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The Rapture cannot take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period


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On 6/4/2016 at 0:20 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

This is the most often used passage I see for people to try and prove that the rapture takes place after the 7 years of tribulation. However this is impossible...

You are right Jordan.

Because there is no 7 year tribulation mentioned in the scriptures. 

Just men 'translating' ideas and verses into man made doctrines. 

And maybe people should stop quoting Rhonda - surely it takes way too much data from the system?

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant f

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion. Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s troub

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1 minute ago, Genevanpreacher said:

You are right Jordan.

Because there is no 7 year tribulation mentioned in the scriptures. 

Just men 'translating' ideas and verses into man made doctrines. 

The prophecy of Daniels 70th week says you are wrong.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

The prophecy of Daniels 70th week says you are wrong.

No.

Men who teach dispensationalism tell you I am wrong.

The supposed last week of Daniel 9 is nowhere called the 7 year tribulation.

And no, the time of Jacob's trouble is not either, as that is the time of Israels trouble during Nebuchadnezzars rule.

It's all in the past.

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Daniel 9:24 KJV
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

so please tell me when did God bring on everlasting righteousness into Jerusalem? And when was the most holy anointed? These have obviously never been fulfilled. Stop spiritualizing away the literal plain meaning of scripture. 

Anyone reading revelation honestly can clearly see the second half of the 7 years described in the following verse:

Revelation 12:5-6 KJV
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

...this seems to correspond to the second half of this verse:

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And please don't try to say that the "he" vs 27 is the Messiah of vs 26..the "he" of vs 27 grammatically is the "prince of the people" 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

 

Daniel 9:24 KJV
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

so please tell me when did God bring on everlasting righteousness into Jerusalem? And when was the most holy anointed? These have obviously never been fulfilled. Stop spiritualizing away the literal plain meaning of scripture. 

Anyone reading revelation honestly can clearly see the second half of the 7 years described in the following verse:

Revelation 12:5-6 KJV
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

...this seems to correspond to the second half of this verse:

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And please don't try to say that the "he" vs 27 is the Messiah of vs 26..the "he" of vs 27 grammatically is the "prince of the people"

 

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week” (Dan.9:27) “hee went foorth conquering, and to conquere”.(Rev.6:2)

He's not the Messiah. He is the one who copies the Messiah

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8 hours ago, Konstantin said:

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week” (Dan.9:27) “hee went foorth conquering, and to conquere”.(Rev.6:2)

 

 

He's not the Messiah. He is the one who copies the Messiah

 

 

That's what I said..

11 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

No.

Men who teach dispensationalism tell you I am wrong.

The supposed last week of Daniel 9 is nowhere called the 7 year tribulation.

And no, the time of Jacob's trouble is not either, as that is the time of Israels trouble during Nebuchadnezzars rule.

It's all in the past.

I would also like others to see another false statement by Genevan Preacher. He stated that Jacobs Trouble refers to Israel under Nebuchadnezzar. This is a false statement:

Jeremiah 30:7-9 KJV
[7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

When did God raise up David to be Israels King? No This period of time is not "past".

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59 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

That's what I said..

I would also like others to see another false statement by Genevan Preacher. He stated that Jacobs Trouble refers to Israel under Nebuchadnezzar. This is a false statement:

Jeremiah 30:7-9 KJV
[7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

When did God raise up David to be Israels King? No This period of time is not "past".

I agree that verse nine IS the future, but disagree that verses 7-8 are, as it is speaking about their captivity under Nebby, and their release from him.

No false statement, that's what I believe, and I'm just dividing the verses aright.

Twisted doctrine comes from dividing the verses to match a 'teaching'.

Now read Jeremiah 30:10 and see.

That one verse is conveniently left out when people want their verses to match their 'teaching'.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I agree that verse nine IS the future, but disagree that verses 7-8 are, as it is speaking about their captivity under Nebby, and their release from him.

No false statement, that's what I believe, and I'm just dividing the verses aright.

Twisted doctrine comes from dividing the verses to match a 'teaching'.

Now read Jeremiah 30:10 and see.

That one verse is conveniently left out when people want their verses to match their 'teaching'.

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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53 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

Good to see you aren't.

Answers to number -

1. Doesn't change a thing. It still was like that til the Lord took his vengence upon the surrounding nations after Ol' Nebby lost'em back to the land of Israel and destroyed a lot of nations that made fun of the nation of Israel. 

2. No, and he still has not, but will in the form of Jesus Christ the son of David, when he rules all eternity.

3. Doesn't change a thing either, as the time he was talking was after Israel returned home after God's judgement upon Ol' Nebby. Wherein the Lord destroyed Ol' Nebby with all the other nations for mocking his judgement upon his people Israel by letting Nebby take them into captivity.

4. (Since you didn't add one, I took the liberty.) Since when does a verse matter the slightest when it 'sounds' like another? If it ain't the same subject, as in your examples, it ain't. 

 

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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Good to see you aren't.

Answers to number -

1. Doesn't change a thing. It still was like that til the Lord took his vengence upon the surrounding nations after Ol' Nebby lost'em back to the land of Israel and destroyed a lot of nations that made fun of the nation of Israel. 

2. No, and he still has not, but will in the form of Jesus Christ the son of David, when he rules all eternity.

3. Doesn't change a thing either, as the time he was talking was after Israel returned home after God's judgement upon Ol' Nebby. Wherein the Lord destroyed Ol' Nebby with all the other nations for mocking his judgement upon his people Israel by letting Nebby take them into captivity.

4. (Since you didn't add one, I took the liberty.) Since when does a verse matter the slightest when it 'sounds' like another? If it ain't the same subject, as in your examples, it ain't. 

 

1.  Jeremiah 30:8 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that "strangers shall NO MORE serve themselves of him [of Israel]."  If strangers are indeed still "serving themselves" of Israel unto this very day, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment? 

2.  Jeremiah 30:8-9 is all one grammatical sentence; therefore, if any part of it has not yet been fulfilled, then the whole of the prophecy still requires a future, precise fulfillment.

3.  Jeremiah 30:10 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that Israel "shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."  If Israel is indeed still not at rest and quiet and are still being made afraid by various nations around them, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong again?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment?

4.  Jeremiah 30:7 describes "the time of Jacob's trouble" as a day that is so great that no other is like unto its greatness of trouble.  In Matthew 24:21 our Lord Jesus Christ prophecies of so great a tribulation that there was never one like it "since the beginning of the world," nor would there ever be a future one like it.  In Mark 13:19 (which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21) our Lord Jesus prophecies of days of so great affliction that there were never ones like it "from the beginning of the creation," nor would there ever be future ones like it.  Now, by definition it is impossible for there to more than one time-period of the greatest trouble, tribulation, affliction that has ever existed in the world's existence.  Thus either Jeremiah 30:7 and our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 were speaking of the same greatest time-period of trouble, tribulation, affliction; or else Jeremiah 30:7 or our Lord Jesus Christ made a mistake.

By the way, to claim that it does not matter if a Biblical prophecy is not fulfilled precisely is simply to deny the precise truthfulness of a Holy Spirit inspired prophecy.  As for myself, I declare -- GOD FORBID!

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39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  Jeremiah 30:8 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that "strangers shall NO MORE serve themselves of him [of Israel]."  If strangers are indeed still "serving themselves" of Israel unto this very day, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment? 

2.  Jeremiah 30:8-9 is all one grammatical sentence; therefore, if any part of it has not yet been fulfilled, then the whole of the prophecy still requires a future, precise fulfillment.

3.  Jeremiah 30:10 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that Israel "shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."  If Israel is indeed still not at rest and quiet and are still being made afraid by various nations around them, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong again?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment?

4.  Jeremiah 30:7 describes "the time of Jacob's trouble" as a day that is so great that no other is like unto its greatness of trouble.  In Matthew 24:21 our Lord Jesus Christ prophecies of so great a tribulation that there was never one like it "since the beginning of the world," nor would there ever be a future one like it.  In Mark 13:19 (which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21) our Lord Jesus prophecies of days of so great affliction that there were never ones like it "from the beginning of the creation," nor would there ever be future ones like it.  Now, by definition it is impossible for there to more than one time-period of the greatest trouble, tribulation, affliction that has ever existed in the world's existence.  Thus either Jeremiah 30:7 and our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 were speaking of the same greatest time-period of trouble, tribulation, affliction; or else Jeremiah 30:7 or our Lord Jesus Christ made a mistake.

By the way, to claim that it does not matter if a Biblical prophecy is not fulfilled precisely is simply to deny the precise truthfulness of a Holy Spirit inspired prophecy.  As for myself, I declare -- GOD FORBID!

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

3. Once again - it does not give a specific time for this event to last. So it must be for that generation to see for themselves. Remember how the scriptures say to prove whether a prophet was a true prophet?

4. I am sorry, but they are two different events. The one in the NT is ibviously the worst one.

5. I have no idea why you said your last paragraph. Nobody has stated such.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

3. Once again - it does not give a specific time for this event to last. So it must be for that generation to see for themselves. Remember how the scriptures say to prove whether a prophet was a true prophet?

4. I am sorry, but they are two different events. The one in the NT is ibviously the worst one.

5. I have no idea why you said your last paragraph. Nobody has stated such.

It's pretty interesting to me how you are completely blind to the connection between God raising David to be their ruler and the other events surrounding that. It's all connected, but your anti Dispensational bias is hindering you from seeing it. 

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

The Scripture DOES say "NO MORE," which by definition means "not any more at all into the future."

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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35 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The Scripture DOES say "NO MORE," which by definition means "not any more at all into the future."

From what I have observed Genevan Preacher isn't really big on grammar or literal definitions of words.

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Why do people assume that some things in the OT, about Israel as a nation of people, are still future from now? If a prophet spoke something, back then, why push it even past us?

In Jeremiah 31 there is plenty to show he was speaking to their own 'close' future, not ours.

Look for the answer to a prophecy 'for them' during their future. Not ours.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Why do people assume that some things in the OT, about Israel as a nation of people, are still future from now? If a prophet spoke something, back then, why push it even past us?

In Jeremiah 31 there is plenty to show he was speaking to their own 'close' future, not ours.

Look for the answer to a prophecy 'for them' during their future. Not ours

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Acts 8:32-35 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 in his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Jude 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Revelation 19:11-15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 14:4-5 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

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3 hours ago, John Young said:

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

The ceremonial law is not enforced until the end of Millennial Kingdom, “till all be fulfilled”(Mat.5:18)

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19 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

Except that the singular sentence of Jeremiah 30:8-9 begins with the statement, "For it shall come to pass in that day."  As such, this statement grammatically encompasses the entirety of this singular sentence; and as such, all of the events that are prophesied in this singular sentence must all occur "in that day," that is -- in the same singular time-period.  Yet even you acknowledge that the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 have not been fulfilled even unto this very day.

Even so, if the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:8 were fulfilled "in that day," the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 were not fulfilled "in that day," then the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given.  If indeed the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given, then according to the truth of Deuteronomy 18:22 (which is the very verse that you quoted above), the Jeremiah 30:8-9 is a falsehood and not from the Lord.

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12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Except that the singular sentence of Jeremiah 30:8-9 begins with the statement, "For it shall come to pass in that day."  As such, this statement grammatically encompasses the entirety of this singular sentence; and as such, all of the events that are prophesied in this singular sentence must all occur "in that day," that is -- in the same singular time-period.  Yet even you acknowledge that the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 have not been fulfilled even unto this very day.

Even so, if the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:8 were fulfilled "in that day," the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 were not fulfilled "in that day," then the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given.  If indeed the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given, then according to the truth of Deuteronomy 18:22 (which is the very verse that you quoted above), the Jeremiah 30:8-9 is a falsehood and not from the Lord.

I do disagree with your premise that the phrase "For it shall come to pass in that day" has anything to do with the 'timing' of "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

What will happen in that day is - "I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds".

THEN in later time  - "they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

You will notice the colon at the end of verse 8 does not exist in the 1611 original printing, but a period, thus cancelling out your 'singular sentence' idea.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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18 hours ago, John Young said:

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

“¶ And it shall come to passe that euery one that is left of all the nations which came against Ierusalem, shall euen goe vp from yeere to yeere to worship the King the Lord of hostes, and to keepe the feast of Tabernacles.”(Zech.14:16)

It will be the feast of Tabernacles in the Millennium.

 Two other feasts of the ceremonial law will already be in the past.

 These three feasts indicate three raptures.

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16 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I do disagree with your premise that the phrase "For it shall come to pass in that day" has anything to do with the 'timing' of "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

What will happen in that day is - "I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds".

THEN in later time  - "they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

You will notice the colon at the end of verse 8 does not exist in the 1611 original printing, but a period, thus cancelling out your 'singular sentence' idea.

Indeed, you are correct that the King James translation of 1611 had a period at the end of Jeremiah 30:8.  However, the adversative conjunction "but" at the beginning of Jeremiah 30:9 still grammatically indicates that Jeremiah 30:9 is directly connected to Jeremiah 30:8.  Furthermore, within the passage there is only one (not two) timing indicators, that being the phrase "in that day."  The other timing indicator that you added ("THEN in later time") is just that -- something that you yourself added to the Scriptures.  It is NOT actually found anywhere therein.  Yes, I know -- You referenced the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 as the evidence for this addition on your part.  However, Jeremiah 30:8 also uses the same future tense verbs -- "For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."  Thus the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 do NOT move the events of that verse anywhere beyond the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:8.  "That day" was future to Jeremiah's proclamation of the Lord's prophetic utterance; and all of the events mentioned in that prophetic utterance "shall come to pass in that day" (from the perspective of Jeremiah).  It is all future to Jeremiah, but it all would occur in the same period of time.  Adding a time indicator that is not present in the Scriptural text is not appropriate in rightly dividing God's Holy Word of truth.  Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day."

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7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, you are correct that the King James translation of 1611 had a period at the end of Jeremiah 30:8.  However, the adversative conjunction "but" at the beginning of Jeremiah 30:9 still grammatically indicates that Jeremiah 30:9 is directly connected to Jeremiah 30:8.  Furthermore, within the passage there is only one (not two) timing indicators, that being the phrase "in that day."  The other timing indicator that you added ("THEN in later time") is just that -- something that you yourself added to the Scriptures.  It is NOT actually found anywhere therein.  Yes, I know -- You referenced the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 as the evidence for this addition on your part.  However, Jeremiah 30:8 also uses the same future tense verbs -- "For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."  Thus the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 do NOT move the events of that verse anywhere beyond the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:8.  "That day" was future to Jeremiah's proclamation of the Lord's prophetic utterance; and all of the events mentioned in that prophetic utterance "shall come to pass in that day" (from the perspective of Jeremiah).  It is all future to Jeremiah, but it all would occur in the same period of time.  Adding a time indicator that is not present in the Scriptural text is not appropriate in rightly dividing God's Holy Word of truth.  Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day."

I understand. I disagree of course, but I do understand where you are coming from.

So in the verse where it says "and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him." - are you saying that - 'in that day' - this occurs also? It seems to me that that is an impossibility for such a thing to occur in the same timeline as the rest. Thus making it also a 'future' thing in that verse. Because it would take time for them to not 'serve themselves of him'.

In your comment here - "Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day." - I totally disagree as to your 'boundaries'. Yes precision matters, and that is why I state what I do, because it is, to me, very obvious that there are different times here. It goes with the same thing with the Lord telling Adam that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and saying that both things 'happen' on the same day, which they didn't. Obviously I don't believe in the 'spirit death' that most teach, so I see two times here - the day he ate, and later in time the day he died. It's the same with this set of verses - there are things that happen 'in that day' and there are things that happen as a result of that day, later.

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I understand. I disagree of course, but I do understand where you are coming from.

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Although you have firmly indicated your disagreement with me in this matter, your answer was presented with grace.  I wish, first of all, to commend you and thank you for this.

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

So in the verse where it says "and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him." - are you saying that - 'in that day' - this occurs also? It seems to me that that is an impossibility for such a thing to occur in the same timeline as the rest. Thus making it also a 'future' thing in that verse. Because it would take time for them to not 'serve themselves of him'

Yes, I am indicating in my position that all of the prophetic elements in Jeremiah 30:8-9 shall occur "in that day."  Jeremiah 30:7 speaks concerning "the time of Jacob's trouble."  (It is interesting to me that they are called "Jacob" herein, not "Israel.")  Yet Jeremiah 30:7 concludes with the prophetic truth that Israel "shall be saved out of it."  Jeremiah 30:8-9 then reveals what will occur "in that day" when Israel shall be saved out their time of trouble, as follows:

1.  The Lord will break "his yoke" from off Israel's neck, and will burst Israel's bonds.

2.  Stranger (foreign nations) "shall no more serve themselves" out of Israel.

3.  Israel "shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king," whom the Lord "will raise up unto them."

If indeed this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (which, I believe, you would reject), then all of these things can occur immediately together through the absolute authority of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

In your comment here - "Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day." - I totally disagree as to your 'boundaries'. Yes precision matters, and that is why I state what I do, because it is, to me, very obvious that there are different times here. It goes with the same thing with the Lord telling Adam that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and saying that both things 'happen' on the same day, which they didn't. Obviously I don't believe in the 'spirit death' that most teach, so I see two times here - the day he ate, and later in time the day he died. It's the same with this set of verses - there are things that happen 'in that day' and there are things that happen as a result of that day, later.

I myself hold that Adam and Eve did pass from life unto death immediately upon their disobedience against God, for in that very moment they became spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."  However, that would a discussion for a different thread, yes?

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