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There must be some measure of confusion in the way Cloud puts forth matters regarding repentance, at least some of the time. I've noticed there have been several times Cloud has responded to people on this issue. It seems many read his thoughts on this, think he is promoting a form of Lordship Salvation, and write him about it. Cloud answers, saying he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation but in his attempt to clarify his view of repentance it seems many are yet confused and the cycle repeats itself.

I firmly believe repentance is necessary, too many leave this out. There is a line between those who say repentance means a full turning from sin before one can be saved, and biblical repentance. This line sometimes is blurred. Even trying to explain what Scripture says of repentance can be done in a manner that confuses people.

Cloud says he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation, but I've read some of his statements on repentance and I can see how some could come away thinking otherwise.

As for Clouds "arrogance" and such; it seems big Cloud supporters don't see it so much, those who like Cloud in general see it but mostly ignore it, but those unfamiliar with him often seem to be hit in the face with it. I've had many people I've pointed to an article by Cloud who said they couldn't get around his arrogance/pride/ego to get anything good from his article.

I like much of Cloud's stuff, especially his older stuff. While I still point some to his older material, I've found it counter productive to point them to his more recent writings.

On the point James raises, while I don't agree with a 100% ban on anything outside what a person gets in their church, I do believe much caution is in order. Outside material shouldn't be a persons main source of learning, which should come from Scripture reading and study and sermons and teachings at their church.

Any outside material which contradicts, even seemingly, what a persons pastor teaches should be discussed with the pastor for clarification on the matter. Unless a person is a mature Christian, and even then to an extent, it would be wise to ask the pastor for a list of books they believe would benefit them rather than just pulling a book from a shelf somewhere.

Unfortunately, the issue James raises is a serious problem in many churches. It seems some congregations are filled with those who will devour a Rick Warren book (just an example), apply that to their lives, but couldn't give even a basic idea of what their pastor has been preaching on.

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22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Well, Paul at least a couple times went to Jerusalem for clarification and edification on some issues, both for himself and for other churches. While our local church ought to be our primary place for such, we also have our personal Bible reading and study, family devotions, many attend conferences at other local churches, and when the Bible says to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, it doesn't say JUST study the Bible, (or at that time, the epistles and the OT)-I think it is open to studying ALL good writings. Certainly no man is always right, and when we go outside our local church, we ought to be very careful.

But also consider, say, the pastor-he doesn't get to hear preaching at the local church, he IS the preaching at the local church-Bible study is great and the most important, but as you know, even he needs edification from outside, as well.

I agree to a point Mike, but while we are admonished to study to show ourselves approved to God, I think this must revolve around the Scriptures, not the writings of man.  2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 

How many books, movies, programs and popular preachers constitute profane and vain babblings?

While Paul did go to Jerusalem, it was not to hear the preaching. It was to clear up false teaching from heretics that came down from that church. After all, the churches he was representing had been started by the church at Jerusalem. The church at Jerusalem was a solid teaching church. For Paul and the other churches to hear that their originating church now held to a works for salvation position was troubling and needed to be clarified because they were a sister church. This was not a trip to hear someone else preach, it was to clarify doctrinal issues.  Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 
 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 

Nothing wrong with a pastor going somewhere else to hear preaching and be edified by a brother pastor and church. But I was mainly pointing out the "supposed need" to get solid bible teaching from outside of our local church; as in the case of folks who constantly buy books, watch movies and programs of "so called" popular preachers. This is especially dangerous for newly saved folks who may not be grounded in The Word, it is easy to be led astray in this instance.

If our churches and pastors are doing what God called them to do, there is no need for members to be taught by outside sources. Fellowship between sister churches is a good thing, but our primary learning and teaching should come from our local church.

 Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 
 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 
 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 
 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 
 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 
 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 
 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 

I am not trying to be contentious here; I am just firmly convinced that our local churches are the place that God has designated to be our source of learning and edification. This is one reason why we are told that the older men should be teaching the younger and the older women should be teaching the younger women. Thus the teaching of the local church has been passed down through the ages intact, as God intended it to be. 

 2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 
 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Submitted respectfully in love and the spirit of edification in defence of the local church as, "The pillar and ground of the truth."

I guess from what I have written everyone can determine that I am a local church man through and through.  :D 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Cloud's current statement regarding repentance from 5/20/16 Friday Church News Notes:

PAUL'S DOCTRINE OF REPENTANCE (Friday Church News Notes, May 20, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - In Acts 26:13-20, the Apostle Paul recounted the ministry that Christ had given to him by revelation. He was sent to the Gentiles "to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God" by exhorting them "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:18, 20). Consider three lessons from this. First, repentance was at the very heart of Paul's ministry. His objective was not to get men merely to "believe" in Christ in a shallow sense, not just to get them to pray a "sinner's prayer," but to have them experience a radical turning by God's power. Second, we see that repentance must issue in faith (Acts 26:18). Repentance alone does not save; it must be accompanied by faith. In Acts 20:21 Paul described salvation as "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Third, repentance results in a change of life (Acts 26:20). Paul preached the same thing as John the Baptist in the matter of repentance (Mat. 3:8). Some preachers today call this doctrine of repentance a "lordship" or even a works salvation, but that is a slander. How can it be wrong to follow Paul's doctrine of repentance? Those who don't like it need to examine their own faith and trade their man-made "quick prayerism" tradition for the pure Word of God. Biblical repentance is not works. It is not a change of life; it is a dramatic change of mind toward God that results in a change of life. Charles Spurgeon wisely commented, "Do you imagine that the gospel is magnified, or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Saviour, while they are wedded to their idols and their hearts are still in love with sin? If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."  

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
2 hours ago, John81 said:

Cloud's current statement regarding repentance from 5/20/16 Friday Church News Notes:

PAUL'S DOCTRINE OF REPENTANCE (Friday Church News Notes, May 20, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - In Acts 26:13-20, the Apostle Paul recounted the ministry that Christ had given to him by revelation. He was sent to the Gentiles "to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God" by exhorting them "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:18, 20). Consider three lessons from this. First, repentance was at the very heart of Paul's ministry. His objective was not to get men merely to "believe" in Christ in a shallow sense, not just to get them to pray a "sinner's prayer," but to have them experience a radical turning by God's power. Second, we see that repentance must issue in faith (Acts 26:18). Repentance alone does not save; it must be accompanied by faith. In Acts 20:21 Paul described salvation as "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Third, repentance results in a change of life (Acts 26:20). Paul preached the same thing as John the Baptist in the matter of repentance (Mat. 3:8). Some preachers today call this doctrine of repentance a "lordship" or even a works salvation, but that is a slander. How can it be wrong to follow Paul's doctrine of repentance? Those who don't like it need to examine their own faith and trade their man-made "quick prayerism" tradition for the pure Word of God. Biblical repentance is not works. It is not a change of life; it is a dramatic change of mind toward God that results in a change of life. Charles Spurgeon wisely commented, "Do you imagine that the gospel is magnified, or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Saviour, while they are wedded to their idols and their hearts are still in love with sin? If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."  

 

 

Just a little teaser (since I will be away from home for the next few days, and will likely be unable to answer any questions during that time) --

 

I myself do not wholly agree with Brother Cloud's position on repentance as presented in the above article.

 

(However, I myself still would prefer that Brother Cloud's RSS feed might be included on the forum; for I believe that his depth of Bible study, even when I do not fully agree with his conclusions, is very needed within the fundamentalist movement of our time.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I personally have been coming to this site less often because I don't see Cloud's feed on here any longer. I believe Cloud makes some great points that should be posted here and discussed.

Edited by MatthewDiscipleOfGod
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