent 10 days in the hospital due to MRSA. A year later, I spent 7 days in the hospital due to a flesh-eating bacteria...can't remember the name of it. My wife and son have also had MRSA. I'm a stickler for sanitizing and washing hands, using hand-sanitizers, etc. now. I'm almost scared to shake hands with people now because of it...but I don't let it control me beyond measure.

I KNOW what you're talking about. If anyone ever wanted to curl up into the fetal position, have a pity-party, and ask why...it's me...but I have a family to take care of. I have a son who needs a daddy and a daughter who needs advice. So...I press on...not knowing what tomorrow holds, but I know who I can lean on. At times, it's overwhelming, but I have someone whom looks over me, and he has promised me that he wouldn't put anything on me more than I can bear. It's been tough at time...VERY tough. But he has remained true and faithful.

Now...I've just shared something here that I'm not comfortable sharing...and I'm not sure how much of that I've ever shared before (if any of it). I'm thankful to the Lord that we haven't had to deal with the "germ thing" for several years now. Still...

Life is hard.

Life isn't fair.

But God is greater.

What I fear is that you are looking for a reason not to be saved (or for losing your salvation) instead of seeking comfort in being saved. I've been where you are. I've dealt with many of the same issues. The ONLY thing that helped me was God's word...believing it, trusting it, and having faith in it.

[Roselove]

42 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I understand. I have a VERY strong family history of cancer on both my mother's and father's side of the family...it's always something in the back of my mind. I do what I can to improve my health naturally...but it's still there.

Our children suffer from life-threatening allergies and severe skin conditions. Neither of them were able to be "normal" kids...enjoying the things that most kids do. Just a few weeks ago, our 7-year old son went to the ER. He simply wanted to eat ice-cream at an ice-cream shop. My wife explained the situation to the worker in the ice-cream store and was assured that no "cross-contamination" had taken place. An hour later, they were at the ER because of nut contamination...with our son barely able to breath. We live day-to-day...trying to draw a fine line between allowing our children to be "normal" and denying them things that most people take for granted...just to keep them safe and alive. We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars through the years between ER visits, doctors, prescriptions, specialists, natural remedies, etc...you name it, we've probably tried it...just to give our children some semblance of a normal childhood. In the end, the best thing was Mommy and Daddy looking out for them...and having to deny them things that most people take for granted. And don't believe for a second that anything and everything a doctor tells you is 100% accurate.

My immediate family has dealt with the "germ thing". Many years ago, our daughter spent 10 days in the hospital due to MRSA. A year later, I spent 7 days in the hospital due to a flesh-eating bacteria...can't remember the name of it. My wife and son have also had MRSA. I'm a stickler for sanitizing and washing hands, using hand-sanitizers, etc. now. I'm almost scared to shake hands with people now because of it...but I don't let it control me beyond measure.

I KNOW what you're talking about. If anyone ever wanted to curl up into the fetal position, have a pity-party, and ask why...it's me...but I have a family to take care of. I have a son who needs a daddy and a daughter who needs advice. So...I press on...not knowing what tomorrow holds, but I know who I can lean on. At times, it's overwhelming, but I have someone whom looks over me, and he has promised me that he wouldn't put anything on me more than I can bear. It's been tough at time...VERY tough. But he has remained true and faithful.

Now...I've just shared something here that I'm not comfortable sharing...and I'm not sure how much of that I've ever shared before (if any of it). I'm thankful to the Lord that we haven't had to deal with the "germ thing" for several years now. Still...

Life is hard.

Life isn't fair.

But God is greater.

What I fear is that you are looking for a reason not to be saved (or for losing your salvation) instead of seeking comfort in being saved. I've been where you are. I've dealt with many of the same issues. The ONLY thing that helped me was God's word...believing it, trusting it, and having faith in it.

My heart goes out to you and your family, I'm so very sorry that you all are having to endure, all of those things. :(  I appreciate that you were willing to share those things. 

You're right, I'm trying to remember that everyone goes through terrible things, in this life. It kind of reminds me actually, of the verse about the devil being a roaring lion and that others are going through the same afflictions that he brings. So I, nor anyone else, should feel that we are alone in our struggles. And that God is the one that has the strength, to help us through them.

I'm trying to keep these things, in my heart.

[No Nicolaitans]

The Lord is good and greatly to be praised!

It's somewhat funny to me personally...the scar that I have from where the surgeon cut away my dead flesh from the flesh-eating bacteria is shaped like a cross.

There's a spiritual significance in that. :)

[Roselove]

16 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

The Lord is good and greatly to be praised!

It's somewhat funny to me personally...the scar that I have from where the surgeon cut away my dead flesh from the flesh-eating bacteria is shaped like a cross.

There's a spiritual significance in that. :)

Whoa! Now, that is very amazing! God works in mysterious, ways. Just as He, said! 

I believe God gave me a very wonderful sign, once. My dad died about 3 years ago, I wasn't sure if he was saved, he believed the Gospel, read the Bible, prayed, etc., but he was mentally ill, he didn't like going to church because he generally just didn't trust people and he had some strange understanding of some things in the Bible, like he didn't believe that he sinned anymore (because he didn't trespass against people) idk, I didn't really understand what he was talking about, but he did admit that he indeed, has sinned. Anyway, i was still very worried about him. I prayed very hard to God and I asked Him, "Please, show me if my dad, is okay!" It was about 4 days after he died that we got to view his body. He was smiling, I thought the mortician did it, so i asked them because it disturbed me that they would do that, but they said they are not able to do that, the face sets, as it decides to set. Also I learned about rigor mortis (i think it's called), some say a corpse can smile due to muscle tension, during this, but it wouldn't last anywhere near, 4 days. Everyone at the funeral, noticed, and one of the guest's brothers was a mortician, she said she'd never seen this before. I took this as a sign, from God, that my dad is okay. I had no idea how God would show me, I thought I might just have to wait, but I'm trusting that this was something God showed, me. 

[No Nicolaitans]

Well, I don't look at my situation as any type of sign; I just see it as having great spiritual significance.

My scar is shaped like a cross.

The cross was ugly and nothing to be desired. It showed the depths of our flesh's sinful state and what was needed to "fix the problem". The cross showed how deep the problem with our flesh was. It showed the extreme cost of what our flesh required.

My scar is a memorial of the corruption of my flesh.

I did nothing to earn my scar other than be my natural-fallen human self. I think I know how I contracted the bacteria, and if I'm correct, it shows that our actions affect others. I believe the actions of someone else is how I contracted the bacteria...I can't prove it, but I have enough knowledge to trace it back. Our flesh, and our actions in the flesh can cause great harm...not only to ourselves...but to others. The corruption of my flesh had to be done away with, or it would have claimed my life. It doesn't matter how I contracted it; it was now my corruption. I had to have it dealt with. I almost waited too late...I kept thinking that whatever was going on, I could fight it on my own...that I could handle it with my own wisdom...

That didn't work. It only got worse and worse until I was feverish and starting to not think clearly.

I had to go to someone who knew how to deal with the problem. I was helpless alone.

When I went to the person who knew what to do about my flesh's corruption and knew how to handle it...I put myself in their care and trust...the problem was dealt with. All of my efforts were no good; I had to trust the one who could deal with the problem.

I don't consider it a sign. It's a physical mark that just so happens to correlate and carry a great spiritual significance.

[Roselove]

8 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well, I don't look at my situation as any type of sign; I just see it as having great spiritual significance.

My scar is shaped like a cross.

The cross was ugly and nothing to be desired. It showed the depths of our flesh's sinful state and what was needed to "fix the problem". The cross showed how deep the problem with our flesh was. It showed the extreme cost of what our flesh required.

My scar is a memorial of the corruption of my flesh.

I did nothing to earn my scar other than be my natural-fallen human self. I think I know how I contracted the bacteria, and if I'm correct, it shows that our actions affect others. I believe the actions of someone else is how I contracted the bacteria...I can't prove it, but I have enough knowledge to trace it back. Our flesh, and our actions in the flesh can cause great harm...not only to ourselves...but to others. The corruption of my flesh had to be done away with, or it would have claimed my life. It doesn't matter how I contracted it; it was now my corruption. I had to have it dealt with. I almost waited too late...I kept thinking that whatever was going on, I could fight it on my own...that I could handle it with my own wisdom...

That didn't work. It only got worse and worse until I was feverish and starting to not think clearly.

I had to go to someone who knew how to deal with the problem. I was helpless alone.

When I went to the person who knew what to do about my flesh's corruption and knew how to handle it...I put myself in their care and trust...the problem was dealt with. All of my efforts were no good; I had to trust the one who could deal with the problem.

I don't consider it a sign. It's a physical mark that just so happens to correlate and carry a great spiritual significance.

Wow, I see what you're saying, guess i get signs and these types of things mixed up. I guess I thought that anything that God physically uses to remind us of Him, or comfort us, etc., was called, a sign. I really guess I never really thought of these things so, deeply. 

[No Nicolaitans]

13 hours ago, Roselove said:

I really guess I never really thought of these things so, deeply. 

Well...perhaps I've thought of my situation too deeply. 

[DaveW]

Just want to add a couple of things.

• The Manna is used as an illustration to us - illustrations never teach a new truth, they only support a truth.

By this I mean in this instance, the Manna is used as an example for us, but NEVER in the way you are proposing.

In fact, the manna is used in reference to Jesus as the bread, but it is used as follows:

John 6:31-35
(31)  Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
(32)  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
(33)  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
(34)  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
(35)  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 

You see, in this passage we are shown that Jesus is the "True bread" - the point is not that the manna had to be continually gathered, but that the manna gave them life.

This is further understood when Jesus says in vs 35 "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger".

Jesus actually makes the point that the difference between Him and the Manna is that men hungered after eating the Manna, but after accepting Him they will NEVER HUNGER.

You see, the teaching of the illustration about Manna SUPPORTS the doctrine of eternal security.

So you can happily strike the Manna argument off the list.

 

 

• Secondly, one of my favourite passages talks about signs and experiences:

2 Peter 1:19-21
(19)  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20)  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21)  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 

This is talking about the fact that the Word of God came from God, not from men.

It is called here a "More Sure" word of prophecy.

Have you ever wondered what it is "more sure" than?

You only have to look in the preceding verses:

2 Peter 1:16-18
(16)  For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
(17)  For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18)  And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
 

Note here that Paul says they were "eyewitnesses of His majesty". Then in the next two verses Peter describes the event he is talking about.

The Father speaks and says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", and at the end of vs 18 it says "when we were with Him in the holy mount"

 This is talking about what we call "the Transfiguration of Christ" and it is recorded in Matt 17:2-9; Mark 9:2-9; and Luke 9:28-36.

The most amazing thing to me about this is that Peter, James, and John saw the Lord transformed into His glorified body and standing there with Moses and Elijah on top of the Holy Mount, and Peter in the chapter above says that we have a "more Sure" Word of God than even this incredible experience that they genuinely did experience.

The Written Word of God is more sure, more reliable, more trustworthy than even the things you see with your own eyes, and the things you experience in this life.

Make no mistake - Peter really did see these things happen when he and James and John went onto the mountaintop with the Lord, but Peter (speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost) said the Word of God was even more sure than that.

If the Word of God was more sure than that certain experience, then the Word of God is more sure than anything you or I might experience, see, hear, feel, or otherwise perceive.

 

Trust the Word of God: It is true in all it says.

Psalms 119:160
(160)  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
 

 

[Roselove]

2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well...perhaps I've thought of my situation too deeply. 

Well, of course I can't know the full meaning of anyone's situation, but from what you described, you we're reminded of the truth of our situation. That our flesh indeed, is corrupt and Jesus, is our only remedy. At the very least, it just reminds you of that truth! :)

[Roselove]

I've always been confused with the parable about the talents. Is Jesus talking about the gifts that He gives us and using them? Or something else? I'm having a bit of a difficult time understanding it.

[No Nicolaitans]

28 minutes ago, Roselove said:

I've always been confused with the parable about the talents. Is Jesus talking about the gifts that He gives us and using them? Or something else? I'm having a bit of a difficult time understanding it.

You're reading it as if all of the "servants" were saved. Think of Judas Iscariot...think of the Roman Catholic Church. Think of the many false "servants" through the years. They supposedly serve(d) Christ, but that doesn't mean they were his. They served their own self-interest...not Christ. To be a servant doesn't mean they were saved; it just means that they served.

[Roselove]

7 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

You're reading it as if all of the "servants" were saved. Think of Judas Iscariot...think of the Roman Catholic Church. Think of the many false "servants" through the years. They supposedly serve(d) Christ, but that doesn't mean they were his. They served their own self-interest...not Christ. To be a servant doesn't mean they were saved; it just means that they served.

Okay, I'm going to reread it again! I'll get to it when i get home :)