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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Hell's Compartments: Then, Now, and In the Future.


John Young
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Hell is the place souls go that are without bodies.

There were two compartments in Hell. One for those who are tormented and destined to be judged and another for those who were comforted and waiting for their redemption. When Jesus descended at his death he went to the prison of Hell. Those in prison that he preached to were not in rebellion to God but only "sometime were disobedient". They were sinners that believed in God and were waiting for the redemption so that they could be saved by Christ. The faithful of old, from before the crucifixion, were led captive from the captivity of the grave.

Today there is now only one compartment for the rebellious because the debt has been paid and the faithful disobedient no longer go to Abraham's in prison but to be with the Lord in Heaven.

One day their will be no Hell all will be resurrected in body and those who are not already in Christ will stand before God to be judged. 

Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.9 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

Ephesians 4:7-10 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

2 Corinthians 5:7-8 (for we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Romans 8:22-24 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Daniel 12:2-3 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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3 hours ago, John Young said:

Daniel 12:2-3 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

3 hours ago, John Young said:

Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

John Young,

Thanks. :) Your lesson is a good reminder for us to be more zealous in our soul winning efforts. 

Alan

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On 9/17/2016 at 3:51 AM, John Young said:

There were two compartments in Hell.

I'm not entirely convinced of this. The phrase 'afar off' could mean as far as Heaven is from Hell.

I believe this type of 'separation' is alluded to here...

Luke 16:26
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

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On 9/17/2016 at 3:51 AM, John Young said:

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Why can't this simply refer to Mary's Womb?

I offer this as reference...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

The phrase 'Lowest parts of the Earth' is clearly referring to a Mother's belly during pregnancy.

Even the word 'Pit' refers to the Womb...

Isaiah 51:1
"Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged"

Look at the word 'first' in the verse. What was the first thing Jesus did when he came to Earth?

He descended into Mary's Womb to become born.

Simple and beautiful.

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6 hours ago, MJW said:

I'm not entirely convinced of this. The phrase 'afar off' could mean as far as Heaven is from Hell.

I believe this type of 'separation' is alluded to here...

Luke 16:26
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Heaven and hell are indeed far off from each other, but I don’t believe you can see one from the other. 

The old testament saints could not to heaven until the sacrifice for their sins – Christ – had been completed.  Their souls had to go somewhere. If not Hades, then where?

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They obviously saw each other in OT times, and even were able to communicate on at least one occasion - according to Jesus in Luke 16 - though there was a great uncrossable gulf between the two places.

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Hi Jerry and Salyan.

Have either of you ever had a dream that was so real, it was as if you were in a different place altogether?

How about a nightmare?

When having a dream or nightmare, we often have 'visions' of places and events. They seem physical, yet... it's a bit of a mystery how it all works.

You folks obviously know there are many verses referring to the dead as 'sleeping'...

Ephesians 5:14
"Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light"

The point I'm making is that I believe when the dead are sleeping, they are dreaming. The main difference between them and us is they no longer have a body to wake up into... at least not until Resurrection Day.

The Rich Man, being in Hell, was having a nightmare.

Lazarus, being in Abraham's Bosom, was having a pleasant dream.

Somehow, the two are able to interact. Again, this shouldn't be too hard to imagine since we've all had dreams where it was as if we interacted with other people and other worlds.

Yet, there is no way we can pass from our bed to these other places.

I hope that makes sense.

As a side note, we often hear that the 'dead know nothing'...

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"

People interpret that as if the dead have no consciousness outside of the body. What they do not understand is that the living know nothing either...

Job 8:9
(For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)

That's another topic I suppose.

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Context, context, context. The Bible does not teach any kind of soul sleep or unconsciousness of the dead. They are conscious - just not aware of what is going on i the world after they have departed it. The context of Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Job 14:21 show that. Job 8:9 is not even referring to what believe think or are aware of after death.

Sad - you claim to believe the King James Bible, but post in various threads in such a manner as to explain it away.

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50 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Context, context, context. The Bible does not teach any kind of soul sleep or unconsciousness of the dead. They are conscious - just not aware of what is going on i the world after they have departed it. The context of Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Job 14:21 show that. Job 8:9 is not even referring to what believe think or are aware of after death.

Sad - you claim to believe the King James Bible, but post in various threads in such a manner as to explain it away.

What is sad is that, not only did you not comprehend what I wrote, but you bore false witness against me.

Nowhere did I mention 'Soul Sleep' or say that the dead are not conscious... quite the opposite actually.

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Fascinating verses about communication in a dream state...

Job 33:14-15
"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not"
"In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed"

and...

Genesis 31:11
"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I"

or...

Genesis 20:3
"But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife"

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16 hours ago, MJW said:

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Why can't this simply refer to Mary's Womb?

I offer this as reference...

Psalms 139:15 "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

The phrase 'Lowest parts of the Earth' is clearly referring to a Mother's belly during pregnancy.

Even the word 'Pit' refers to the Womb...

Isaiah 51:1 "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged"

Look at the word 'first' in the verse. What was the first thing Jesus did when he came to Earth?

He descended into Mary's Womb to become born.

Simple and beautiful.

Because nowhere in the text does it say its referring figuratively to the womb and neither do your referenced verses. It simply is not a metaphorical passage but a describing actual literal actions taken by Christ. Apostle Paul is not making poetry about Christ physical birth but rather contrasting literal actions that Christ took as his Death Burial and Resurrection.

As to Psalms 139:15 David is not referring to his formation in the womb but rather to his "substance". His elements in the earth formed by God long before he was conceived that would one day make up his body. Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of themAs to Isaiah 51:1 that is a figurative allusion, but not of a womb, but of a rock quarry.

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17 hours ago, MJW said:

Why can't this simply refer to Mary's Womb?

 

That was your reply/response/question to John's following quotation...

 

On 9/17/2016 at 6:51 AM, John Young said:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

 

Why can't it simply refer to Mary's womb? It can't, because it's referring to the fact that BEFORE Christ ascended to heaven, he first descended into the lower parts of the earth to set free those who were kept in Abraham's bosom.

17 hours ago, MJW said:

I offer this as reference...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

The phrase 'Lowest parts of the Earth' is clearly referring to a Mother's belly during pregnancy.

 

No it isn't. You may want to do a word study on what all "the lowest parts of the earth" can (and does) refer to. However, I will tell you this...not once does "womb" get mentioned.

 

17 hours ago, MJW said:

Even the word 'Pit' refers to the Womb...

Isaiah 51:1
"Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged"

 

No it doesn't. The word "pit" refers to the current situation that they had "dug themselves into". They were in a bad situation due to their rebelliousness. They had dug themselves into a pit. Read the previous chapter, and you'll clearly see why it refers to their situation and NOT to a mother's womb.

 

8 hours ago, MJW said:

You folks obviously know there are many verses referring to the dead as 'sleeping'...

Ephesians 5:14
"Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light"

 

That has nothing to do with physical sleep, nor does it have anything to do with physical death...both are referring to spiritual truths. The lost are "asleep" in their lack of concern for salvation...they are dead in their trespasses and sins. However, Christ will give them light if they will see their situation and turn to the truth of the gospel.

Let me ask you a question. When the Bible says that Christ is the cornerstone of the church, does that mean that he's literally a large stone that was set as the corner of a building?

 

9 hours ago, MJW said:

As a side note, we often hear that the 'dead know nothing'...

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"

People interpret that as if the dead have no consciousness outside of the body. What they do not understand is that the living know nothing either...

 

Jerry has already answered you on this, but I would like to ask you to read the next two verses. They explain what is meant by "the dead knowing nothing"...which Jerry explained.

 

9 hours ago, MJW said:

Job 8:9
(For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)

 

The clue to what this verse means is...in the verse itself. You should have underlined and emboldened the word "because"...because there's the meaning. Due to the fact that our life span on earth is like a shadow, we know "nothing". Read the previous verses and following verses. Job is imploring to seek wisdom from the fathers. 

 

6 hours ago, MJW said:

Fascinating verses about communication in a dream state...

Job 33:14-15
"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not"
"In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed"

and...

Genesis 31:11
"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I"

or...

Genesis 20:3
"But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife"

 

It is fascinating; on that, I can agree. However, those are all Old Testament passages which show how God spoke to men at times back then. 

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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

It can't, because it's referring to the fact that BEFORE Christ ascended to heaven, he first descended into the lower parts of the earth to set free those who were kept in Abraham's bosom.

Right...

In other words, Abraham was this evil tyrant who kept prisoners in his bosom. Jesus had to rescue them.

Lol... this is another interpretation I completely disagree with.

I see many of you don't even bother to see how much twisting of Scripture had to be done to come up with that one.

Seriously... meditate on what you are saying.

BTW...

Everything that is being posted here are merely opinions. We are all entitled to them.

Romans 3:4
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged"

If you folks think Sleep and Dreams have nothing to do with each other, hey that's your business.

I think they do. When the Word of God says the dead sleep, I believe it.

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3 hours ago, John Young said:

As to Psalms 139:15 David is not referring to his formation in the womb but rather to his "substance". His elements in the earth formed by God long before he was conceived that would one day make up his body. Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of themAs to Isaiah 51:1 that is a figurative allusion, but not of a womb, but of a rock quarry.

Such denial I see in this thread. Seems many of you are offended by the Word of God.

To take such a beautiful notion of a baby forming in the womb and dumbing it all down and stripping it of any creative process is telling.

All because the idea of Hell being related to the Womb are offensive to you. Thus a great effort is made to change this into something palatable.

We aren't talking 'elements formed long ago', we are talking about the formation of a Human Being...

WROUGHT, pret. and pp. of work. raut.

1. Worked; formed by work or labor; as wrought iron.

BTW...

The Book is DNA.

Long before Man discovered that DNA was a book in which all of our Members are written, the Bible had it all laid out in specific detail...

mhp-0420.jpg.8e64f2724e5800984b04c078f54870b1.jpg

 

7 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

Sorry, but Jesus didn't say, "And, as he slept..."

So Jesus never said the dead are sleeping?

Uh, OK?

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5 hours ago, DaveW said:

The KJV has absolutely no indication that the account of the rich man and Lazarus was a dream in any way. It is stated as a factual, real event experienced personally by these two men.

These two notions are not mutually exclusive.

Again, the dead are sleeping.

Sleeping implies dreaming.

3 hours ago, John Young said:

Because nowhere in the text does it say its referring figuratively to the womb...

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "There were two compartments in Hell".

See? I can play that game too.

😉

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2 minutes ago, MJW said:

These two notions are not mutually exclusive.

Again, the dead are sleeping.

Sleeping implies dreaming.

Aaaahhhh- actually they are in this case.

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to suggest the rich man nor Lazarus was either asleep or dreaming in the passage.

This a concept that you have entirely imposed onto the passage, for it is not found in the passage.

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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

No it isn't. You may want to do a word study on what all "the lowest parts of the earth" can (and does) refer to. However, I will tell you this...not once does "womb" get mentioned.

John 8:23
"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world"

Oh look. We come from 'beneath'.

I know, I know. I'm not allowed to take that verse literal because it's too uncomfortable to think about right?

So let's here everyone's version of "a better translation would have been".

Or how about "what Jesus really meant to say was".

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I wonder, since you have been back on here at half an hour if you wouldn't mind answering my question in your intro please?

I am interested in the answers there.

Thanks.

2 minutes ago, MJW said:

John 8:23
"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world"

Oh look. We come from 'beneath'.

I know, I know. I'm not allowed to take that verse literal because it's too uncomfortable to think about right?

So let's here everyone's version of "a better translation would have been".

Or how about "what Jesus really meant to say was".

Can I just say, personally your attitude doesn't seem great. You are using language which is not respectful and which has an aggressive tone to it.

Can I suggest that you tone it back and speak with a little more reserve and respect?

 

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      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
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      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

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      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
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      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
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