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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Resource for Pastors' Wives


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I am looking to see if anyone knows of a forum or something specifically for pastors' wives.

See, we are in a very remote area, with no access to get to meetings or other good IFB churches with mature, long-time preachers and their wives, to whom we might speak for advice.

SHort version: My wife and I are at odds on how some of the people in our church ought to be handled. Without specifics, my wife and his wife have never really gotten along, but then, the othe wife is young, and quite immature-she doesn't want to read her Bible, refuses to take advice, especially from my wife, as well as from me, and sees any disagreement as an attack. Her husband is sick, going to have a surgery soon that is hoped will take care of the problem, because he has seemd to want to be active in the church. BUT, he also seems to have an issue with lying, hiding things from us because he knows we will disapprove, like playing Pokemon Go, which he swears he doesn't play anymore, but apparently is open about playing with another fellow in the church, who I guess he assumes won't say anything about it. He claims to carry a bachelor's degree in biochemistry, yet he has no knowledge of the basics of that kind of information, ( my wife is very involved in sciences). So we are pretty certain he's lying because you don't get a four-year degree and remember nothing about what you studied. BUt of course, how to prove.

So basically, my wife's thing is, just directly and bluntly accuse them of these issues, call them out bluntly about everything, and send them away. Whereas my belief is, because they're young and immature, we keep teaching them the truth, deal with specific issues as they come up, and pray the Lord will change their hearts. I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. 

But my wife can't keep from jumping and speaking whenever she feels it is 'the right time', and it can be harmful. And to keep from going any further, I think it would be good for her to speak with other pastor's wives, as I am sure this isn't just something particular to us, and get some experienced views from mature godly women, and how they worked their dynamics with their husbands.  You know, we just literally have no resources. Yes, I can say, "I am the man and you'l do thinsg as I say!", but I suspect most of us men know how well that works.

So, any ideas? I think she tried to get into some of the ladies' rooms here but couldn't do it and I'm not sure how to help there, either. And I really don't just want a forum of women complaining about how terrible it is to be a pastor's wife-we have seen plenty of those. If we can't maintain our relationship in a godly manner without continual arguing about these kinds of things, how can I lead the house of God?

Thanks, All

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My instinct is to suggest that the first place to go for such answer, is scripture.  If you haven't already, or even if you have before, do an in depth study on the subjects of authority and conflict resolution in scripture.  

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

Yes, I can say, "I am the man and you'l do thinsg as I say!", but I suspect most of us men know how well that works.

As Christians, I don't think it's as much about us getting our desired results as it is obeying the commands and processes laid out for us by God.  If we are following God's directions for certain situations, but others are being disobedient or we are otherwise not getting the desired result, it does not follow that we try something other than what God has laid out.

We know that husbands are to honor and love their wives and treat them with respect and dignity (and vice versa): 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, 1 Peter 3:7,  Ephesians 5:25, Ephesians 5:28, Ephesians 5:33 &c.

We know that women are to submit to their husbands and they are not to have authority over the man: Ephesians 5:22-24,  1 Timothy 2:12.

We know that we are to expose and rebuke sin amongst believers, in love, meekness and charity: Matthew 18:15-17, Luke 17:3,  1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 6:1,  1 Timothy 5:20, James 5:19-20.

As I said, I would start in those places and go through the processes that God has designed.  If they don't submit, treat them in the way we are told to treat them, or, if scripture is silent on further treatment, allow God to work.

 

Edited by Brother Stafford
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1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

My instinct is to suggest that the first place to go for such answer, is scripture.  If you haven't already, or even if you have before, do an in depth study on the subjects of authority and conflict resolution in scripture.  

As Christians, I don't think it's as much about us getting our desired results as it is obeying the commands and processes laid out for us by God.  If we are following God's directions for certain situations, but others are being disobedient or we are otherwise not getting the desired result, it does not follow that we try something other than what God has laid out.

We know that husbands are to honor and love their wives and treat them with respect and dignity (and vice versa): 1 Corinthians 7:3-51 Peter 3:7,  Ephesians 5:25, Ephesians 5:28, Ephesians 5:33 &c.

We know that women are to submit to their husbands and they are not to have authority over the man: Ephesians 5:22-24,  1 Timothy 2:12.

We know that we are to expose and rebuke sin amongst believers, in love, meekness and charity: Matthew 18:15-17, Luke 17:3,  1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 6:1,  1 Timothy 5:20, James 5:19-20.

As I said, I would start in those places and go through the processes that God has designed.  If they don't submit, treat them in the way we are told to treat them, or, if scripture is silent on further treatment, allow God to work.

 

Thanks Brother. yes, scripture is, of course, the first recourse. I think what I'm looking for, though, is also HOW this submission is practically carried out by other pastors' wives. She understands the issues of submission and such, but HOW to do it correctly, particularly in such areas. After all, the Bible also says that the older women are to teach and train the younger women, which is what she is, admittedly, trying to do. I just don't know that her method, which is point-blank bluntness, ("You're a liar, you do such-and-such," etc), is always the right way. I agree that some people need just that, and can accept it and learn from it-both she and I personally work well that way. But not everyone does and she doesn't seem to accept that not everyone receives instruction the same way she does. And so, this brings the arguments between us. I guess it is hard for a pastor to try to teach his own wife and be her pastor, as well. And this is why I was hoping to find some godly preachers' wives who might have some experience in how to do this, to accept husband as both husband AND pastor.

Another thought, would be maybe a book on the subject, written by a godly pastor's wife for others, as my wife prefers to learn by reading.

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8 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

I just don't know that her method, which is point-blank bluntness, ("You're a liar, you do such-and-such," etc), is always the right way. I agree that some people need just that, and can accept it and learn from it-both she and I personally work well that way. 

But, it seems that we are told to just just that; not to beat around the bush, but to address it head on; in meekness and charity, of course.

8 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

But not everyone does and she doesn't seem to accept that not everyone receives instruction the same way she does.

It just seem to me that we are told how to confront people:  Bluntly; privately, at first, then publicly.  I'm sure that not all people will respond to God's methods, but I don't think that we should seek out softer or alternative methods simply because of the fact that people are hard headed or hard hearted.

As I said before, it is not our job to make sure that people respond, it is our job to address situations in the ways that God tells us to.  If they still rebel, unless they are our children (or if someone wants to make a case for using a rod on wives or church members) then we must let God deal with them.

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10 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

But, it seems that we are told to just just that; not to beat around the bush, but to address it head on; in meekness and charity, of course.

It just seem to me that we are told how to confront people:  Bluntly; privately, at first, then publicly.  I'm sure that not all people will respond to God's methods, but I don't think that we should seek out softer or alternative methods simply because of the fact that people are hard headed or hard hearted.

As I said before, it is not our job to make sure that people respond, it is our job to address situations in the ways that God tells us to.  If they still rebel, unless they are our children (or if someone wants to make a case for using a rod on wives or church members) then we must let God deal with them.

You know you're making me look bad-lol.

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Oh yeah, Thanks, there, Grizzly Adams. XD

No, you're just making me have to look at maybe me being too hard on my wife-maybe she has the right idea. Not that I haven't considered it.

And by the way, thats an Oliver Hardy get-up.

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The older women are encouraged to "teach" the younger women. Not accuse them, rebuke, correct them or run them off. That's not teaching. That's not your job as the pastor either (I know, "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering.."). It's her husband's job. And if he won't do it, it don't get done. He'll answer to God, if he's saved. He's her head, not your wife. Not to be ugly, but how can a pastor's wife not actually, truely subject to her own husband correct and accuse another wife who is galloping around with the bit in her teeth?

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13 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

See, we are in a very remote area, with no access to get to meetings or other good IFB churches with mature, long-time preachers and their wives, to whom we might speak for advice.

Oliver :15_1_63: ,

This is a good idea.

A lot of times women can help one another in areas that men cannot. Sometimes, some fellowship, talk, discussion, with other ladies in her position, can be a help, an encouragement, and a blessing.

Did not Rebecca Young have some devotions? or Bible studies? or something of this nature in the Christian LIving / OnLine Baptist Ladies forum at one time? Maybe your wife could get with her? Or, maybe your wife could start something for the ladies?:4_6_2v:

 

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Uke, maybe have your wife pm me? We can discuss doing something in the ladies' forum, with some ground rules as to no complaining. Or, if she's interested, I'd be glad to chat with her via pm. While I've not been a pastor's wife as yet (that will possibly change soon), I have had to learn to deal with myself and my natural tendency to be blunt (very often too blunt and with no tact at all) and how to have/show compassion without accepting sin. Not that I have all the answers, but mayhap talking things over with a woman of probably close temperament would help - us both, actually. 

But, since things have been discussed here, I would have to say that one thing we need to be is wise as serpents and harmless as doves. That would involve making VERY sure that blunt confrontation is what God would have us use as a tool for a particular person. It is not always the way to go. Many times being too blunt can harm an immature believer, and especially one who already has issues with the reprover. And if someone is scornful (as this woman seems to be), reproof falls on deaf ears anyway.

 

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I wouldn't mind starting up some lessons and discussion in the ladies forums, if other ladies are also interested. I may revive a couple of old threads.

Personally, I am currently trying to help/counsel a few women in my church, and I also have next to no resources to fall back on, aside from the Bible and advice from the Pastor when needed. Unfortunately I am facing a situation that has caused me to seriously think about taking an online course in Christian counseling as well as some other courses that I really feel will be helpful in similar situations.

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You must let the Holy Spirit direct you here.  There are times to be honest and truthful and you can actually see evidence of the good fruit that results.  There are also times to be cautious and again, you can actually see evidence of this "approach" also.  In other words, we have all actually seen with our eyes the "successful" fruit of each.  My only comment might be that there are few that take the "honest and truthful" approach these days even though that might be what is spiritually needed.  Too many pastors and leaders want to tip-toe around issues as they don't want to "rock the boat," even when that is the proper course of action. Much prayer and discernment is needed any time these issues are dealt with.

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I would suggest an alternative method of helping this woman.  It has been my experience that those who are confronted with error at a time in which they are not desiring nor willing to be confronted never respond well even in the best scenarios.

Romans 2:4 states that the goodness of God bringeth men to repentance and we have all been in that place where we expected God to chastise us and instead we received a blessing.  There are times that confrontation is an absolute necessity as there can be no true peace without confrontation.  But, there are other times when a sugar cube opens the heart for gentle persuasion.  It is not always essential that a person be confronted considering love covereth a multitude of sins.  Always keep in mind that our primary duty is to restore and not destroy; if you will follow the interactions Jesus had with others during his earthly ministry I believe you will find that even with those who were in open sin he rebuked softly leaving the final choice to those he spoke with.

A negative approach will likely result in a negative response, I believe your wife should take this as a challenge to build a relationship with the woman in question.  Perhaps offering a time of refreshment that fits into the other woman’s schedule.  Not to discuss problems but build bridges of trust, it is likely that the other woman has reasons for not trusting or responding to the offered advice.  Don’t forget that Paul opinion of John Mark changed over the years because of Barnabas was willing to be an encourager and mentor.  Mark grew in the Lord and Paul grew in grace a remarkable result for both. 

Try not to view this as a challenge to authority but an opportunity to love a person while they are struggling for answers. 

As to your wife getting counsel from other women I believe there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.  Bi-vocational makes it nearly impossible to fellowship with other folks in the ministry (I did it for 12 years) but there is still the telephone and email as well as forums.  Also, I am not one who believes you cannot be friends with your church members for the local church is a family and everyone in a family should be friends. 

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14 hours ago, weary warrior said:

The older women are encouraged to "teach" the younger women. Not accuse them, rebuke, correct them or run them off. That's not teaching. That's not your job as the pastor either (I know, "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering.."). It's her husband's job. And if he won't do it, it don't get done. He'll answer to God, if he's saved. He's her head, not your wife. Not to be ugly, but how can a pastor's wife not actually, truely subject to her own husband correct and accuse another wife who is galloping around with the bit in her teeth?

The problem is, a lot of what my wife is also dealing with, with this young lady, is that the young lady hhas always been specifically passively, (and not-so-passively) aggressive toward my wife. We have had her in the church for some 6 years, off and on, from when she was an older teen. She would fool around on her phone, flirt with ANY young man who came in, and when told to stop, (particularly by my wife), she would get mad and mouthy, even had her step-father come to church one day to tell us to stop harrassing her. He was an old friend of my wifes, and we let him know what was going on.

Eventually I had to put her out because she decided that, since she couldn't find a nice guy, she decided she was a lesbian. When we spoke with her about that, and the sin involved, since she supposed herself to be a Christian, she got mad at me, and her aunt, who thought it was wonderful, also got on my case, and her mother, as well. So I told her that until she got right with the Lord she was no longer welcome at the church.   It was a couple years later she sowed up one day with her new husband and apologized for her behaviour. Her husband got saved, and later, so did she, (ostensibly), and they have been in since, for a couple years now. But this ongoing feud with my wife has never ended and the other day she admitted that she has been mad at my wife for the last six years and has never gotten over it. Any direction on modest clothes she ignores, and her husband really doesn't have the presence of mind, apparently, to remind her. I have sent her home to change becuse of what she sometimes wears. She rebels, and it's pretty obvious now that her rebellion is against my wife, and I suspect it is because she has a lousy relationship with her mother, and she sees my wife as someone kind of trying to mother her.

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2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

The problem is, a lot of what my wife is also dealing with, with this young lady, is that the young lady hhas always been specifically passively, (and not-so-passively) aggressive toward my wife. We have had her in the church for some 6 years, off and on, from when she was an older teen. She would fool around on her phone, flirt with ANY young man who came in, and when told to stop, (particularly by my wife), she would get mad and mouthy, even had her step-father come to church one day to tell us to stop harrassing her. He was an old friend of my wifes, and we let him know what was going on.

Eventually I had to put her out because she decided that, since she couldn't find a nice guy, she decided she was a lesbian. When we spoke with her about that, and the sin involved, since she supposed herself to be a Christian, she got mad at me, and her aunt, who thought it was wonderful, also got on my case, and her mother, as well. So I told her that until she got right with the Lord she was no longer welcome at the church.   It was a couple years later she sowed up one day with her new husband and apologized for her behaviour. Her husband got saved, and later, so did she, (ostensibly), and they have been in since, for a couple years now. But this ongoing feud with my wife has never ended and the other day she admitted that she has been mad at my wife for the last six years and has never gotten over it. Any direction on modest clothes she ignores, and her husband really doesn't have the presence of mind, apparently, to remind her. I have sent her home to change becuse of what she sometimes wears. She rebels, and it's pretty obvious now that her rebellion is against my wife, and I suspect it is because she has a lousy relationship with her mother, and she sees my wife as someone kind of trying to mother her.

My brother, all of this, in my opinion , only strengthens my position. As long as there is a feud with the man-of-God's wife, this feud will always consume this girl's focus and attention. She will not hear the man of God and the word of God that he teaches.

I've been counseling in the ministry since 1996. I have a mom, 3 sisters, a wife and 4 daughters. And the Bible. I know what Im talking about. Women get so emotionally wrapped up and personally involved in fights with other women, us men can't even begin to relate. Thats why God wont let them teach or lead the men in church. They dont seperate out their emotions, and everything is personal. It sounds like this has become personal with your wife as well. Which is natural. But "where no wood is, there the fire goeth out". Your wife's involvement in this girl's rebellion is, in your own words, resented. And I'm sure it's not doing your wife much good either.

How would I handle the situation?

First - I would remove my wife from it completely, for her own well-being. My wife's ministry is as my help meet. Not my associate pastor of women. I would remove her out from under a burden she is shouldering that she was not created or designed to bare, because I love her more than any church member, and it is my job to protect her. Often from herself.

Second - I would go have coffee or something with the young husband. He will never be a man unless treated like a man and given the responsibility as such. I would gently lay the responsibility of his wife's behaviour squarely on his shoulders, and then offer to be there to encourage and counsel him while he learned to carry it. But he has to carry it. No one else. God didn't give it to anyone else, so no one else has the right. All of your effort should be focused on him, by default you will be handling the other situation by extension.

Third - I would completely back off all pressure that my wife and I have put on this young lady to conform or perform in any manner. We would love her, pray for her and gently place her in the hands of her head. As long as someone else is always handling his responsibility for him, why should he ever step up? 

I know. From reading the other posts on here, I'm pretty sure that I will be standing alone in this position. And it's OK. But I feel I've given you the counsel that God said give, as difficult as it is to hear and understand in this modern age.

 

Edited by weary warrior
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2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

My brother, all of this, in my opinion , only strengthens my position. As long as there is a feud with the man-of-God's wife, this feud will always consume this girl's focus and attention. She will not hear the man of God and the word of God that he teaches.

I've been counseling in the ministry since 1996. I have a mom, 3 sisters, a wife and 4 daughters. And the Bible. I know what Im talking about. Women get so emotionally wrapped up and personally involved in fights with other women, us men can't even begin to relate. Thats why God wont let them teach or lead the men in church. They dont seperate out their emotions, and everything is personal. It sounds like this has become personal with your wife as well. Which is natural. But "where no wood is, there the fire goeth out". Your wife's involvement in this girl's rebellion is, in your own words, resented. And I'm sure it's not doing your wife much good either.

How would I handle the situation?

First - I would remove my wife from it completely, for her own well-being. My wife's ministry is as my help meet. Not my associate pastor of women. I would remove her out from under a burden she is shouldering that she was not created or designed to bare, because I love her more than any church member, and it is my job to protect her. Often from herself.

Second - I would go have coffee or something with the young husband. He will never be a man unless treated like a man and given the responsibility as such. I would gently lay the responsibility of his wife's behaviour squarely on his shoulders, and then offer to be there to encourage and counsel him while he learned to carry it. But he has to carry it. No one else. God didn't give it to anyone else, so no one else has the right. All of your effort should be focused on him, by default you will be handling the other situation by extension.

Third - I would completely back off all pressure that my wife and I have put on this young lady to conform or perform in any manner. We would love her, pray for her and gently place her in the hands of her head. As long as someone else is always handling his responsibility for him, why should he ever step up? 

I know. From reading the other posts on here, I'm pretty sure that I will be standing alone in this position. And it's OK. But I feel I've given you the counsel that God said give, as difficult as it is to hear and understand in this modern age.

 

Actually, in considerin all I have read, and there is a lot of good here, this is about what I have been moving toward. I am going to speak with the husband and put my wife off the hunt, as it were. We have spoken quite a bit-I know she's passionate about growth but this isn't working. She's been trying to get on this posting to see all this, but for some reason it is saying she needs permission to get into the forum, even though she's a member with no restrictions.

Thanks brother. You're not alone

 

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12 hours ago, weary warrior said:

I know. From reading the other posts on here, I'm pretty sure that I will be standing alone in this position. And it's OK. But I feel I've given you the counsel that God said give, as difficult as it is to hear and understand in this modern age.

 

10 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Thanks brother. You're not alone

This is the same that I would advise as well. Its important to not interfere with God's headship authority but rather support it though our preaching. I often tell the church men that I am not their wives authority, they are. It is the individuals job to conform to the leading of their authority. Men to Christ, Women to their Husbands, Singles tho their parents. Any other submission in regards to the church is voluntarily one to another in the fear of God. Love them but also teach them to fear God and obey willingly. Then the sinful habits will go away on their own because sin is the symptom of walking in the flesh and not with the spirit of God. If we merely demand a person do away with this sin or that bad habit but neglect always replacing them with the spiritual things, then another sin will always take its place a haughty and rebellious spirit develops and we look like "better then thou" nitpicks. Ephesians chapter 5 is a good passage on following God.

Ephesians 5:1-2 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Ephesians 5:21 submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Edited by John Young
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I will be giving my attention to this tonight, as I am speaking with the husband, alone, tonight. I am going to be placing the burden of his wife's instruction into his hands, outside, of course, on the general preaching-if there comes any issues, ie, dress, modesty, etc, issues we have had in the past, I will be addressing him about it, and expecting him to deal with it. Going to sort of force him to be the man.

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On 03/07/2017 at 8:29 PM, Alan said:

Oliver :15_1_63: ,

This is a good idea.

A lot of times women can help one another in areas that men cannot. Sometimes, some fellowship, talk, discussion, with other ladies in her position, can be a help, an encouragement, and a blessing.

Did not Rebecca Young have some devotions? or Bible studies? or something of this nature in the Christian LIving / OnLine Baptist Ladies forum at one time? Maybe your wife could get with her? Or, maybe your wife could start something for the ladies?:4_6_2v:

 

There really are no ladies except for this young woman, and one on one with her would be unwise. Husband forgot the mention there are only 4 regulars right now , that couple , and two brothers who were saved in our church 7 years ago.

 Dear Husband also left out these people have been using us both up. Calling and texting at all hours of the morning and night, often sanding rides to the hospital 40 miles away or rides home from the hospital, they don't drive, we are 60 miles away from a big city for shopping. This couple ostensibly invited new people to church, who live close to them, then they were inviting a girl their age to stay with them, them abusing her in their home, accusing her of stealing their Top Ramen, but demanding her food stamps for their food, she finally left the area. The other new people they invited are more welfare folks that don't drive, and now we are taking them shopping every month 60 miles away, and they hardly show up to church, but are at least nice and grateful for the help.

The couple are never really grateful for the constant help. We have given them dog food, vitamins for their  constant health problems, loaned them two rabbit traps as the husband was always. " Hunting" rabbits with a 22 which his nieghbor complained about, ( remember, very rural), and we never got those traps back, we gave them a charge controller and set it up with the solar panels their landlord had ( father of the twins in our church), when they decided to pay more rent and get into a house, we spent $300 on groceries and flatware and dishes for them to prove to adult protective services they were competent enough to live on their own( maybe that was the mistake). I did that without complaint, thinking I was doing the right thing. I cleaned her refrigerator and stove for the APS worker meeting so she wouldn't send the wife back to her abusive mother ( who is the reason she's in the state she is in). They haven't been able to keep a clean house since. Cigarettes mashed into the floor. They invited us over for Thanksgiving a year ago, house was cold enough we could see our breathe ( yes our house gets like that too but we aren't inviting people over for dinner). Food was cold, served on a take out box lid. We don't have much here but we have a decent thrift store and she goes there a lot. Her idea of cleaning seems to be sweeping everything out the door and throwing it away and buying new stuff to replace it.

They are both on  disability. Her mother put her on ( mental health) and had her on psych meds that retarded her development. But she has shown an amazing ability to pick up on the lessons. But she won't use it.

The husband is Spina bifida, is weak but constantly injuring himself trying to be macho and having to go to the hospital for overexertion. He "works "for a filthy mouthed  reprobate under the radar le and works also for the little store. Shoveling snow. Neither can grasp the separation doctrine . Their best friends are this reprobate and a JW that is a very bad drunk and our neighbor also. DH has tried to reason through the scriptures with the JW and had to shake the dust off his feet. This young  couple refuse to quit hanging out with him. He's a liar and that alone keeps me repulsed by him.  They used to hang with another reprobate who had to move to a larger town for medical reasons, whose son was in trouble for molestation. I mean they have no judgement, they pick the worst people to hang out with. They. Aren't getting them saved. They hang out with drug dealers and turns out they are using pot and now Dear Husband is decided not to judge them anymore. They are now wearing earrings in the nose ( wife) and one ear ( husband). And now we can't say anything because they don't want to be judged.

Wife has been showing abundant cleavage for 6 years and abundant legs. Not a pretty girl either. No amount of begging or instruction seems to help. Sometimes she dresses modest. But it seems to be according to her mood. We even had a pentacostal couple coming for a few months and the wife asked why we didn't do something to correct the young wife. I told her I had. She gave it a go and the young wife ignored her too.

It's not just that I hate her and single her out to be mean to her. She does things that constantly violate human decency and relationship skills. Formerly known as etiquette. But there's no more if that in this town anymore. She blurts out the latest problem going on in her life with no self control. She does this on Facebook. Constant selfies of her and her cleavage. And then gets upset if I say anything.

She constantly misunderstands what I say. One example. I was trying to show the subliminal messages on sex Disney was putting out via Facebook shares, and instead of reading the links and watching the videos, she facebooked to her thousands of " friends" that she was a slut for liking Disney. This began a long public conversation where I was trying to show this was what was going on in the whole world, the deterioration of culture and decency, so maybe she could see where she may have gotten the idea that dressing scantily is something the world influenced her on from. Very young. But not just her, everyone, Brittany Spears and Miley Cyrus are both Disney kids and look at what happened to them. And look at the fools coming out, and just the hypersexuality on of children in no IES and ads. But no, she got mad and her husband got into it and thought I was insulting his wife them started texting Pastor Mike who was in bed Saturday night after 10 pm and he got up and replied to the husband on my computer. But this is typical of what they put us through.

The latest thing is what is happening to the church money?

There is no church money. Nobody gives. It all comes from Pastor Mike's secular job. He pays for everything out if his personal money. But they aren't satisfied with that. They are asking it again. I sent them articles in " should pastor's be paid"? And the articles largely agreed not only pay the pastor, but his car insurance and food  and housing and we know Pastor s that get taken care of. We know we can't expect that. But it's the standard and if they want to help us they can at least start trying to be independent people and quit relying on us for everything so hard. I mean, they don't seem to be capable if buying a stamp to send a letter for example. They ask me for stamps.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought it would help to fill in a few areas.

Oh and we give eggs, not just a dozen, 3 18 packs at a time. We have chickens and we found if we keep a light on in the winter we get winter eggs. We feed them well and we share. But with this couple it's always a demand and no thank yous and it gets tiresome. When they had that other girl at their house, she announced her pregnancy ( out of wedlock of course, how else would it be?) This wife blurted out pastor's wife would supply her with milk and eggs for the baby. Well I might but don't make the offer if you're not me. That's typical of this girl.

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Oops sorry, but because we spend enough on " the church" to try to take care of others, I still am waiting for running water inside the house.( Pipes broken). This is going on 3 years. Right now I wash dishes in a 5 gallon bucket outside, my hot water is the sun heating up the hose. In winter all bets are off. Right now we are enjoying our global warming. Warmest March ever and I love it.

DH bought me a washer and dryer for $20 not a typo, and I love them. They are outside, so when winter, again all bets are off. Our load was frozen in the washer for two months. Dryer has no heating element, sucks in ambient air to dry, fine in summer, not so effective in winter. I will buy an element for $23 , yes it's in my wish list, but again, I get a little tired if these peoples accusations of wasting church money on the goats.

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