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The Rapture cannot take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period


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1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Although you have firmly indicated your disagreement with me in this matter, your answer was presented with grace.  I wish, first of all, to commend you and thank you for this. My pleasure.

Yes, I am indicating in my position that all of the prophetic elements in Jeremiah 30:8-9 shall occur "in that day."  Jeremiah 30:7 speaks concerning "the time of Jacob's trouble."  (It is interesting to me that they are called "Jacob" herein, not "Israel.")  Yet Jeremiah 30:7 concludes with the prophetic truth that Israel "shall be saved out of it."  Jeremiah 30:8-9 then reveals what will occur "in that day" when Israel shall be saved out their time of trouble, as follows:

1.  The Lord will break "his yoke" from off Israel's neck, and will burst Israel's bonds.

2.  Stranger (foreign nations) "shall no more serve themselves" out of Israel.

3.  Israel "shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king," whom the Lord "will raise up unto them."

If indeed this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (which, I believe, you would reject), then all of these things can occur immediately together through the absolute authority of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.

I myself hold that Adam and Eve did pass from life unto death immediately upon their disobedience against God, for in that very moment they became spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."  However, that would a discussion for a different thread, yes? Yes, it would be an interesting talk I am sure.

 

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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant f

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion. Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s troub

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On September 4, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Daniel 9:24 KJV
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

so please tell me when did God bring on everlasting righteousness into Jerusalem? And when was the most holy anointed? These have obviously never been fulfilled. Stop spiritualizing away the literal plain meaning of scripture. 

Anyone reading revelation honestly can clearly see the second half of the 7 years described in the following verse:

Revelation 12:5-6 KJV
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

...this seems to correspond to the second half of this verse:

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And please don't try to say that the "he" vs 27 is the Messiah of vs 26..the "he" of vs 27 grammatically is the "prince of the people" 

It astounds one cannot see the fact the prophecy quoted in the Apocalypse corresponds to Osee chapter eleven, the prophecy given Christ will go and return from Egypt in 1260 days or three years.

Since am not a dispensationalist or millennarian, I'll just sit back. Some realized millenarians hold to a three-year or seven-year tribulation, but are the minority. Nevertheless, it does make one chuckle that essentially the same premillennial proponents argue about the timing of a tribulation they cannot concur how long it is in duration. The middle of the tribulation period was espoused by a Baptist in the 1750s. Essentially, each postion is the same dispensational take on premillennarianism.

 

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On 6/4/2016 at 0:20 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

With "his" being the Son of man, which is how Jesus referred to himself, what persons or peoples did Jesus choose?

All the tribes of the earth would include the descendants of Israel. Why are Israelis mourning if they are his elect? 

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in the winds? Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

 

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1 hour ago, MountainChristian said:

With "his" being the Son of man, which is how Jesus referred to himself, what persons or peoples did Jesus choose?

All the tribes of the earth would include the descendants of Israel. Why are Israelis mourning if they are his elect? 

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in the winds? Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

 

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10.

Israel mourns because when they see Him return, they realize they have, to this point, rejected their Messiah. The others mourn because, probably, they finally realize how much trouble they're in. Why 'from heaven? Well, perhaps poetic language-why four winds? Both representing from all over, wherever they may be.   

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6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10.

Israel mourns because when they see Him return, they realize they have, to this point, rejected their Messiah. The others mourn because, probably, they finally realize how much trouble they're in. Why 'from heaven? Well, perhaps poetic language-why four winds? Both representing from all over, wherever they may be.   

That's another verse that confuses me. 

I might start a new thread for this verse, I do not want to hijack brother Jordan's thread.

 

 

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13 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

“Bride” ( “faithfull” (Rev.17: 14) will already be in” her closet” (Joel.2: 16), when the Lord “shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes” (Matt.24: 31) Here,” his Elect” are “called, & chosen” (Rev.17: 14)(KJV1611). "Bride" will already be in Heaven,because “a sheafe of the first fruits”(Lev.23:10) have already brought, but “called, & chosen” will yet be on earth,  because the haruest is come.” (Mark.4:29). It is "the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23)

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14 minutes ago, Konstantin said:

“Bride” ( “faithfull” (Rev.17: 14) will already be in” her closet” (Joel.2: 16), when the Lord “shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes” (Matt.24: 31) Here,” his Elect” are “called, & chosen” (Rev.17: 14)(KJV1611). "Bride" will already be in Heaven,because “a sheafe of the first fruits”(Lev.23:10) have already brought, but “called, & chosen” will yet be on earth,  because the haruest is come.” (Mark.4:29). It is "the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23)

 

 

I would like to disagree.

I too have been taught the rapture is the first fruits but numbers prove this to be wrong.

The rapture is the harvest.

A. All the old Testament age believers who are dead.

B. All the new Testament age believers who are dead.

C. All the new Testament believers currently alive.

A+B+C will out number the Jews saved in the last days. In fact A will out number the Jews of the last days, B will out number the Jews of the days, and even C with the current age falling away we too out number the Jews of the last days. So we see A+B+C is a number so large it is the harvest. 

In old time farming lingo, the Jews will be the gleaning. Numbers so small its what the gleaners will pick up. 

 

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8 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

I would like to disagree.

I too have been taught the rapture is the first fruits but numbers prove this to be wrong.

The rapture is the harvest.

A. All the old Testament age believers who are dead.

B. All the new Testament age believers who are dead.

C. All the new Testament believers currently alive.

A+B+C will out number the Jews saved in the last days. In fact A will out number the Jews of the last days, B will out number the Jews of the days, and even C with the current age falling away we too out number the Jews of the last days. So we see A+B+C is a number so large it is the harvest. 

In old time farming lingo, the Jews will be the gleaning. Numbers so small its what the gleaners will pick up. 

These are letters.

Numbers are here:

 ¶ Thrice in the yeere shall all your men children appeare before the Lord God, the God of Israel.”(Ex.34:23)(KJV)

1.” a sheafe of the first fruits” (Lev.23:10).These are Church of the first borne (Heb.12:23);”faithfull”(Rev.17:14);1Thess.4:15-17

2. “vnto the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23);” two waue-loaues”(lev.23:17).These are “called, & chosen”(Rev.17:14)

3. there will also be “the feast of ingathering at the yeeres end”.(Ex.34:22)(at the and Millennial Kingdom)

These indicate three rapture. One of them will take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

 

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Hmmm. I believe that the position of "first fruits" in relation to "the resurrection of life" has already been taken by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, as per 2 Corinthians 15:20-24 -- "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."  Indeed, I believe that I shall accept God's Holy Word as inspired by God's Holy Spirit on the matter over anyone else's word on the matter.

 

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Let's consider other inverse images pointing to these events.

let the bridegroome goe forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.(Joel.2:16) she is the only one of her mother (Song.6:9) the virgins her companions that followe her, shall be brought vnto thee. (Ps.45:14)

Who is “the bride” and who are “the virgins” here?

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1 hour ago, Konstantin said:

Let's consider other inverse images pointing to these events.

Let the bridegroome goe forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.(Joel.2:16) she is the only one of her mother (Song.6:9) the virgins her companions that followe her, shall be brought vnto thee. (Ps.45:14)

Who is “the bride” and who are “the virgins” here?

In Joel 2:16 "the bridegroom" is any given "bridegroom" among the people and congregation of Israel at that time, and "the bride" is any given "bride" among the people and congregation of Israel at that time.  Nothing figurative about the verse at all.

In Song of Solomon 6:9 the "bridegroom" would be Solomon himself, and the "bride" would be the first wife that he married. 

In Psalm 45:14 we do find quite figurative language, wherein the "bridegroom" would be the King Jesus Christ and wherein the "bride" would be His Queen as represented by the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21:2, 10-27.

By the way, if in Psalm 45 you believe that "the virgins" are figurative of a specific group, then you also need to discern the figurative representation for the "kings' daughters" who were among the King's "honourable women," for "the daughter of Tyre," and for the Queen's "children."

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7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In Psalm 45:14 we do find quite figurative language, wherein the "bridegroom" would be the King Jesus Christ and wherein the "bride" would be His Queen as represented by the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21:2, 10-27.

To the chiefe Musician vpon Shoshannim, for the sonnes of Korah, Maschil: a song of loues. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speake of the things which I haue made, touching the King: my tongue is the penne of a ready writer.

2Thou art fairer then the children of men: grace is powred into thy lips: therfore God hath blessed thee for euer.

3Gird thy sword vpon thy thigh, O most mightie: with thy glory and thy maiestie.

4And in thy maiestie ride prosperously, because of trueth and meekenes, and righteousnesse: and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5Thine arrowes are sharpe in the heart of the Kings enemies; whereby the people fall vnder thee.

6Thy throne (O God) is for euer and euer: the scepter of thy kingdome is a right scepter.

7Thou louest righteousnesse, and hatest wickednesse: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oyle of gladnesse aboue thy fellowes.

8All thy garments smell of myrrhe, and aloes, and cassia: out of the Iuorie palaces, whereby they haue made thee glad.(Ps.45:1-8)

 

and here?

7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In Psalm 45:14 we do find quite figurative language, wherein the "bridegroom" would be the King Jesus Christ and wherein the "bride" would be His Queen as represented by the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21:2, 10-27.

To the chiefe Musician vpon Shoshannim, for the sonnes of Korah, Maschil: a song of loues. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speake of the things which I haue made, touching the King: my tongue is the penne of a ready writer.

2Thou art fairer then the children of men: grace is powred into thy lips: therfore God hath blessed thee for euer.

3Gird thy sword vpon thy thigh, O most mightie: with thy glory and thy maiestie.

4And in thy maiestie ride prosperously, because of trueth and meekenes, and righteousnesse: and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5Thine arrowes are sharpe in the heart of the Kings enemies; whereby the people fall vnder thee.

6Thy throne (O God) is for euer and euer: the scepter of thy kingdome is a right scepter.

7Thou louest righteousnesse, and hatest wickednesse: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oyle of gladnesse aboue thy fellowes.

8All thy garments smell of myrrhe, and aloes, and cassia: out of the Iuorie palaces, whereby they haue made thee glad.(Ps.45:1-8)

 

and here?

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