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Origin of Baptist


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1 hour ago, Alan said:

As was stated previously (please read Jim Alaska's devotion that he referenced too), the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus, "the chief corner-stone," started the church while He was on the earth.

I'll comment on Alaska's devotion tomorrow if I find time... what I have to say isn't quite relevant for this topic here. But I will say I believe(d) the church began at Pentecost but it may actually be before that, since reading comments and the above devotion... i'll have to look into this more. I'd dispute 1 or 2 minor things , but theres some good points.

I know many Christians don't like to accept correction, and I try not to be one of them. Of course many doctrines are set and ive been assured of them, but i'll willingly admit I might be wrong on when the church began... (theres a certain verse of scripture I need to find first)

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No doubt the church that God sees (the body of Christ) started during our Lord's earthly ministry. However, the local church (that we can see) started at Pentecost with the first local church recorded at Jerusalem and once offices were established.

 

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hmmmm....

Mat_16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat_18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I don't see them sounding shocked and confused and asking "What is this church thing you are talking about Lord?" or "what is this church thing that we are tell this to, Lord?"

And what exactly is a church? IFB normally define it something like, "A called out body of baptised believers, organised together to do the work of the Gospel" or something similar to that.

Where do we see something like that in Scripture?

I seem to remember Jesus calling a few people who had been previously baptised by John. And if my memory is correct, they had a treasurer (John 12:6), so they were at least somewhat organised. I think they might have had a guy who was sort of qualified to be their Pastor too......

Of course they are not specifically CALLED a church in the Bible, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it might just be a duck.......

Maybe that's why they didn't question what Jesus meant in those two verses?

Just sayin.......

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But also please consider In Matt 16 the Lord uses the term I will (not I have) but I will. He was obviously speaking future tense and of Pentecost while referencing Peter which He did on other occasions also. I seriously doubt Peter would have been considered our Lord's pastor nor the other disciples pastor in Matt 16. Peter was hardly qualified at the time the Lord said it since he was obviously unregenerate at the time, referred to as satan by the Lord for his ignorance and easily sifted like wheat by satan, a hothead hacking off ears and then later denies the Lord while cursing about it. Oh, don't get me wrong Peter was transformed by the Spirit after all this occurred however and it is recorded in Acts. John chapter 21: 15-19 records our Lord's final instructions to Peter who will become the first pastor of the first local NT church after our Lord's Ascension..

In addition, treasurer is not a church office according to Acts which defines, organizes and lays out how a local church is to be structured and operate. Prior to Pentecost, there were no elders, pastors or deacons identified. Local churches in Scripture all had names whether by house or by town.

The disciples did not question His teaching on much period and when they did, they still didn't understand the Lord's explanations. The Lord knew full well that they didn't, how could they?

Just food for thought

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16 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

I'll comment on Alaska's devotion tomorrow if I find time... what I have to say isn't quite relevant for this topic here. But I will say I believe(d) the church began at Pentecost but it may actually be before that, since reading comments and the above devotion... i'll have to look into this more. I'd dispute 1 or 2 minor things , but theres some good points.

I know many Christians don't like to accept correction, and I try not to be one of them. Of course many doctrines are set and ive been assured of them, but i'll willingly admit I might be wrong on when the church began... (theres a certain verse of scripture I need to find first)

Yes im quoting myself.... I actually decided to start another topic on when the church began as I made notes and is a very long response. Challenging and fun.

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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

At the risk of secluding myself from those whom I hold dear on this forum, and at the risk of being labeled a heretic, I am moved to say (and feel I must say) this...

While I hold firmly to the historical Baptist distinctives, and I will always associate myself as a Baptist...and furthermore, as an Independent Fundamental Baptist, my allegiance isn't to being a Baptist. My allegiance is to Christ.

History, ecumenism, and modernism have all shown (and proven in my opinion) that alignment with a particular group can have unforeseen consequences. To call one's self a Baptist is no longer adequate in today's world. One must clarify what is meant by being a Baptist. Furthermore, one must clarify what one means by being an Independent Baptist. Even further, one must clarify what one means by being an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

In all honesty, I don't see how this can be turned around. Is this the fault of being "a Baptist"? Yes and no.

From what I've seen, men have crept in unawares, and caused both division and derision as to what a Baptist is. I saw on another forum the following..."Are all Baptists Calvinists?"

Huh?

Really?

However, it was a sincere question. The blame lies with those in the past who were ecumenical...those who didn't want to cause trouble...those who didn't want to hurt someone's feelings...those who wanted to be accepted...those who placed ecumenism above doctrine...those who wanted to please men above pleasing God.

Why did Jesus ask that when he returned, would he find faith on earth? It will be such a mishmash of beliefs that one can't distinguish true faith. People will be beholden to particular systems of belief instead of true belief (faith).

So...while I may offend some here by these words...yet, I will continue to personally identify myself as an Independent Baptist...I will know that in my heart, soul, and mind...my identity is with Christ and Christ alone.

I am Baptist by conviction; however, my allegiance is to Christ and Christ alone.

Perhaps I'm in a bad place in my life right now, but I'm tired of having to explain what I mean by being a Baptist. Even in my own little area, people have different ideas of what a Baptist is. I can explain it, and I can try to proclaim it...but at the end of the conversation, they seemingly still see no difference between a true Baptist and what's known as a Bapticostal in my area (Baptist with Pentecostal influence). Bapticostal is an accepted term here. People believe what they want to believe.

Like I said, I don't know how it can be turned around. It's almost to the point that I feel that I need to identify myself as something different.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I want to hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."...not..."Well done, thou good and faithful Baptist."

If I've offended anyone or caused anyone to doubt my beliefs; I apologize. I will always be a Baptist; I just don't know what to do with today's circumstances.

 

 

If I could like this 3 times, I would do so!

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Honestly Wretched, sometimes I wonder...... :laugh:

I am building a house. I have the foundation down, and I am beginning the walls. A bloke walks up and says to me "You will never finish that house", to which I reply "I absolutely Will build my house, and in good time too".

It doesn't have to indicate that the process hasn't begun.

And it ABSOLUTELY doesn't point to Pentecost in particular even if you want to force it to be exclusively future tense.

 

As to who the pastor was.... really?

The pastor of that church was clearly the Lord Jesus Christ.

I never said that treasurer was an office, I said it indicated organisation - which it absolutely does.

And the disciples did question the Lord on several things - but not on this.

None of these is a solid case alone, but all of them together sort of make a point.

 

But I don't really care.

There was certainly a church prior to Pentecost.

And by your reasoning the church didn't start then because it was not named........

Edited by DaveW
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4 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

I was Baptized in a Catholic Church when I was a baby, circumcised the next day. In my 20’s I was Baptized in her Baptist Church.

She is no longer with me and I now just call myself a Christian. Is this act of mine a sin-?

This has nothing to do with the thread, james. Should you seriously desire to discuss this, please feel free to start a thread.

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22 hours ago, weary warrior said:

If I could like this 3 times, I would do so!

Thank you for understanding WW.

17 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

I was Baptized in a Catholic Church when I was a baby, circumcised the next day. In my 20’s I was Baptized in her Baptist Church.

She is no longer with me and I now just call myself a Christian. Is this act of mine a sin-?

If I may ask, what is meant by "she is no longer with me"? 

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15 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

This has nothing to do with the thread, james. Should you seriously desire to discuss this, please feel free to start a thread.

The answer to my question would help me understand the difference between being a Catholic and a Baptist. This would give me a stronger reason to call myself one rather than the other. When it comes to the difference between the two I am a bit lost. I was just looking for some guidance. I don't think my question warrants a new thread just to cover my question. Never the less I will go else where to get my question answered

Edited by jamesduncan
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2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Thank you for understanding WW.

If I may ask, what is meant by "she is no longer with me"? 

I was taught that love making was for the production of children. With this in mind we only had intercourse twice. This act was by my wife’s request. And both were fruitful.

I failed to recognize that a woman’s needs go beyond child bearing and for this reason she went elsewhere to get the attention she needed. My mistake. She divorced me. Now at the age of 67 I have learned my lesson. If you have a woman that loves you, please give her the attention she so desperately needs which goes beyond child bearing.

p.s. She gave me two sons and I am a grandfather of four children

btw She remarried and is a happy camper no thanks to me

Edited by jamesduncan
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23 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

I was Baptized in a Catholic Church when I was a baby, circumcised the next day. In my 20’s I was Baptized in her Baptist Church.

She is no longer with me and I now just call myself a Christian. Is this act of mine a sin-?

 

3 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

The answer to my question would help me understand the difference between being a Catholic and a Baptist. This would give me a stronger reason to call myself one rather than the other. When it comes to the difference between the two I am a bit lost. I was just looking for some guidance. I don't think my question warrants a new thread just to cover my question. Never the less I will go else where to get my question answered

What caused you to want to be baptized in a Baptist Church? What happens to you in the first 2 minutes following death?

Let's not continue a sidebar in this thread, please go to the introduce yourself section and you can answer these questions, ask about the differences between Catholic and Baptist belief, tell us if you are 100% certain that you are going to Heaven (and why you believe you are - or aren't) ---- all in one fell swoop.

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