Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted September 25, 2016 Members Share Posted September 25, 2016 (edited) On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Your post on "all" vs "many" . . . . Well, Brother Young, The opening six words of your above posting appear to reveal that you did NOT understand AT ALL the point of my presentation; for there is NOT a SINGLE word in my entire presentation that places the definition and application of the word "all" in contrast or conflict with the definition and application of the word "many" (as is indicated by your use of the abbreviation "vs"). Throughout my entire presentation the word "all" retains its meaning of "all human individuals since Adam." There is NOT a SINGLE time wherein I indicate that the word "all" means anything different than this. Rather, the entire presentation is intended as a contextual study concerning the meaning and application of the word "MANY" in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19, wherein I indicate from the context that in some cases the word "MANY" is used as a reference and equivalent to "all" and in other cases is used as a reference to "a large number among all." On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Your post on "all" vs "many" seems similar to the Calvinist method when they explain into the text their external doctrine on how "all" and "whosoever" actually just mean "the elect". Certainly, Calvinists do often attempt to redefine the word "all" in some contexts as referring only unto some among all. However, since (as I have stated above) there is NOT a SINGLE time in my above presentation wherein I indicate that the word "all" means anything less than all human individuals since Adam at any age of years throughout any time of history in any place of the world, your comparison of my posting unto the common practice of Calvinists seems completely invalid. (If you disagree, you can certainly take the opportunity to quote the exact place of my presentation wherein I did otherwise.) On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: So you can see how I am very reluctant to accept that way of thinking about this passage. Well, as I have just indicated, your expressed bias against my presentation is invalid, since it is based upon your invalid comparison of my presentation with the common practice of Calvinists, which is itself invalid because it is based upon a false understanding of my presentation. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: I'm not saying your study is wrong in most instance of determining the differences in the "all" and "many" but it seems that much study has gone into the wrong thing of trying to compartmentalize "many" to really mean "all" and "all" just really means "many". Well, although you are NOT directly saying that my presentation is wrong, you ARE saying that you will not give it an honest, contextual consideration because you are already biased against it. Indeed, "much study" should ALWAYS go into understanding any given word of Scripture within its particular grammatical and contextual location. This is the very nature of "jot and tittle" precision in Bible study for "rightly dividing" God's Word of truth. By the way, you are correct that my presentation above does attempt to demonstrate contextually that in some of the cases in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19, the word "many" is indeed a reference unto "the all." However, as I have already indicated, there is NOT a SINGLE occasion in my presentation above wherein I attempt to demonstrate that the word "all" "just really means 'many'," as you incorrectly claim. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: I do not think contextualizing the words to in that way helps in actually understanding the passage. However, If we simply let the words be what they truly mean in the simplicity of the text then we can glean the truth much better. So then, you do NOT actually believe in precise grammatical and contextual Bible study? If you do believe in it, then "contextualizing the words in that way" is exactly what must be done for precise grammatical and contextual Bible study. Furthermore, considering what a word "truly means in the simplicity of the text" is exactly what precise grammatical and contextual Bible study does. By the way, the word "many" by its very definition is NOT a technical term, but is a general term. Therefore, the word "many" must ALWAYS be defined and applied precisely in accord with its context. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Paul is dealing with all men in the world and not only certain groups or groupings. So when he uses all he means "all men in the world" and uses "all" to mean all who have been or ever will be in the world with death and sin. When he says "many" he means "many of those men in the world". And I believe that is why Paul used each word in the way that he did. I do not see any other group in the passage besides these. First, I am in full agreement (as I have previously noted) that when the apostle employs the word "all" in the passage, he is referring unto all human individuals since Adam at any age of years throughout any time of history in any place of the world. However, you are simply wrong when you seem to indicate with your opening statement that the apostle is dealing only "with all men in the world and not only certain groups or groupings." Actually, the apostle is dealing with one category which are "the all men" and with another category which are "the many among the all." Indeed, you yourself indicate your recognition of this in your closing statements. First, you indicate that "when he says 'many,' he means 'many of those men in the world'." which means that you do recognize two groupings in this passage, that is -- the grouping of "the all" and the grouping of "the many." Second, you indicate that you "do not see any other group in the passage beside these." Now, the word "these" which you use in your statement is a plural word, thus indicating your recognition of more than one "group" in the passage. So then, how does this conflict with my presentation above? I myself also believe that there are two "groups" in the passage, and "do not see any other group in the passage beside these" two. First, I see the group of "the all," which I contend is ALWAYS referenced with the word "all" and is sometimes ALSO referenced with the word "many." Second, I see the group of "the many from among the all," which I contend is sometimes referenced with the word "many," but NEVER with the word "all." On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: In the passage Paul is dealing with two sets of two. Death and Life, and Sin and Righteousness. This is simply incorrect. In this passage the apostle Paul is dealing with MORE than only two contrasting comparisons. These contrasting comparisons begin in Romans 5:15, and they include at least the following: 1a. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift." - "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift." 1b. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence of one " set in a comparison of contrast with "the grace of God, and the gift by grace." - "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." 2a. In Romans 5:16 we find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification." - "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." 3. In Romans 5:17 we find "death" set in a comparison of contrast with "life" - "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." 2b. In Romans 5:18 we again find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification of life." - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." 4. In Romans 5:19 we find "many made sinners" set in a comparison of contrast with "many made righteous." - "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." It is quite interesting to me that you seem completely to ignore the "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage, which is actually presented in two separate verses of the passage. I have to wonder WHY you ignore this apparently important "set" in the passage. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: In the passage Paul is dealing with two sets of two. Death and Life, and Sin and Righteousness. Death and Sin are currently in the physical world because of Adam's Transgression. Life and Righteousness are in the Spirit of Christ and is from God in Heaven. This passage in particular is dealing with the effects of death and sin in the physical world and how, by God's grace, we all can receive life and righteousness in the world. Indeed, by ignoring the apparently important "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage (which is also a very significant theme in the entire first five chapters of Romans), you find it quite easy to conclude that this passage is all about "the physical world" and physical death. However, throughout the epistle of Romans the matters of condemnation and justification are NOT physical matters, but are SPIRITUAL matters. Not only does this passage teach that "death and sin" are in the world because of Adam's first disobedience, but also it teaches that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation" by Adam's first disobedience. Furthermore, this passage not only teaches the existence of sin in the world because of Adam's first disobedience, but also it teaches that "many were MADE SINNERS" by Adam's first disobedience. Why do you continue to ignore the PRECISE statements of Romans 5:18-19? On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: ALL are condemned to Get Death because of Adam. (Adam condemns the flesh to death)MANY were Made Sinners because of Adam. (our sin, because of his example and the example of all flesh, condemns the soul, kills the spirit)ALL can Get Life because of Christ. (Christ gives life to all)MANY Are Made Righteous because of Christ. (Christ's righteousness quickens the spirit back to life and keeps the soul) Yet you do try to handle the truths of Romans 5:18-19, just through a distortion of them. Indeed, the passage does indicate that ALL are already under "judgment to condemnation;" but nowhere does the passage indicate that all are condemned "to get death." That is your insertion. Furthermore, the passage does NOT say that "judgment came [past tense] upon all men to condemnation" BECAUSE OF Adam himself. Rather, the passage precisely says that this occurred "BY the OFFENCE of one [ADAM]." It was not because of Adam himself. Rather, it was BY ADAM'S OFFENSE. Finally, it is utterly incorrect according to the passage to say that "our sin . . . condemns the soul." In both verses wherein the truth of "judgment unto condemnation" is mention, those being Romans 5:16 & Romans 5:18, our sin is NOT mentioned AT ALL. Rather, in both verses the cause for the "judgment unto condemnation" upon all men is "BY ONE," that is -- "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE." According to both of these verses, we ALL are judged unto condemnation before God BY ADAM'S ONE OFFENSE, not at all by our sin; and in both of these verses that "judgment unto condemnation" "came upon ALL men" in the past tense. Again, Romans 5:19 does indeed indicate that "many were made sinners." However, again this verse does NOT say that "many were made sinners" BECAUSE OF Adam himself, or because of Adam's example. Rather, this verse precisely says that "many were made sinners" "BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE." Again, the cause by which "many were made sinners" is not by their own sin. In fact, Romans 5:19 does NOT mention AT ALL the sin of "the many." Rather, the cause by which "many were made sinners" is precisely "BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE." So then, now we might understand why you continue to ignore the PRECISE statements of Romans 5:18-19 - because those PRECISE statements defeat you position concerning the condition of spiritual innocence. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Therefor, I am still of the contention that many does not mean all. The only way for you to legitimately handle this matter is to consider each individual usage of the word "many" in the passage. You have not and did not do this. Therefore, you have not done anything to counteract my previous presentation, wherein I did do this. Rather, you simply said that you do "not think contextualizing the words in that way helps in actually understanding the passage;" and thereby ignored the need to do any such consideration. Furthermore, you then made the assumption that when the apostle Paul "says 'many' he means 'many of those men in the world'," without legitimately considering any other possibility. Such is NOT Bible study. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Particularly, that while they are all made subject to death by Adam some still have never lived long enough to sin to the condemnation of the soul. Yet since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation," your denial of condemnation upon some is a direct contradiction of the PRECISE statement in Scripture. Furthermore, since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that this "judgment to condemnation" came "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE," your reference unto some having "never lived long enough to sin" is irrelevant to the Biblical truth, since their sin is not the cause of the "judgment to condemnation" anyway. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: So too, because many sinned because of Adam's example (many because not all will have a chance to sin), so too, many are made righteous because of Christ (many because not all will accept His Righteousness). Not all sinned like Adam but all will die because of Adam. All can live again because of Christ but not all will be made righteous. Not all broke the law in this life whereby sin is measured to the soul but all die physically because of sin.Romans 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Yet the passage does NOT say a single word about Adam's EXAMPLE, does it? Romans 5:18-19 is the exactly relevant quotation for this discussion. Now, break just those two sentences down into their precise grammatical construction without changing any words, and you will understand the truth. Edited September 26, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle spelling & grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted September 27, 2016 Author Members Share Posted September 27, 2016 (edited) On 9/23/2016 at 11:23 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said: 1. Romans 5:19 does NOT teach that "many were made sinners" "by choice," as you say. Rather, Romans 5:19 teaches that "many were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." So then, which is the source of truth - your position, or the Biblical statement? I could ask the same question but you and I both know that we are trying to find the truth in the text. Your contention is that "All are sinners before birth" and that is what you are reading into the passage without a supporting text showing how Adam's offence made them sinners. Adam's offence condemned them al but did not automatically make any of them sinners. I say "many were made sinners" by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did (Job 31:33). That is what I see the text saying. Many does not mean all, Were does not mean are, made does not mean original state, Sinners is a verb not a noun. Many means many not all. Were here means they were one thing and became something, Made means their was a process to it getting the finished product. Sinners is something that they do against God. Because of Adam's offence many were made sinners because they did as Adam did. 2. The fact is that there is not a single verse in all of Scripture which joins the verb "become" (or one of its cognates) with the word "sinners," no, not even one. As such, God's Word does NOT say anything about "becoming" sinners. Rather, in Romans 5:19 God's Word speaks about "being made" sinners by the disobedience of one human individual, Adam. The fact is that God's Word DOES say that "many were made sinners" because of Adam. (By the way, I am not ignoring the passage which you presented in support of your statement, that is -- Romans 7:4-11. However, I find that this passage, which you have presented in support of your statements about individuals "becoming" sinners, does not even once employ either the word "sinner" or "sinners." So then, I wonder how it can say what you claim when it does not even use your terminology. On the other, Romans 5:19 DOES use the word "sinners," and DOES speak about how "many were made sinners." Precision in Bible study requires that we begin with the precise terminology of God's Word in its precise grammatical and contextual construction.) Marriage to the law makes one a law keeper or a law breaker. By the law determination is made as to wither or not one is a sinner. Particularly God imputes the sin based on one's knowledge of that law. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. That is why we are married to Christ the law is dead in the regard of determining justification to life or condemnation to death. Particularly because when we are married to the law our righteousness is determined to life or death but in Christ His righteousness is determined to life. Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: On 9/25/2016 at 2:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: So then, you do NOT actually believe in precise grammatical and contextual Bible study? I actually do. By the way, the word "many" by its very definition is NOT a technical term, but is a general term. Therefore, the word "many" must ALWAYS be defined and applied precisely in accord with its context. So then, how does this conflict with my presentation above? I myself also believe that there are two "groups" in the passage, and "do not see any other group in the passage beside these" two. First, I see the group of "the all," which I contend is ALWAYS referenced with the word "all" and is sometimes ALSO referenced with the word "many." Second, I see the group of "the many from among the all," which I contend is sometimes referenced with the word "many," but NEVER with the word "all." There is only one main group of individuals by which the "all" and "many" are determined. Some things in the passage affected all of them and some things only affected many of them but it is always in reverence to all men in the world. In this passage the apostle Paul is dealing with MORE than only two contrasting comparisons. I agree but it is clear that only two end results can be had. Death because of sin or Life Because of Righteousness. All contrasting comparisons are related to these two ends. It is quite interesting to me that you seem completely to ignore the "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage, which is actually presented in two separate verses of the passage. I have to wonder WHY you ignore this apparently important "set" in the passage. I actually don't ignore it. God is the one who condemns and justifies. That is why I said: "In the passage Paul is dealing with two sets of two. Death and Life, and Sin and Righteousness. Death and Sin are currently in the physical world because of Adam's Transgression. Life and Righteousness are in the Spirit of Christ and is from God in Heaven. This passage in particular is dealing with the effects of death and sin in the physical world and how, by God's grace, we all can receive life and righteousness in the world." God is the one who either condemns or justifies all men to life or death and he determines that based on wither or not they are righteous. While I did not deal with it directly its plain that it was not ignored. ....you find it quite easy to conclude that this passage is all about "the physical world" and physical death. However, throughout the epistle of Romans the matters of condemnation and justification are NOT physical matters, but are SPIRITUAL matters. Sin is a spiritual matter however this particular section dealing with sin "in the world" is showing the effects of sin on the physical. Adam and Christ are both physical people by whom spiritual things are propagated into the material world.1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Indeed, the passage does indicate that ALL are already under "judgment to condemnation;" but nowhere does the passage indicate that all are condemned "to get death." That is your insertion. They are not condemned to nothing. The context makes it clear that they are condemned to die because of sin. Justified to life or condemned to death. Sentence to be carried out at the judgement. Yet since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation," your denial of condemnation upon some is a direct contradiction of the PRECISE statement in Scripture. Furthermore, since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that this "judgment to condemnation" came "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE," your reference unto some having "never lived long enough to sin" is irrelevant to the Biblical truth, since their sin is not the cause of the "judgment to condemnation" anyway. What I mean is that while all are condemned there is a means by which not all will take part in that condemnation and that God determines it on account of an individual's righteousness. While all are condemned to die not all will. All can be justified in the similar fashion as the condemnation. Romans 5:18-19 is the exactly relevant quotation for this discussion. Now, break just those two sentences down into their precise grammatical construction without changing any words, and you will understand the truth. I agree. Verse 13 makes it clear that death, the physical consequence of sin, is automatically on all men but that sin is not. Sin is put on the man at the time of knowledge. Romans makes it clear that they know to do right but don't do it and therefor they are condemned. This passage shows how Adam's sin caused death to all things and made many sinners. It also shows that Life comes to all in Christ and makes many righteous. Righteousness is what God is looking for if a man breaks the law he is condemned. If he keeps it then he shows that he is righteous. However, Romans shows that no one can obtain it by the law and needs the righteousness of Christ. Death is the physical attribute that all receive from Adam and is automatically received but sin is the spiritual attribute that is imputed to the soul of each individual. While the body dies in Adam the Soul dies at the time of sin. More later..... Edited September 27, 2016 by John Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted September 27, 2016 Members Share Posted September 27, 2016 (edited) Brother Young, On 8/26/2016 at 5:55 AM, John Young said: The passage does not say we are condemned as sinners by Adam's sin but rather we are condemned to be corrupted and to die because of Adam's sin. I take the position that many are made sinners the same way many are made saints. By choice after we are led. The fact is the bible never says all start out sinners because of Adam but that all become sinners. You say - "The passage does not say we are condemned as sinners by Adam's sin . . . ." Yet Romans 5:18 says - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." And Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." You say - ". . . That many are made sinners the same way many are made saints. By choice . . . ." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your phrase, "many are made sinners," you use the present tense verb "are;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the past tense verb "were." These two tenses of verb do not mean the same thing. Furthermore, you use the preposition "by" in order to communicate the prepositional phrase, "by choice;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by" in order to communicate the prepositional phrase, "by one man's disobedience." These two prepositional phrases "by choice" and "by one man's disobedience" do not mean the same thing. You say - "The fact is the bible never says all start out sinners because of Adam but that all become sinners." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your phrase, "that all become sinners," you use the verb "become;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the usage of the verb "were made." Now, the verb "become" is a present tense, active verb, indicating that the one's doing the activity of the verb is the subject, the "many" themselves; however, the verb "were made" is a past tense, passive verb, indicating that the activity of the verb was done upon or unto the subject, upon or unto the "many." These two verbs do not mean the same thing. On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: MANY were Made Sinners because of Adam. (our sin, because of his example and the example of all flesh, condemns the soul, kills the spirit) You say - "MANY were Made Sinners because of Adam." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Yet again brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the preposition, "because of;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by." Now, both prepositions can be used to communicate cause; however, the preposition "by" communicates the specific cause and means by which. Furthermore, in your prepositional phrase, "because of Adam," the object of your prepositional phrase is "Adam" himself; however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that the object of the prepositional phrase would be Adam's "disobedience." In your statement you present "Adam" himself as the cause; however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that Adam's "disobedience" itself is the cause. These two prepositional phrases do not mean the same thing. You say - "Our sin, because of his example and the example of all flesh, condemns the soul, kills the spirit." Yet Romans 5:18 says - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." Yet again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:18 actually says. In your statement you indicate that "our sin . . . condemns the soul;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired that "judgment came upon all man to condemnation" "by the offence of one," that is -- Adam. In your statement you use the present tense verb "condemns;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired the past tense verb "came" in the phrase "judgment came upon all men to condemnation." Furthermore, in your statement you indicate that the condition of condemnation is by "our sin;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired that this condition of "judgment . . . to condemnation" came (past tense) "by the offence of one." In your statement you present "our sin" as the cause; however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit presents "the offence of one [Adam]" as the cause. These two teachings do not mean the same thing. On 9/23/2016 at 2:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: 1. Romans 5:19 does NOT teach that "many were made sinners" "by choice," as you say. Rather, Romans 5:19 teaches that "many were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." So then, which is the source of truth - your position, or the Biblical statement? I could ask the same question but you and I both know that we are trying to find the truth in the text. Your contention is that "All are sinners before birth" and that is what you are reading into the passage without a supporting text showing how Adam's offence made them sinners. Adam's offence condemned them al but did not automatically make any of them sinners. I say "many were made sinners" by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did (Job 31:33). That is what I see the text saying. Many does not mean all, Were does not mean are, made does not mean original state, Sinners is a verb not a noun. Many means many not all. Were here means they were one thing and became something, Made means their was a process to it getting the finished product. Sinners is something that they do against God. Because of Adam's offence many were made sinners because they did as Adam did. You say - "Adam's offence condemned them al but did not automatically make any of them sinners." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the past tense verb "did make" with the negative adverb "not" in order to communicate the denial that Adam's offense "did not . . . make any of them sinners;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the past tense verb "were" without any negative adverb "not" in order to communicate the truth that by Adam's disobedience "many were made sinners." Now, certainly the phrase, "did not make any of them sinners," and the phrase, "were made sinners," do not mean the same thing, but actually mean the very opposite of each other. Herein then you have now come unto a direct denial of God's Holy Word as inspired by God's Holy Spirit. (By the way, if "Adam's offence condemned them all" (as you state in your above statement), then by the definition of the word "condemned" there are none who are "innocent.") You say - "I say "many were made sinners" by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did (Job 31:33)." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the preposition "by" in order to present the prepositional phrasing, "by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by" in order to present the prepositional phrase, "by one man's disobedience." In your statement "hiding iniquity in their heart" is the cause; however, in the Holy Spirit inspired statement of Romans 5:19 "one man's disobedience" is the cause. In your statement you indicate that the cause for being "made sinners" is (present tense) the activity of the "many," whereby they themselves are "hiding iniquity in their heart;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that the cause for the "many's" being "made sinners" was (past tense, for "were" is a past tense verb) the activity of "one man's [Adam's] disobedience." These two causes do not mean the same thing. In fact, Romans 5:19 does not indicate anything whatsoever at all about the activity of the "many." This verse only speaks about something that was done TO them by the cause of someone else's disobedience. _______________________________________________ You say - Many does not mean all . . . . Many means many not all. Actually, "many" means "a large number." That "large number" can indeed encompass "all," for "all" is indeed a large number. On the other hand, "many" can also encompass some number less than "all" as long as that number is "a large number." You say - Were does not mean are, Indeed, the past tense verb "were" doe NOT mean the same as the present tense verb "are," which I pointed out above as I confronted you for changing the past tense "were" into the present tense "are" in your statements of explanation. Indeed, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the truth that the time period wherein the "many" "were made sinners" was sometime in the past, not in the present; for the verb "were made" is indeed past tense. Furthermore, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit revealed the event in the past when the "many" "were made sinners" through revealing that they "were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." They were not "made sinners" by some action of their own. Rather, they "were [past tense] made sinners" by the disobedience of Adam ("by one man's disobedience"). You say - Made does not mean original state . . . . Made means their was a process to it getting the finished product. Indeed, by definition the verb "made" does not refer unto an original state, unless perchance the cause which made them something occurred even before they existed. Now, at this point I shall speak more personally. I myself am absolutely certain that I am a part of the many about which the opening portion of Romans 5:19 speaks. Thus I am absolutely certain that "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience," I myself was [past tense] made a sinner. So then, did Adam's disobedience occur before I existed? Certainly, it did. First, I was in an original state of "non-existence." Then I was "made a sinner" at my conception by Adam's act disobedience, which he committed long before I even existed. You say - Sinners is a verb not a noun. Sinners is something that they do against God. Well, that is simply a grammatical error. The word "sinners" most certainly IS a noun. The verb is "to sin," with its various tense forms, such as "sinned, sinning, sins, shall sin, etc." Thus "sinners" is NOT "something that they do against God." Rather, "sinning" is something that they do against God; and "sinners" is something that they ARE before God. You say - Were here means they were one thing and became something, First, for the statement of Romans 5:19, it is grammatically incorrect to separate the helping verb "were" from the passive verb "made," which it grammatically is "helping." The verb in Romans 5:19 is NOT "were" alone. Rather, grammatically the verb in Romans 5:19 is "were made." Second, the verb "were" does not at all indicate a change in condition. It ONLY indicates a condition that existed in the past. If nothing occurred to change that past condition, then that past condition continues without change. Yet the closing portion of Romans 5:19 does reveal the possibility of a change from the condition of "sinners;" for it states, "So by the obedience of one shall [note the future tense] many be made righteous." You say - Because of Adam's offence many were made sinners because they did as Adam did. Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." As I have confronted above, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit did not inspire the use of the preposition "because of," but inspired the use of the preposition "by." Furthermore, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the inclusion of the phrase "because they did as Adam did;" therefore, this phrase is completely your addition unto that which God the Holy Spirit inspired. Edited September 27, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle spelling & grammar DaveW and Jim_Alaska 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted September 28, 2016 Members Share Posted September 28, 2016 Brother Young, On 9/23/2016 at 2:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: 1. Romans 5:19 does NOT teach that "many were made sinners" "by choice," as you say. Rather, Romans 5:19 teaches that "many were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." So then, which is the source of truth - your position, or the Biblical statement? I could ask the same question but you and I both know that we are trying to find the truth in the text. Your contention is that "All are sinners before birth" and that is what you are reading into the passage without a supporting text showing how Adam's offence made them sinners. Adam's offence condemned them al but did not automatically make any of them sinners. I say "many were made sinners" by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did (Job 31:33). That is what I see the text saying. Many does not mean all, Were does not mean are, made does not mean original state, Sinners is a verb not a noun. Many means many not all. Were here means they were one thing and became something, Made means their was a process to it getting the finished product. Sinners is something that they do against God. Because of Adam's offence many were made sinners because they did as Adam did. In your above response, you make the following two statements: (1) "Many does not mean all." and (2) "Many means many not all." From these two statements it appears that you have a problem with the concept that the word "many" can indeed encompass "all." Therefore, in this posting I am presenting a series of verses in the New Testament wherein the word "many" is used to encompass "all," as follows: 1. Matthew 20:28 (see also Mark 10:45) -- "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." I believe that we would both agree that our Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in death as a ransom for "all" (as per 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:2), and not only for some "many" among the all, yet not the whole of the all. Even so, Matthew 20:28 (see also Mark 10:45) would be a verse wherein the word "many" does indeed encompass "all." Unless you prefer the viewpoint of the Calvinists (which I only bring forward, because you first mentioned them), that Christ only gave HIs life in death as a ransom for the "many" of the elect, and did not actually give His life as a ransom for "all." As for myself, I will accept the Biblical comparison of Matthew 20:28 with 1 Timothy 2:6, and will acknowledge that the word "many" can indeed encompass "all." 2. Matthew 22:14 -- "For many are called, but few are chosen." I believe that we would both agree that God the Father draws and calls "all" unto His Son Jesus Christ for faith unto salvation (as per John 6:44-45; John 12:32; John 1:9), and not only draws and calls "many" among the all, yet not the whole of the all. Even so, Matthew 22:14 would be a verse wherein the word "many" does indeed encompass "all." Unless you prefer the viewpoint of the Calvinists (which I only bring forward, because you first mentioned them), that God the Father only effectually calls the "many" of the elect, and does not actually call "all." As for myself, I will accept the Biblical comparison of Matthew 20:28 with John 6:44-45, and will acknowledge that the word "many" can indeed encompass "all." 3. Matthew 26:28 (see also Mark 14:24) -- "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." I believe that we would both agree that our Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for "all" (as per 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:2), and not only for some "many" among the all, yet not the whole of the all. Even so, Matthew 26:28 (see also Mark 14:24) would be a verse wherein the word "many" does indeed encompass "all." Unless you prefer the viewpoint of the Calvinists (which I only bring forward, because you first mentioned them), that Christ only shed His blood for the "many" of the elect, and did not actually shed His blood for "all." As for myself, I will accept the Biblical comparison of Matthew 20:28 with 1 Timothy 2:6, and will acknowledge that the word "many" can indeed encompass "all." 4. Hebrews 9:28 -- "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." I believe that we would both agree that our Lord Jesus Christ bore the sins of "all" (as per 1 John 2:2), and not only the sins of some "many" among the all, yet not the whole of the all. Even so, Hebrews 9:28 would be a verse wherein the word "many" does indeed encompass "all." Unless you prefer the viewpoint of the Calvinists (which I only bring forward, because you first mentioned them), that Christ only bore the sins of the "many" of the elect, and did not actually bear the sins of "all." As for myself, I will accept the Biblical comparison of Hebrews 9:28 with 1 John 2:2, and will acknowledge that the word "many" can indeed encompass "all." 5. Romans 5:16 -- "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." So then, when I receive God's "free gift unto justification" through faith in Christ, does that justification deal with "all" of my offences against God? Or, does that justification only deal with some "many" of my offences against God, but not actually with all of them? I believe that we would both agree that this justification by God's grace through faith in Christ encompasses "all" of my offences against God. Even so, Romans 5:16 is a verse the word "many" does indeed encompass "all." __________________________________________ Yet if the word "many" has the possibility of either encompassing (1) the whole of the "all" or (2) some "many" from among the all, how can we discern which is the usage and meaning in a given statement of Scripture? We cannot simply do so through the definition of the word "many," since that definition can legitimately encompass both options. Rather, we must discern this through an honest and thorough consideration of the immediate context in which the statement is found, and through a comparison of Scripture with Scripture concerning the same subject matter about which the statement is made. 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Members John Young Posted October 1, 2016 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) I agree that many in a general sense can mean all of a group when there is "a great amount" when generally dealing with many, few or little arbitrary amounts, general attributes of the amounts or when there is an undefined amount or if it is the only amount indicator used, etc.. However, the terms "all" and "many" in this passage is not in reference to an arbitrary undefined amount or attribute. Many is clearly in conjunction to the "all". "All" most definitely in this passage is the indicator for the whole group of humanity and therefor many is tied to the word all in this context to indicate a great number of those in the group but less than all of them. All of the group received condemnation to death and all of them can receive justification to life. Many souls of them will chose to sin and receive that just condemnation. Many souls will chose to call on the Lord to receive the free gift and be considered Righteous. Many but not all because "many" of the "all" will be in Heaven and "many" of the "all" will be in Hell. Not all will go to Heaven and not all will go to Hell. The main point is that, as all other passages indicates, as I believe this one does, that while death and sin is in the world, and upon all flesh, because of Adam, (and while others can greatly influence), it is the individual soul choosing to sin that makes them a sinner. It is because of their sinful actions that they deserve the judgement of death. 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. That is why souls are not sinners simply by physical birth. Romans shows exactly and clearly how "all have sinned" and it was not automatically "because of Adam" but because of transgressing the law. The example of Adam and his curse on all comes into the picture as a contrast to Christ and His blessing. Adam being a picture of the flesh and Christ being a picture of the Spirit.Take for example all of Romans in context, regarding this subject, is making a case that each individual soul is guilty before God based on their own intent and actions in relation to the law and not inseparably on Adam as the source. Adam's sin was the source and cause of and influence of death upon all flesh but the individual soul is responsible for how they interact with that sin that will determine wither or not they receive the second death. Corporately there is sin and death of the flesh but that sin is not imputed to the individual's soul until after the knowledge of the law comes to them:Romans 1 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them..... 27...and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.... 32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. First chapter is clear that the wrath of God is against those who know to do good but do not do it. Romans 2 6 who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;....12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Second chapter shows it is dependent on the individuals deeds in relation to the knowledge of God's law.Romans 3a 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one......19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. First part of chapter three shows that all who have knowledge have gone out of the way. These chapters, 1-3, by default have excluded those who do not yet have knowledge. All who have knowledge cannot be justified by the law because of their sin. They cannot keep their own righteousness because they do not keep the law. Romans 3b 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. This shows the second way men can be righteous. By faith in Christ without the deeds of the law.Romans 4 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [Psalm 32:1-2 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.] Romans four uses Abraham as an example of faith with the quote of David as the key text to show who can get the righteousness of God. The passage shows two groups, those forgiven of wrong and those whom wrong is not yet imputed (given). Romans 5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.....9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [the wrath from chapter 1] .... 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned [with knowledge]: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. .....18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation [to death]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5 contrasts how sin and death came into the world by and passed upon all men, so too life and righteousness came into the world and can pass upon all men in a similar fashion.Romans 6 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. When we are in the flesh and disobey the Law are free from righteousness and work for death but if we receive the gift it frees us from our sin. Romans 7 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter..... 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin..... 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans seven shows how sin works in the flesh and the law shows the evil taking over. When we served by the flesh we were alive until sin took occasion by the law and slew us, then taking us captive. While sin and death were in the world and the flesh, the sin was not imputed to the soul until knowledge of the law came.Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit......10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Edited October 1, 2016 by John Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted October 1, 2016 Administrators Share Posted October 1, 2016 I have followed and read through 110 posts, spread over 5 website pages since June on this topic. I must admit that I am astounded, to say the least, to find a professed Independent Fundamental Baptist argue so forcefully against the fundamental doctrine of the Total Depravity of mankind. To me an argument of this sort strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message that Christ must die for ALL because All come into this world dead because of the sin of our federal head, Adam. Please understand that I do not post this as any kind of put down or personal attack against Bro. John. Having read through so many posts I am convinced that he believes what he propounds. To my mind his sincerity is commendable, if misguided and against any Independent Baptist teaching I have ever heard. To my simple mind, all means all and that's all that all means. 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: I'm just going to leave it at that, others have posted quite enough Scripture to show the validity of the Total depravity of mankind. WellWithMySoul, Pastor Scott Markle and Invicta 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted October 1, 2016 Members Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: In this passage the apostle Paul is dealing with MORE than only two contrasting comparisons. I agree but it is clear that only two end results can be had.Death because of sin or Life Because of Righteousness. All contrasting comparisons are related to these two ends. First, my full presentation on this matter was as follow: On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: This is simply incorrect. In this passage the apostle Paul is dealing with MORE than only two contrasting comparisons. These contrasting comparisons begin in Romans 5:15, and they include at least the following: 1a. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift." - "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift." 1b. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence of one " set in a comparison of contrast with "the grace of God, and the gift by grace." - "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." 2a. In Romans 5:16 we find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification." - "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." 3. In Romans 5:17 we find "death" set in a comparison of contrast with "life" - "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." 2b. In Romans 5:18 we again find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification of life." - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." 4. In Romans 5:19 we find "many made sinners" set in a comparison of contrast with "many made righteous." - "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." It is quite interesting to me that you seem completely to ignore the "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage, which is actually presented in two separate verses of the passage. I have to wonder WHY you ignore this apparently important "set" in the passage. Now then, you say - "I agree but it is clear that only two end results can be had.Death because of sin or Life Because of Righteousness. All contrasting comparisons are related to these two ends." Indeed, as my above presentation reveals, the matters of death or life are mentioned in this passage. However, the matters of condemnation or justification are also mentioned in two separate verses in this passage. So then, the question might be asked concerning the context - What form of "death" or "life" is intended in this context? 1. Is it only PHYSICAL death or PHYSICAL life? Is it only condemnation to PHYSICAL death and justification to PHYSICAL life? 2. Is it also SPIRITUAL death or SPIRITUAL life? 3. Is it even SECOND death or ETERNAL life? Is it condemnation to SECOND death and justification to ETERNAL life? Now, I would grant that SOME of the verses in this passage refer unto the matter of physical death. However, when this passage speaks concerning "condemnation" and "justification," I would contend that it is speaking concerning condemnation to SECOND death and justification to ETERNAL life. On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: It is quite interesting to me that you seem completely to ignore the "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage, which is actually presented in two separate verses of the passage. I have to wonder WHY you ignore this apparently important "set" in the passage. I actually don't ignore it. God is the one who condemns and justifies. That is why I said: "In the passage Paul is dealing with two sets of two. Death and Life, and Sin and Righteousness. Death and Sin are currently in the physical world because of Adam's Transgression. Life and Righteousness are in the Spirit of Christ and is from God in Heaven. This passage in particular is dealing with the effects of death and sin in the physical world and how, by God's grace, we all can receive life and righteousness in the world." God is the one who either condemns or justifies all men to life or death and he determines that based on wither or not they are righteous. While I did not deal with it directly its plain that it was not ignored. You say - "God is the one who either condemns or justifies all men to life or death and he determines that based on wither or not they are righteous." Indeed, God IS the One who either condemns or justifies. Indeed, He does determine that condemnation or justification based upon an individual's position and condition of righteousness. Now then, Romans 3:10 declares, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Even so, since in and of ourselves, apart from the righteousness of Christ, not one is righteous, then ALL (apart from salvation through faith in Christ) are under condemnation, not justification. (Or, do you believe that the word "none" only means "some," and that the phrase "no, not one" only means "no, not many"?) Indeed, this is EXACTLY what the opening portion of Romans 5:18 declares - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." There is NONE in a position of innocence, for ALL are in a position of condemnation. (Or, do you believe that the word "all" herein only means "many"?) On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: [(The portion of my quote that you did not choose to include) Indeed, by ignoring the apparently important "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage (which is also a very significant theme in the entire first five chapters of Romans)] . . . .you find it quite easy to conclude that this passage is all about "the physical world" and physical death. However, throughout the epistle of Romans the matters of condemnation and justification are NOT physical matters, but are SPIRITUAL matters. Sin is a spiritual matter however this particular section dealing with sin "in the world" is showing the effects of sin on the physical. Adam and Christ are both physical people by whom spiritual things are propagated into the material world.1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. And once again you choose not to make any direct reference unto the matters of condemnation and justification. Sin indeed IS a spiritual matter. Death and life can be either physical matters, spiritual matters, or eternal matters. However, condemnation and justification ARE also spiritual matters; and these spiritual matters are referenced in both Romans 5:16 & Romans 5:18. Yet you do not directly reference these spiritual matters of condemnation and justification, although the passage itself DOES directly reference them in two separate verses, because you want us to think that the entire passage is ONLY about PHYSICAL matters. On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: Indeed, the passage does indicate that ALL are already under "judgment to condemnation;" but nowhere does the passage indicate that all are condemned "to get death." That is your insertion. They are not condemned to nothing. The context makes it clear that they are condemned to die because of sin. Justified to life or condemned to death. Sentence to be carried out at the judgement. Indeed, they are NOT condemned unto "nothing." Just as God's justification is unto ETERNAL life in His fellowship forever, even so God's condemnation is unto ETERNAL (SECOND) death under His wrath forever. Now, you indicate that the condemnation is unto death and that the justification is unto life. Furthermore, you indicate that the sentence will be carried out at the day of judgment. Yet you have previously indicated that "death" in this passage is ONLY a reference unto PHYSICAL death. So then, you now have a self-contradiction, since the sentence on the day of judgment would be after the physical death had already occurred. Your viewpoint presents the following order -- condemnation to physical death ----> physical death -----> day of judgment and sentence unto physical death. Furthermore, your viewpoint raises a few questions -- 1. Is the justification (which is presented as the direct opposite of the condemnation) also only unto physical life; yet all human individuals experience physical life, right? 2. If the condemnation is unto physical death, then why do those who are justified in Christ still experience the sentence of physical death? On 9/25/2016 at 5:23 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: Yet since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation," your denial of condemnation upon some is a direct contradiction of the PRECISE statement in Scripture. Furthermore, since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that this "judgment to condemnation" came "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE," your reference unto some having "never lived long enough to sin" is irrelevant to the Biblical truth, since their sin is not the cause of the "judgment to condemnation" anyway. What I mean is that while all are condemned there is a means by which not all will take part in that condemnation and that God determines it on account of an individual's righteousness. While all are condemned to die not all will. All can be justified in the similar fashion as the condemnation Yet the quotation of yours that I was specifically speaking against was as follows: On 9/24/2016 at 6:24 AM, John Young said: Particularly, that while they are all made subject to death by Adam some still have never lived long enough to sin to the condemnation of the soul. In this quotation, you do NOT say anything about individual's being justified in Christ. Rather, you speak concerning those whom you say "have never lived long enough to sin to the condemnation of the soul." Yet again I present the truth of Romans 5:18 - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." According to this verse, ALL are under condemnation; therefore, there is not any place (apart from justification in Christ) for even one to be innocent and without condemnation. Furthermore, according to this verse, condemnation came upon ALL (with not even one excluded) "by the offence of one [Adam]," which means that their own sin is not relevant to the condemnation about which this verse speaks. (Note: I now have another scheduled obligation, so more to follow.) Edited October 1, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle spelling & grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted October 1, 2016 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said: I have followed and read through 110 posts, spread over 5 website pages since June on this topic. I must admit that I am astounded, to say the least, to find a professed Independent Fundamental Baptist argue so forcefully against the fundamental doctrine of the Total Depravity of mankind. To me an argument of this sort strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message that Christ must die for ALL because All come into this world dead because of the sin of our federal head, Adam. Please understand that I do not post this as any kind of put down or personal attack against Bro. John. Having read through so many posts I am convinced that he believes what he propounds. To my mind his sincerity is commendable, if misguided and against any Independent Baptist teaching I have ever heard. To my simple mind, all means all and that's all that all means. 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: I'm just going to leave it at that, others have posted quite enough Scripture to show the validity of the Total depravity of mankind. Not all IFB believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Total depravity. While I do believe in parts of what it proposes, as a whole, I think the doctrine misses the mark. I agree that All flesh has been corrupted and is dead in because of sin. However, I do not believe that this condition is automatic to the soul or it leaves the soul with no ability to comprehend its situation, because God gave them witness, but rather is a self inflected condition on the soul because of their evil deeds. I also do not take any of the comments as a personal attack against me. I understand that we all have deferring forms of doctrine (mostly semantics I think) on this particular issue and when they intersect with scripture and each other sparks will fly. lol However, I take it as a sharpening of the mind and scripture learning to think about the nuances of these things. The main reason for sincerity in proposing the OP as the true position of scripture is if I do not give it an honest search and weight of scripture against other doctrinal positions then there is a danger of dismissing it in favor of a faulty doctrinal position rater then on the actual truth of scripture. In the end I hope to see the truth of scripture, regardless if that truth is the same or different then a doctrine proposes by any group. Iron sharpens Iron and I appreciate the comments, wither for or against the OP. Edited October 1, 2016 by John Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted October 1, 2016 Members Share Posted October 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, John Young said: Not all IFB believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Total depravity. While I do believe in parts of what it proposes, as a whole, I think the doctrine misses the mark. I agree that All flesh has been corrupted and is dead in because of sin. However, I do not believe that this condition is automatic to the soul or it leaves the soul with no ability to comprehend its situation, because God gave them witness, but rather is a self inflected condition on the soul because of their evil deeds. I also do not take any of the comments as a personal attack against me. I understand that we all have deferring forms of doctrine (mostly semantics I think) on this particular issue and when they intersect with scripture and each other sparks will fly. lol However, I take it as a sharpening of the mind and scripture learning to think about the nuances of these things. The main reason for sincerity in proposing the OP as the true position of scripture is if I do not give it an honest search and weight of scripture against other doctrinal positions then there is a danger of dismissing it in favor of a faulty doctrinal position rater then on the actual truth of scripture. In the end I hope to see the truth of scripture, regardless if that truth is the same or different then a doctrine proposes by any group. Iron sharpens Iron and I appreciate the comments, wither for or against the OP. Insistently 2 Corinthians 5 is referring to our bodies of flesh being dead because of sin. Do you believe, then, that the fall was not total or that the sinner is not dead in his sins? Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted October 1, 2016 Members Share Posted October 1, 2016 11 hours ago, John Young said: I agree that many in a general sense can mean all of a group when there is "a great amount" when generally dealing with many, few or little arbitrary amounts, general attributes of the amounts or when there is an undefined amount or if it is the only amount indicator used, etc.. However, the terms "all" and "many" in this passage is not in reference to an arbitrary undefined amount or attribute. Many is clearly in conjunction to the "all". "All" most definitely in this passage is the indicator for the whole group of humanity and therefor many is tied to the word all in this context to indicate a great number of those in the group but less than all of them. So then, you acknowledge that the word "many" CAN refer in a given context unto "all" or unto some "many" among all. Furthermore, you appear to acknowledge that this usage is determined by each immediate context in which the word "many" is located. What then is the contextual usage for the word "many" in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19? Concerning this passage, you say -- "However, the terms "all" and "many" in this passage is not in reference to an arbitrary undefined amount or attribute. Many is clearly in conjunction to the "all". "All" most definitely in this passage is the indicator for the whole group of humanity and therefor many is tied to the word all in this context to indicate a great number of those in the group but less than all of them." Indeed, in this passage the word "all" "is the indicator fof the whole group of humanity," such that -- 1. Death is upon all, without any single one excluded. - Romans 5:12 2. All have committed sin, without any single one excluded. - Romans 5:12 3. Judgment unto condemnation is upon all, without any single one excluded. - Romans 5:18 (Thus not even a single one is in a condition of "innocence.") 4. The free gift unto justification of life is made available unto all, without a single one excluded - Romans 5:18 Indeed also, "the word 'many' is tied to the word 'all' in this context to indicate a great number of those in the group." However, I am compelled to dispute with your claim that in this context the word "many" indicates "a great number of those in the group but less than all of them" in every instance. I myself certainly agree that the word "all" indicates the whole set (to use mathematical terminology) and that the word "many" indicates a subset in relation to the set of "all." However, I continue to contend that the subset of "many" is not exactly the same for all four of the uses of the word "many" in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19. That is -- The "many" who "be dead" are not necessarily the exact same "many" unto whom "the grace of God, and the gift by grace" abounded, which is not necessarily the exact same "many" who "were made sinners" by Adam's disobedience, which is not necessarily the exact same "many" who shall "be made righteous" by the obedience of Christ. Furthermore, I continue to contend that some of these subsets of "many" are indeed a subset of "many" that encompasses the whole set of "all." Indeed, let us consider just the first usage of the word "many" in Romans 5:15 -- "For if through the offence of one many be dead." How "many" are the "many" who "be dead" through Adam's offence? 1. Romans 5:12 -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." 2. 1 Corinthians 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 3. 2 Corinthians 5:14 -- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead." How "many" be dead in Adam? ALL die in Adam, because death passed upon ALL by Adam's sin, such that ALL were dead. It seems fairly clear to me concerning Romans 5:15, both from the teaching of the immediate context in Romans 5:12 and from a comparison of Scripture to Scripture, that the "many" who "be dead" through Adam's offense in Romans 5:15 encompasses the "all" of humanity. So then, if indeed the word "many" in the opening portion of Romans 5:15 can encompass the "all" in this context, it would also be possible for the word "many" to encompass the "all" in some (not necessarily all) of its other uses in this context. Even so, each individual usage would require individual examination within this context (a consideration which I have made in a previous posting, which you have not at all made, since you simply assumed that in the context the word "many" must mean "less than all"). 11 hours ago, John Young said: All of the group received condemnation to death and all of them can receive justification to life. Many souls of them will chose to sin and receive that just condemnation. Many souls will chose to call on the Lord to receive the free gift and be considered Righteous. Many but not all because "many" of the "all" will be in Heaven and "many" of the "all" will be in Hell. Not all will go to Heaven and not all will go to Hell. Indeed, ALL of humanity are already under judgment to condemnation. ALL are already condemned. NONE have to wait until some in the future for this condemnation to be pronounced upon them. God's Word has already pronounced this condemnation upon them. What is the cause of that judgment unto condemnation? Romans 5:18 gives answer - "By the offence of one [Adam]." Adam's first offence is imputed unto ALL of humanity, such that ALL of humanity are already under judgment to condemnation. Adam's example is NOT referenced at all. Adam's OFFENSE is that which is given as the cause. Yet does not a individual's personal choices of sin bring condemnation? Yes, for each additional choice of sin adds more condemnation and wrath "against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God." (See Romans 2:5) However, the very first point of condemnation is NOT by one's own choice of sin. Rather, the very first point of condemnation is "by the offence of one [Adam]." Thus the truth is as follows: All of the group is already under condemnation unto God's eternal wrath in hell, and all of the group have an opportunity to receive God's gracious gift of justification unto eternal life. Many souls will not choose to receive God's gracious gift of justification; therefore, they will receive the just punishment of the condemnation which was already pronounced upon them by the imputation of Adam's offense. On the other hand, many will receive God's gracious gift of justification unto eternal life through faith in Christ. Even so, "many" of the "all" will be in Heaven and "many" of the "all" will be in Hell; for not all will spend eternity in Heaven and not all will spend eternity in Hell. 11 hours ago, John Young said: The main point is that, as all other passages indicates, as I believe this one does, that while death and sin is in the world, and upon all flesh, because of Adam, (and while others can greatly influence), it is the individual soul choosing to sin that makes them a sinner. You say - "It is the individual soul choosing to sin that makes them a sinner." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Did you know that the words "sinner" and "sinners" are used a total of 69 times throughout the King James translation? Did you know that among all 69 times only ONE of these verses speaks concerning how individuals were "made sinners"? That one verse is Romans 5:19. So then, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the present tense verb "makes" in the phrase, "makes them a sinner;" however, in Romans 5:20 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the past tense verb "were made" in the phase, "many were made sinners." These two tenses of verb do not mean the same thing. Furthermore, in your statement you indicate that the cause which "makes them a sinner" is "the individual soul choosing to sin;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit indicated through inspiration that the cause by which "many were made sinners" is "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." These two causes do not mean the same thing. 11 hours ago, John Young said: It is because of their sinful actions that they deserve the judgement of death. No, it is "by the offence of one [Adam]" through imputation that they are initially under just "judgment to condemnation," as per Romans 5:19. Then it is because of their sinful actions that condemnation unto wrath is added upon condemnation unto wrath. 11 hours ago, John Young said: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. That is why souls are not sinners simply by physical birth. Concerning Romans 5:13-14. In the passage of Romans 5:12-19, the comparative contrasts between the imputation of Adam's disobedience and the imputation of Christ's obedience do not begin until verse 15. Romans 5:12 begins the passage concerning the relationship between Adam's first disobedience and the curse of death upon all men -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Then Romans 5:13-14 further explains the truths of Romans 5:12. 1. Romans 5:13a - "For until the law sin was in the world." Herein the phrase "the law" appears to be a reference unto the law that God gave Moses at Sinai. Yet even before that law was given, even from Adam until that law was given, sin DID indeed exist within the world of humanity. Although "sin" can be defined as a "transgression of the law," this does not mean that sin could not exist until the law was given at Sinai. Indeed, sin was already in the world even before the law was given at Sinai. 2. Romans 5:13b - "But sin is not imputed where there is no law." This truth is a general truth which indicates that no sin whatsoever can be imputed against an individual if no law exists. "Sin" can indeed be defined as a "transgression of law;" therefore, if there is no law whatsoever in existence, then it is impossible to transgress that which does not exist. Thus it is impossible to commit a sin, and thus it is impossible for sin to be imputed. So then, does this mean that no single sin could be imputed against any single individual until the law was given at Sinai? This cannot be the intention of this statement; for in the very Biblical record, we learn that sin WAS imputed in the case of Cain and that sin WAS imputed in the case of all humanity in Noah's day. Furthermore, the opening portion of Romans 5:13 has already declared that sin certainly did exist in the world even before the law was given at Sinai. Apparently, then this truth is stated in order for us to recognize that some form of God's law DID indeed exist in the world even before the proclaimed law at Sinai. Maybe Romans 2:12-16 might provide us with help in this matter. (By the way, Romans 5:13b does NOT say anything about the knowledge of law; for it does NOT say, "But sin is not imputed where there is no knowledge of law." Rather, it says that "sin is not imputed where there is no law," that is -- where there is no existence of law.) 3. Romans 5:14a - "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses." Herein we learn that death, which is one of the results of sin, DID indeed reign over all of humanity from Adam to Moses, even before the law was given at Sinai. Just as sin was in the world of humanity before the law was given at Sinai, even so death reigned in the world of humanity even before the law was given at Sinai. 4. Romans 5:14b - "Even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." This statement cannot mean that these individuals did not sin at all, since Romans 5:12 has already revealed that "all have sinned," and since Romans 5:13 has already revealed that "sin was in the world" even before the law was given at Sinai. So then, what does this statement mean? The word "similitude" means "in the likeness of, in the same manner." Sin is a transgression of law by definition. If there is sin, there is some form of law to transgress. Adam had a form of law to transgress, and these individuals had a form of law to transgress (or else, they could not have sinned at all). This then is not the difference. Rather, the difference is that Adam sinned against a directly communicated law, and that he sinned with a fully recognized understanding that he was directly breaking that directly communicated law (as per 1 Timothy 2:14). However, these other individuals from Adam unto Moses and the law at Sinai did NOT have a directly communicated law. They only had God's law "written in their hearts" (as per Romans 2:15). Yet they were still without excuse. Yet sin was still imputed to them. Yet they still died. 5. Romans 5:14c - "Who [Adam] is the figure of him that was to come." Adam was the first representative man, and Christ is the second representative man. This statement then leads into all of the contrasting comparisons from verse 15 to verse 19. Even so, all of these contrasting comparisons refer unto the matter of imputation -- the imputation of Adam's disobedience unto ALL, and the imputation of Christ's righteousness unto those who receive it through faith. 11 hours ago, John Young said: Romans shows exactly and clearly how "all have sinned" and it was not automatically "because of Adam" but because of transgressing the law. Indeed, the epistle to the Romans does indicate that "all have sinned." In so doing, the epistle employs an active verb to speak about how human individuals actively commit sin against God. As such, these passage are indeed about how individuals choose for themselves to commit sin. However, the verb "have sinned" and the noun "sinners" do mean exactly the same thing (which difference you appear to have a difficulty grasping). The verb "have sinned" speaks about what individuals DO by active choice; whereas the noun "sinners" speaks about what individuals ARE by inherent nature. Romans 5:12 does indeed indicate that "all have sinned," thereby revealing that all actively choose to commit sin. However, Romans 5:19 does NOT speak about individuals sinning. Rather, it speaks about individuals being "sinners." In fact, in speaks about how individuals "were MADE sinners;" and it reveals that they "were made sinners" "BY [the cause of] ONE MAN'S [Adam's] DISOBEDIENCE," not by the cause of their own choice to commit sin. Even so, the truth concerning "all have sinned" and the truth concerning "were made sinners" are NOT precisely the same truth. Certainly, they are related truth; but they are NOT the same truth. In fact, one great question which these two different, but related truths raise is this -- Which one comes first; which one leads to the other? 1. Are individuals sinners because they commit sin? 2. Or, do individuals commit sin because they are sinners? Now, Romans 5:19 precisely reveals that individuals "were [past tense] made sinners," not by committing sin themselves, but "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience. Therefore, this verse reveals that the cause whereby individuals "were made sinners" occurred even before those individuals even existed to commit sin by active choice. Even so, we are able to understand which came first - These individuals "were made sinners" by Adam's disobedience; then being already sinners, they all have committed sin. 11 hours ago, John Young said: The example of Adam and his curse on all comes into the picture as a contrast to Christ and His blessing. Adam being a picture of the flesh and Christ being a picture of the Spirit. Brother, you continue to make reference unto the EXAMPLE of Adam in relation to Romans 5:12-19. Yet the word "example" or "ensample" is NOT used even once in the entire passage. Furthermore, if you believe that it is only by the EXAMPLE of Adam's disobedience that the curse comes, do you also believe that it is only by the EXAMPLE of Christ's obedience that the blessing is made available? Do you believe that all of the contrasting comparisons between Adam and Christ are just about their EXAMPLES, that is -- Adam's EXAMPLE and Christ's EXAMPLE? As for me, I believe that all of the contrasting comparisons between Adam and Christ in this passage are about IMPUTATION, that is -- the IMPUTATION of Adam's disobedience whereby all are already under condemnation, and the IMPUTATION of Christ's righteousness whereby all who receive through faith are justified. (Note: More to follow as time permits concerning your Romans 1-8 commentary.) Alan and Jim_Alaska 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted October 2, 2016 Members Share Posted October 2, 2016 7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: As for me, I believe that all of the contrasting comparisons between Adam and Christ in this passage are about IMPUTATION, that is -- the IMPUTATION of Adam's disobedience whereby all are already under condemnation, and the IMPUTATION of Christ's righteousness whereby all who receive through faith are justified. Maybe this thread has run its course. Maybe a study on 'imputation,' would be profitable. Alan John Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted October 2, 2016 Administrators Share Posted October 2, 2016 9 hours ago, Alan said: Maybe this thread has run its course. Maybe a study on 'imputation,' would be profitable. Alan Many times it does seem like a thread this long may have run its course, especially when the same arguments begin to be posted again and again. But I have to say that for me this thread has been very informative from an unusual standpoint. That standpoint is that I never would have thought that what I considered a fundamental of the faith regarding the total depravity of mankind would be an issue among Independent Baptists. I also never could have imagined that I would ever be labeled a Calvinist for believing in a doctrine that was taught to me by a missionary pastor who was as far away from and decried the teaching of Calvinism as he could get. I admit to being somewhat naive regarding some of the things that have been discussed on this board since I have joined. I had a wake up call when I first joined and saw that the designation, "Independent Baptist" needed further description by adding the word "Fundamental." To the Alaskan churches, the designation "Independent Baptist" was well understood and needed no further explanation. I attribute my naivete to having been saved and a member of a small Independent Baptist church in the wilds of Alaska. We had very little exposure to other churches outside of Alaska and lots of exposure to sister churches inside of Alaska. Consequently, although we heard that there were some Baptists that held to differing views than we did, we were not actually exposed to them. So, I said that simply to say that discovering differing views has been edifying to me because I get to hear both sides of an issue, as well as the Scripture used to either affirm or deny the issue at hand. So, as for me, I have enjoyed the interaction on this thread, even though some of the arguments have been beaten to death. But at the same time I do understand why some would say that the thread has run its course. Alan, Pastor Scott Markle, Invicta and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted October 3, 2016 Members Share Posted October 3, 2016 On 6/3/2016 at 10:25 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said: 2 Corinthians 5:14 -- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead." The context of this chapter is about living in our bodies for Christ. Our physical bodies are dead in Adam and our mortal bodies and will pass away. Christ died so that we could live in a heavenly body. 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (Note: Brother Young's response was delivered here.) On 10/1/2016 at 4:55 PM, John Young said: Insistently 2 Corinthians 5 is referring to our bodies of flesh being dead because of sin. (Note: This is a quote that Brother Young later edited out of his posting; however, it can be observed here in Brother David's quotation of Brother Young's posting.) Concerning 2 Corinthians 5:14. Throughout 2 Corinthians 4-5 the apostle Paul provides a number of motivations for faithfulness in serving the Lord, as follows: 1. In 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 he provided the motivation concerning the gloriousness of our Savior Jesus Christ and of His saving gospel. 2. In 2 Corinthians 4:8-12 he provided the motivation concerning our privilege to bear about the dying and the life of Christ our Savior in our daily living. 3. In 2 Corinthians 4:13-18 he provides the motivation concerning the truth that sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared unto the glory of the resurrection. 3a. In 2 Corinthians 5:1-9 he expands upon the motivation concerning the resurrection, providing truth concerning a death for a believer, wherein we receive heavenly bodies and are present with the Lord. 4. In 2 Corinthians 5:10-13 he provides the motivation concerning the judgment seat of Christ whereat all believers shall appear and be judged. 5. In 2 Corinthians 5:14-16 he provides the motivation concerning Christ's love for us in dying for us in order that we might receive the gift of life. 5a. In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 he expands upon the motivation concerning Christ's loving sacrifice, revealing our responsibility as believers for the ministry and word of the gospel toward the lost. Now, in his explanation concerning 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Brother Young moves back in the immediate context over five verses in order to bring forward the teaching of 2 Corinthians 5:1-9. This he does in order to support his assertion that 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 is speaking, not about all being spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," but about all dwelling in this life in physical bodies that experience the force of physical death in Adam. However, just two verse after 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 in the immediate context, 2 Corinthians 5:17 indicates that anyone who is "in Christ" is "a new creature," that is -- a new spiritual creation in Christ Jesus. Even so, 2 Corinthians 5:17 appears to be speaking concerning the same spiritual work of God as Ephesians 2:10 -- "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Now, Ephesians 2:10 concludes a portion of Scripture in Ephesians 2:1-10 that speaks concerning God's provision of salvation from our problem of being spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," whereby He makes us spiritually alive "together with Christ" through faith. Therefore, since 2 Corinthians 5:17 is only two verses away from 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, and since 2 Corinthians 5:17 speaks about the same truth as Ephesians 2:10, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the problem of being "dead" and the gift of being made to "live" in 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 are the same as that which is referenced in Ephesians 2:1-10. As such, the problem of all being "dead" in 2 Corinthians 5:14 would be the same as that of Ephesians 2:1-3, the problem of being spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins." As such also, the gift of being made to "live" in 2 Corinthians 5:15 would be the same as that of Ephesians 2:4-9, the gift of being spiritually "quickened together with Christ." Furthermore, the teaching of 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 itself, concerning the problem of all being "dead," concerning the gift of being made to "live," and concerning the relationship of Christ's death unto these things, is also instructive. First, the closing line of 2 Corinthians 5:14 teaches us the truth that all were indeed dead, if indeed Christ died for all. Then the opening line of 2 Corinthians 5:15 teaches us the truth that Christ did indeed die for all, which allows us to conclude that indeed all were dead. Finally, the closing portion of 2 Corinthians 5:14 reveals that through Christ's death for them and resurrection, some are made able to "live." Indeed, the contextual statement of 2 Corinthians 5:17 further reveals that it is those who are "in Christ" which are made new spiritual creatures in Christ, and which would thereby be made able to "live." As such, the teaching of 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 is NOT about physical death at all. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not die for us simply because we were physically dead, in order simply to take away our physical deadness and in order simply to make us physically alive. God forbid! Rather, our Lord Jesus Christ died for us because we were spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," in order to save us from our spiritual deadness and in order to make us spiritually alive as new spiritual creatures in Him. Even so, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 teaches us that we believers should be motivated by the love of Christ in dying for us and in thereby providing newness of spiritual life for us. Yes, it teaches us that we believers should be motivated by these truths, no longer to live out our present lives unto ourselves, but now to live out our newness of spiritual life unto our Lord who died for us and rose again. Indeed, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 reveals that we believer should live unto our Lord especially by being faithful unto our God-given responsibility concerning the gospel ministry and gospel word of reconciliation, wherein we are called to be "ambassadors for Christ," beseeching the lost "to be reconciled unto God" through faith in Christ. 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Members John Young Posted October 4, 2016 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) On 10/2/2016 at 7:29 AM, Jim_Alaska said: Many times it does seem like a thread this long may have run its course, especially when the same arguments begin to be posted again and again. But I have to say that for me this thread has been very informative from an unusual standpoint. That standpoint is that I never would have thought that what I considered a fundamental of the faith regarding the total depravity of mankind would be an issue among Independent Baptists. I also never could have imagined that I would ever be labeled a Calvinist for believing in a doctrine that was taught to me by a missionary pastor who was as far away from and decried the teaching of Calvinism as he could get. I apologize if it seemed that I was labeling you a Calvinist. That is not what I meant. I know that most everyone here is not Calvinist and are Godly men and women seeking the truth directly from scripture. I was not referring to you or anyone reading the thread but rather to the phrase used. "Total Depravity" as commonly espoused is the foundation of Calvinist and Armenian doctrine. That phrase also comes along with a lot of their out of context baggage as well. So wither one agrees or disagrees with the Calvinist doctrine, the uses of the phrase shows that their theology has set the framework to some extent as to how the scriptures are to be viewed rather then allowing the scriptures themselves to set the true framework. So that if an Independent Baptist sees through some of their errors they will still not see all of them because they still use the Calvinist colored lens, if you will, in the way the see and think about the scriptures. The Calvinist in essence removes the contextual framework natural to the bible and puts in its place one of their own making. In another sense this is also the fault of many "systematic theology" books when attempting to teach truths from scripture they may inadvertently make a statement as scripture truth then take a verse or passage out of it's scriptural place in order to justify the statement. The collage student then believing the statement will then only see the verse or passage as true in light of the misleading or false statement rather then in light of the way that bible book or chapter is using it. In the end, rather then starting at the beginning of a bible book and using it as the foundation and building each chapter and verse in its light, the out of context theology becomes the guiding light. For example Romans 1 speaking of knowledge and disregard of the law as the foundation for the imputation of sin to each soul then is supplanted by Romans 5 which speaks to the source and origin of sin. While God's order starts with the fact that we all have full knowledge and yet disregard Him theirs needs a foundation whereby sin is imputed regardless of man's ability to know. While both are true and have their place, the order of scripture is pulled out of place in order to support an incorrect order. The OP is simply my attempt to understand the whole context of scripture in context without taking help from Calvin's or other's framework. I may be on the right track or I may be wrong but it is simply an attempt to understand the matter in light of all scripture. In presenting the OP as is I also acknowledge the fact that I very well may be doing the very same thing as I have just faulted the other theologies for doing. Seeing scripture in light of my own framework. Particularly in the fact that Brother Markle and I, for the last few post, have been held up in our discussion because we disagree on what the word "many" actually signifies in the passage. Brother Markle has stated our issue lays in the grammar however I think our impasse is not primarily based in grammer (the word and grammar of the text technically can allow for both views) but rather the theological perspective that we are placing upon the passage skews our thinking. To that point we both think that the passage is supportive of our respective positions. If yourself, and others, are secure in the theology they were taught and believe it has been derived from a completely correct whole presentation and framework as the bible presents them them, rather then bits and pieces, then I am glad and want to study the scriptural points so that I can better understand the truth. I am still studying my position so I am still open to developing and changing the OP as time allows and as I learn the proper perspective, place, and order, the scriptures put on each point and upon the overall whole. I hope that gives you an understanding as to what and why I am presenting the things I have which may seem contrary to the way that you learned them. I'm not trying to present anything new or heretical but just to understand how it all works together in light of their proper place in the whole of scripture instead of in the place and order we tend to think of them because of other symptomologies which tend to derive theology from bits and pieces preferring only supportive verses but dismissing or trying to explain away others which present something completely different. On 10/1/2016 at 10:09 PM, Alan said: Maybe this thread has run its course. Maybe a study on 'imputation,' would be profitable. Alan Brother Markle, I'm pretty much in agreement with the consensus of Brother Alan and Brother Jim that we've pretty much made our respective positions known and the thread has run its course into semantical territory and now is not going anywhere really productive or edifying. Additionally, time constraints have prevented me from adequately studying and addressing every point and in a timely manor so that my replies of late have been more general to your overall reply then to your specific details, perhaps causing it to seem like there is more of a disparaging nature between us then perhaps there actually is. For that I apologize. So, if its okay with you, I would be fine with you taking the lead with your study on your thread: "Human Sinfulness & The Accountability of Babies" as that topic, in particular that in regard to "imputation" would get us all back on track as that issue seems to be the major disagreement we seem to be having in regards to my OP. That is not to disregard the hard work that you have done already in the above posts, of which I am greatly appreciative and am still considering your points as I study the topic, however, it has never been my main intention to disagree or argue unnecessarily for the fun of it but rather to learn from you and the others posting. I believe your new thread can present your position and thinking on the topic better then this one can and it is my current preference to watch your study there and occasionally comment if that is okay. Then in time, if a resolution between us in regard to the fundamental nature of God's "imputation" can be reached then perhaps we can move forward with other issues in my OP study. Edited October 4, 2016 by John Young Alan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted October 4, 2016 Members Share Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Young said: Brother Markle, I'm pretty much in agreement with the consensus of Brother Alan and Brother Jim that we've pretty much made our respective positions known and the thread has run its course into semantical territory and now is not going anywhere really productive or edifying. Additionally, time constraints have prevented me from adequately studying and addressing every point and in a timely manor so that my replies of late have been more general to your overall reply then to your specific details, perhaps causing it to seem like there is more of a disparaging nature between us then perhaps there actually is. For that I apologize. So, if its okay with you, I would be fine with you taking the lead with your study on your thread: "Human Sinfulness & The Accountability of Babies" as that topic, in particular that in regard to "imputation" would get us all back on track as that issue seems to be the major disagreement we seem to be having in regards to my OP. That is not to disregard the hard work that you have done already in the above posts, of which I am greatly appreciative and am still considering your points as I study the topic, however, it has never been my main intention to disagree or argue unnecessarily for the fun of it but rather to learn from you and the others posting. I believe your new thread can present your position and thinking on the topic better then this one can and it is my current preference to watch your study there and occasionally comment if that is okay. Then in time, if a resolution between us in regard to the fundamental nature of God's "imputation" can be reached then perhaps we can move forward with other issues in my OP study. Brother Young, I thank you for showing me respect by simply making request of me. Indeed, I am willing to end our present discussion at this point, and to focus my attention upon the other thread discussion. There were some other passages that you brought forward, which I had desired to handle in greater detail. However, some of those have already arisen in the discussion of the other thread. Therefore, I expect that I will be handling them within that discussion instead. Edited October 4, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle John Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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