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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Is 'Calling Upon The Name of the Lord' salvation?


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

OK folks, I was able to move all the posts regarding "asking Jesus to save you", into this new thread that GP started. This means that they are no longer in the other thread that was about repentance. 

The only problem with doing it this way is that Bro. Genevanpreacher's first post in his new thread shows up last in the list.

Hopefully this will not be too confusing. At the very least it will keep all the posts on this subject that have already been posted all in one place.

One good thing about this is that folks won't have to post their stuff all over again. This will allow the conversation to progress from the point we left off in the other thread.

I'm still working at finding out how much I can do as a mod. I would like to move GP's first post in this new thread to the top so it doesn't look like you are coming into the thread in the middle of a topic. I'll see if I can do it without messing everything up. I could use some prayer in this respect. The last thing I want to do is possibly make all the posts go away, or mess up the thread and not be able to undo some terrible mistake. :hide:__________________________________
James Foley - Webmaster
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http://countrybabtistchurch.com/

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I like that you had the ability to talk to a Muslim Donald. As to what you said - it was eye opening to him, I am sure. Your statement that he "ask Jesus to save me" is quite concerning though. 

Calling upon the name of the Lord never saved anyone in the NT nor the OT.

It is by believing with all your heart.

If you look carefully at those verses in Romans 10 you will see what I mean. Because if you believe 'calling upon the name of the Lord' is getting saved, you have 2 salvations in the same chapter.

This is where I don't like most so called 'gospel tracts'. They are not gospel. They are 'say this magical prayer- and POOF you're saved' tracts.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is an 'after salvation' type of characteristic. Not a 'non-believer getting saved' type of characteristic.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is simply praying to the Lord you believe in with all your heart.

Any example from the scriptures of someone getting saved by doing this will of course nullify my statements here.

But there are zero examples.

Let us focus on who Jesus IS - THAT is the Gospel that we believe in.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

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7 hours ago, Donald said:

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Indeed the presentation, including the ordering of key points, is very important. When done in person we can have the added benefit of being able to see facial and body expressions and reactions which can help us know their understanding or lack thereof. More importantly, if we are prayed up for witnessing, we have the benefit of the guidance of the Holy Ghost as we present the Gospel.

The more difficult point is in trying to create or find tracts which are able to express the means of true biblical salvation rather than presenting a "magical" prayer or giving the impression repeating a "sinners prayer" is all that's necessary.

When we are saved, that which comes with salvation is immediately ours. What comes after salvation, hopefully, is growth in Christ.

I applaud your efforts to take great care in this area.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
 

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Yet there it is, brother.

You emphasized that the 'asking Jesus to save him' was the point of salvation. One example of this occuring in the NT?

It does not exist.

So maybe you need to rethink what Romans is saying in the 'calling upon the name of the Lord" section, huh?

Maybe?

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The thief on the cross asked. The woman at the well asked for living water. Blind Bartimaeus asked, Nicodemus asked, The Wild man of Gadarra asked, People met Christ in different ways; what's wrong with asking, bro?

 

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When one 'calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", is this not to ask to be forgiven and saved? To confess the Lord Jesus Christ, is this not, in essence, repentance of heart, in accepting Jesus to be Lord? I think we're way-over-thinking it. It isn't rocket surgery. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with you mouth that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can you call upon someone you don't believe in?

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14 hours ago, heartstrings said:

The thief on the cross asked. The woman at the well asked for living water. Blind Bartimaeus asked, Nicodemus asked, The Wild man of Gadarra asked, People met Christ in different ways; what's wrong with asking, bro?

 

Good points and a caveat to this IMO is that all of your examples above initiated their salvation. Noone goaded, bribed or tricked them into saying a canned little speech (prayer) into the wind. They were in the presence of the Living Word of God and saving faith only comes by the Word of God (either Living or Written).

Repentance is not rocket surgery, it is born of the Spirit via the Word and is supernatural. Give them the Word and pray for them, God will give the increase (not us) 

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16 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

When one 'calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", is this not to ask to be forgiven and saved? To confess the Lord Jesus Christ, is this not, in essence, repentance of heart, in accepting Jesus to be Lord? I think we're way-over-thinking it. It isn't rocket surgery. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with you mouth that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can you call upon someone you don't believe in?

Amen and Amen

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7 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

When one 'calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", is this not to ask to be forgiven and saved? To confess the Lord Jesus Christ, is this not, in essence, repentance of heart, in accepting Jesus to be Lord? I think we're way-over-thinking it. It isn't rocket surgery. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with you mouth that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can you call upon someone you don't believe in?

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

Time seems to be tough lately but can you elaborate on what you mean? I think I know but that ain't good enough for me.

If you don't mind

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4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

Obviously it is true that the exact phrase "ask Jesus to save you" is not in the Bible. But there are many exact phrases that we use that are not in the Bible in their exact wording, yet they are taught in "other words".

Consider the thief on the cross:  Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 

And lastly consider the answer of Jesus to this man:  Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If this is not teaching that he asked Jesus to save him and Jesus did exactly that, then I don't know what is.

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Believing is the point of salvation and that saving faith is always coupled with a call upon the Lord for salvation. Just as a man cannot "say a prayer" to be saved he cannot "believe" and keep silent. Either by calling on the Lord for it, asking for it, acknowledging it, being led in it, or etc. It makes little difference exactly how it is said but that one does call.  

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matthew 7:7-9 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groaning swhich cannot be uttered.

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17 hours ago, wretched said:

Time seems to be tough lately but can you elaborate on what you mean? I think I know but that ain't good enough for me.

If you don't mind

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

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In my case the "after effect" happened in about a second or less because I was yelling the name of Jesus before I could get out of the pew, but yes, I'm going to have to say I agree with you. Absolutely. Besides, a mute person would be in trouble if he had to "call" audibly. But that's not the case. Faith and repentance take place in the heart and, also because of this, it is not of "works". But if Jesus comes into a man's heart, I fully believe there will be some kind of outward "after effect".. Happened to me.

...and there will be a change; a new creature, old things passed away, all things become new.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

Ok, I got it GP. That is what I thought you meant and I cannot see it either..

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Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

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5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

I am not a grammarian by any means Bro. Scott. But in my unlearned opinion Romans 10:13 Means exactly what it says in plain English and nothing more or less.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
19 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

Romans 10:13 ?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord pray shall be saved. (?)

Doesn't your definition negate what you were trying to say?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I am not a grammarian by any means Bro. Scott. But in my unlearned opinion Romans 10:13 Means exactly what it says in plain English and nothing more or less.

I may be wrong but what I think GP is saying is opposing a verbal head acknowledgement and "sinners" prayer and standing for a true "calling" upon God in the heart that does not have to be verbal per se but it has to be born of the Spirit and from the heart only. There are no examples anywhere of a "sinners" prayer as commonly taught in the IFB sales classes. Certainly the verses you quote are a calling upon God, anyone can see that, but the gist is that it must be a heart calling from inside, whether an outward verbalization occurs or not.

Once the heart calling occurs, then the verbal profession (to others) will come or it was not real.

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer at some point in their life but who never thought to warn their own loved ones of hell?

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer or who has "begun their relationship with Jesus" but when you show them from the Word something about sin like fornication or homo behavior they don't agree with it? Or that women cannot pastor, they don't agree with it?

I have met these types above 1000s of times to one who profess but never changed. They got some religion but never changed. This type of "calling" is what is in opposition here IMO.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

The very next verse gives your answer. I'm not too good at grammar, but I can compare scripture with scripture. The scriptures say that when one "believes", they "hath" everlasting life and they say that one cannot "call" until they've heard and believed.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 
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