Way of Life:Who Is the Twelfth Apostle?

[RSS Robot]

Who Is the Twelfth Apostle?
ACTS 1:26 — “And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
Revelation 21:14 says there are 12 apostles whose names are in the foundations of the eternal city of God, the New Jerusalem. Also Matthew 19:28 says there are apostles who will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
Who is the 12th apostle that takes Judas’ place? Matthias or Paul? Sixteen times Paul said that he was an apostle. He was personally called of God for this (2 Cor. 1:1; Gal. 1:1). The argument that Paul took the place of Judas as the 12th apostle is made as follows by George Sayles Bishop: “The one who takes Judas’ vacant place is Paul, not Matthias. Matthias was the suggestion of Peter, and Peter made mistakes. ... Read More

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[Ukulelemike]

Good article-made me think.

I have always believed Paul to be the 12th Apostle of the Lamb. But one thing Bro. Cloud wrote here is making me think: The 12 will have their names on each of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, and they will sit on 12 thrones judging Israel. The 12 were the Apostles to Israel, while Paul was specifically the Apostle to the Gentiles, (which was always interesting to me that he worked so hard trying to bring the Jews to Christ wherever he went). So, it would make sense that, since he was specifically to the Gentiles, even though a Jew himself, that he would not be one of those judging Israel, while the 12 TO Israel would. Also, Paul even refers to them as the 12, so he recognized Matthias as the replacement of Judas.

So I will be thinking about this. May have to change my position. Good thing it isn't a matter of heaven and hell!

[Jim_Alaska]

Bro. Cloud lays this out in a way that is clear cut and easy to understand. I too will have to mull this over, I had never heard it put quite this way.

[No Nicolaitans]

I think most here know my stance on this; in which, I believe Matthias was indeed the twelfth apostle.

I think what settled it in my mind was...

1. Paul referred to "the twelve" apart from himself in 1 Corinthians 15.

2. The Lord Jesus Christ was very clear...

Luke 22:28-30

 28  Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

 29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

 30  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul wasn't there when Christ spoke those words, nor was he there when Christ went through his temptations.

[swathdiver]

When I read Brother Cloud's article I had never heard nor considered that Paul was the 12th Apostle.  I considered him the baker's dozen, lucky thirteen, that bonus you get when buying a dozen bagels on Saturday morning!  

[Alan]

I read, printed, and then studied, the article by Brother Cloud, "Who Is the Twelfth Apostle? Dated: March 9, 2017

Since the article was written I had deliberately not replied due to not wanting to cause any ill-feeling with any of the brethren here. It is not my intention to debate the issue as initially I thought enough was previously written about who is the 12th. Apostle. But, the article does bring out a couple of things not mentioned before that I now feel inclined to answer.

I will briefly state what I feel. The numbering in my answers that I use is in accordance to the numbering system of the points in the article by Bro. Cloud.

1. Acts 1:26 states the results the 120 brethren (Acts 1:15), numbering of adding Matthias as the Apostle to replace Judas. It does not state whether or not the Lord agreed nor does it states that it was in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8

Acts 1:24 and 26 is very  clear that it was the 120  brethren 'chose' Matthias. "And they prayed, and said, Thou Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen. ... And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

Yes, the 120 brethren was in one accord (hardly impossible in this day and age; Lo!). Yes, Bro. Cloud  is correct, it was not a whim of the Apostle Peter; they deliberately, after prayer, did the lot with full agreement with the other 120 brethren. But, the agreement of the church, nor the casting of lots, is the criteria for selecting an Apostle.

It was not a church decision (the 120 brethren), or the decision of the other 11 disciples, to call the 12th Apostle.

An apostle is an individual personally called, by voice, of the Lord Jesus. "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of whom he chose twelve, whom he named apostles." Luke 6:13 The Lord Jesus, by voice, called Paul, then called Saul, as the 12th Apostle, Acts 9:15, to replace Judas Iscariot. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15 Please take careful note, as in Luke 6:13, the word, 'chosen', and 'chose' is used.

2. Bro. Cloud is partially right. Even though Matthias is, as he says, is considered an apostle due to his being chosen as one, does not mean the Lord chose him nor approved of him. The scriptures indicated (does not state though), merely (as Acts 1:26), indicates that the rest of the brethren considered him an apostle. That is true, even Paul admits that the other brethren did not consider him an apostle (see 1 Corinthians 9:1 & 2), but (supposedly), Matthias as an apostle.   Later on even others in church history are considered apostles by the churches.

[wretched]

7 minutes ago, Alan said:

I read, printed, and then studied, the article by Brother Cloud, "Who Is the Twelfth Apostle? Dated: March 9, 2017

Since the article was written I had deliberately not replied due to not wanting to cause any ill-feeling with any of the brethren here. It is not my intention to debate the issue as initially I thought enough was previously written about who is the 12th. Apostle. But, the article does bring out a couple of things not mentioned before that I now feel inclined to answer.

I will briefly state what I feel. The numbering in my answers that I use is in accordance to the numbering system of the points in the article by Bro. Cloud.

1. Acts 1:26 states the results the 120 brethren (Acts 1:15), numbering of adding Matthias as the Apostle to replace Judas. It does not state whether or not the Lord agreed nor does it states that it was in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8

Acts 1:24 and 26 is very  clear that it was the 120  brethren 'chose' Matthias. "And they prayed, and said, Thou Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen. ... And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

Yes, the 120 brethren was in one accord (hardly impossible in this day and age; Lo!). Yes, Bro. Cloud  is correct, it was not a whim of the Apostle Peter; they deliberately, after prayer, did the lot with full agreement with the other 120 brethren. But, the agreement of the church, nor the casting of lots, is the criteria for selecting an Apostle.

It was not a church decision (the 120 brethren), or the decision of the other 11 disciples, to call the 12th Apostle.

An apostle is an individual personally called, by voice, of the Lord Jesus. "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of whom he chose twelve, whom he named apostles." Luke 6:13 The Lord Jesus, by voice, called Paul, then called Saul, as the 12th Apostle, Acts 9:15, to replace Judas Iscariot. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15 Please take careful note, as in Luke 6:13, the word, 'chosen', and 'chose' is used.

2. Bro. Cloud is partially right. Even though Matthias is, as he says, is considered an apostle due to his being chosen as one, does not mean the Lord chose him nor approved of him. The scriptures indicated (does not state though), merely (as Acts 1:26), indicates that the rest of the brethren considered him an apostle. That is true, even Paul admits that the other brethren did not consider him an apostle (see 1 Corinthians 9:1 & 2), but (supposedly), Matthias as an apostle.   Later on even others in church history are considered apostles by the churches.

Very well put

[Alan]

Brethren,

I am having difficulties submitting this article. I am covering all five points that Brother Cloud mentioned. As I can post them they will be posted.

Alan

Edited March 11, 2017 by Alan
grammer

[Alan]

Cloud point 3 to the end.odt

4. Yes, Bro. Cloud uses a partial truth. Paul does consider him an apostle to the Gentiles and his mission was primarily to establish churches in Gentile areas. How that is to mean that he cannot be the 12th. Apostle does not make sense. The issue is very clear. Who is the 12th Apostle? In Revelation 21:14 there can only be twelve. In Matthew 19:28 the Lord Jesus clearly states that the 12 Apostles (and only 12), will sit on the 12 tribes of Israel (one apostle per tribe).

May I remind the brethren of the Lord Jesus, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15 The Lord Jesus clearly states, "... and the children of Israel." Paul was an apostle whether he was in a Gentile country, in a Gentile church or whether he was in the nation of Israel.

Therefore, the Lord Jesus clearly stated the Paul is an apostle to the Jews also. And, that he is qualified to sit on one of the thrones judging one of the tribes of Israel in the coming kingdom on the earth.

5. Yes, that is true, in 1 Corinthians 15:5, "And that he was seen of Cephas, than of the twelve." As I mentioned before, the apostle Paul was stating that the selection of Matthias was a well known fact. Paul could not change that fact; he lived with it and accepted the decision.

Since the days of the early church, churches have been selecting apostles, pastors, missionaries, evangelists, bishops, elders, Bible teachers, and other brethren (and sisters), into positions of the church that they are not qualified to fulfill.

In the concluding statement, Brother Cloud says the following, "We believe, therefore, that Paul's place of authority in Christ's earthly kingdom will continue to be associated particularly with Gentile saints." I personally respect, and agree with almost all Brother Cloud writes, but, I respectfully disagree with that statement. I believe that the Apostle Paul will sit as the12th. Apostle sitting on one of the thrones in the coming kingdom over one of the tribes of Israel. "... and the children of Israel."

Alan

 

 

[1611mac]

Some good points Alan. Thanks for posting. 

May I post a paragraph from Bro. Clouds "Things Hard to Be Understood?" 

A word about the author’s fallibility. We are not deluded into thinking that we have the final word on the Bible’s difficulties. The comments in this book are intended to help fortify the hearts of God’s people against today’s fantastic onslaught of error and skepticism. We are convinced the Scriptures are accurate in every detail, and though our particular answer to every problem might not be the right one, we have seen enough to know that there IS an answer to every problem. Robert Hoerber wisely observes: “It is important to remember that in solving alleged discrepancies it is sufficient that a possible way of harmonizing the two texts in question be pointed out. More cannot in fairness be asked. An alleged contradiction disappears the minute a possible method of bringing the respective propositions into agreement is suggested. If several possible explanations are suggested, it becomes all the more unreasonable for one to contend that a discrepancy exists.” (David Cloud, Things Hard to be Understood, pg 2)

 

[No Nicolaitans]

May I please ask for forgiveness. It wasn't my intention to cause (or bring up again past) disagreements. 

The foot has once again invaded the mouth...

[Alan]

Cloud - Apostle - point # 3 only.odt

 

This was the point that did not upload. This is also the last.

Alan