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Rapture and Anti-Christ


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4 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Come on John, you know it doesn't have a verse.  However, Matthew 13 and 14 and Romans 1 shed some light on God's mercy towards children.  

Like I said, I do not pretend to know when God considers a child accountable for their actions.  I read somewhere that Jewish tradition was around 12 but doubt it's bible.

Where Scripture is silent we can only speculate. It's safer to simply say we trust God with children as we do with adults than to put forth an emphatic statement that's not in Scripture.

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21 hours ago, Invicta said:

Not sure what your point is here.

My point in brief is that in the AV and other old English translations the Hebrew word 'shol' is translated as 'the grave'  when it is in reference to the Old Testament saints going there, but when it is in reference to sinners going there it is translated as 'hell' or 'the pit', so if 'shol' were translated consistently as 'hell' then we have saints and sinner all going down to 'hell'. This at first sounds all wrong and alarming, but on closer inspection it is supported by other scripture and also makes more biblical sense.

And to understand this principle point makes other doctrine and scripture easier to understand. That is the gist of my argument.

So much as I hate to, seemingly weaken, the traditional doctrine of hell, by going along with the idea of translating 'hades' and 'shol' as Hades, there I stand, for the simple reason that 'hades' and 'shol' are clearly the same place (I haven't seen this disputed) and the English word Hell (it's original meaning) means the same as the Greek word 'Hades' (or as close as any two words from different languages can do) Like I said before the English word means 'the coverer' or 'to cover'. But now in the 21st century the word 'hell' is synonymous with fire and torment.

In Scripture we have hell/hades at some point being cast into the lake of fire, we have hell/hades at some point being set on fire. De 32:22 Re 20:14 

 

 

 

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On 3/10/2016 at 11:41 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

On the other hand, John 14:1-3 might (?) be used to indicate the location unto which we will go with the Lord when He receives us unto himself.


First, I would respectfully say that God's word DOES tell us the location of where we will go with the Lord when He receives us unto Himself.
1. Jesus Himself said He is preparing a place for us in His Father's house
2. Jesus Himself said "if I go" well, we do know He DID go, and we do know where He went.. He is currently at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places (Eph 8:20) in heaven (Acts 7:55) and many other verses tell us where He went and where He now currently is.
    He said He will ascend to His Father (John 20:17)
3. So we have setlled where Jesus went and where Jesus is, this is the same place He is preparing a place for us at. 

We can surely deduce that Heaven (where Jesus and God are and where Jesus ascended to) is where His Father's house is!
It would make no sense at all to say His Father's house is anywhere other than heaven, since Jesus Himself said He was going there (and the Bible gives plenty of reference to that place being heaven), and that is where Jesus Himself is preparing a place for us in His Father's house.
Also He tells us to "seek those things which are above" (Col. 3:1) and in the same verse specifies this is where He is sitting on the right hand of God.

3. This is the same place Jesus was before He came the first time (John 3:13) and that place is heaven.

On 3/10/2016 at 0:15 PM, Invicta said:

May be used, but it doesn't say where his father's house will be located.

Just wondering how you can say "it doesn't say where his father's house will be located"???
If (and it IS true) Jesus ascended to heaven
and IF (and it IS true) that Jesus is currently at the right hand of the Father in heaven
and IF (and it IS true) Jesus Himself is currently preparing a place for us
HOW could He be making prepartations in His Father's house anywhere else than heaven? Since we have already deduced in fact that Jesus IS currently in heaven at the right hand of God!
And IF you believe He is preparing a place somewhere else.. why then does God's holy word say this in Colossians 3:1  "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

I kinda maybe think I know where this argument may have been heading... But the fact of the matter is God's word is important and so important that we need to revere Him and His word literally. 
He said He was going to His Father, He said His Father is in heaven, He word says He is at the right hand of the Father IN HEAVEN.
So obviously He is preparing this place, and He is IN heaven as He is preparing it.


Another important thing to note, is Jesus said He will "receive" us "unto Himself"
That does NOT say he will physically come to earth... it says He will come again... but doesn't say come to the earth, it says the REASON for coming is to receive us unto Himself. 
It well fits with 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We see there we shall be caught up together in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air!

This cannot be the same event as this:
Zech 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

In one event (the rapture/ the catching up) occurs in the clouds and in the air.
The other event (the actual second coming to earth) shows Jesus literally standing upon the earth on the mount of Olives.

Which one of those above (1 Thes. 4:17 OR Zech 14:4) sounds more like He is "receiving" us "unto Himself"? 

John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

John 6:62 "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God"

Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Ephesians 8:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places"

Colossians 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

 

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22 minutes ago, Ronda said:


First, I would respectfully say that God's word DOES tell us the location of where we will go with the Lord when He receives us unto Himself.
1. Jesus Himself said He is preparing a place for us in His Father's house
2. Jesus Himself said "if I go" well, we do know He DID go, and we do know where He went.. He is currently at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places (Eph 8:20) in heaven (Acts 7:55) and many other verses tell us where He went and where He now currently is.
    He said He will ascend to His Father (John 20:17)
3. So we have setlled where Jesus went and where Jesus is, this is the same place He is preparing a place for us at. 

We can surely deduce that Heaven (where Jesus and God are and where Jesus ascended to) is where His Father's house is!
It would make no sense at all to say His Father's house is anywhere other than heaven, since Jesus Himself said He was going there (and the Bible gives plenty of reference to that place being heaven), and that is where Jesus Himself is preparing a place for us in His Father's house.
Also He tells us to "seek those things which are above" (Col. 3:1) and in the same verse specifies this is where He is sitting on the right hand of God.

3. This is the same place Jesus was before He came the first time (John 3:13) and that place is heaven.

AMEN!

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1 Thess 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Acts 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, twomen stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

It couldn't be clearer.  Jesus will come back the same way he went.  He will descend from heaven and we will meet him in the air.
 

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10 hours ago, Invicta said:

1 Thess 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Acts 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, twomen stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

It couldn't be clearer.  Jesus will come back the same way he went.  He will descend from heaven and we will meet him in the air.
 

OR we could meet him in the air and then he could descend from heaven to judge the earth.

If we meet him in the air as in being caught up, we will need to be Spiritual when we meet him. When he comes back to earth he will be Spiritual, we may be the clouds of heaven.

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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20 hours ago, Ronda said:


First, I would respectfully say that God's word DOES tell us the location of where we will go with the Lord when He receives us unto Himself.
1. Jesus Himself said He is preparing a place for us in His Father's house
2. Jesus Himself said "if I go" well, we do know He DID go, and we do know where He went.. He is currently at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places (Eph 8:20) in heaven (Acts 7:55) and many other verses tell us where He went and where He now currently is.
    He said He will ascend to His Father (John 20:17)
3. So we have setlled where Jesus went and where Jesus is, this is the same place He is preparing a place for us at. 

We can surely deduce that Heaven (where Jesus and God are and where Jesus ascended to) is where His Father's house is!
It would make no sense at all to say His Father's house is anywhere other than heaven, since Jesus Himself said He was going there (and the Bible gives plenty of reference to that place being heaven), and that is where Jesus Himself is preparing a place for us in His Father's house.
Also He tells us to "seek those things which are above" (Col. 3:1) and in the same verse specifies this is where He is sitting on the right hand of God.

3. This is the same place Jesus was before He came the first time (John 3:13) and that place is heaven.

Just wondering how you can say "it doesn't say where his father's house will be located"???
If (and it IS true) Jesus ascended to heaven
and IF (and it IS true) that Jesus is currently at the right hand of the Father in heaven
and IF (and it IS true) Jesus Himself is currently preparing a place for us
HOW could He be making prepartations in His Father's house anywhere else than heaven? Since we have already deduced in fact that Jesus IS currently in heaven at the right hand of God!
And IF you believe He is preparing a place somewhere else.. why then does God's holy word say this in Colossians 3:1  "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

I kinda maybe think I know where this argument may have been heading... But the fact of the matter is God's word is important and so important that we need to revere Him and His word literally. 
He said He was going to His Father, He said His Father is in heaven, He word says He is at the right hand of the Father IN HEAVEN.
So obviously He is preparing this place, and He is IN heaven as He is preparing it.


Another important thing to note, is Jesus said He will "receive" us "unto Himself"
That does NOT say he will physically come to earth... it says He will come again... but doesn't say come to the earth, it says the REASON for coming is to receive us unto Himself. 
It well fits with 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We see there we shall be caught up together in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air!

This cannot be the same event as this:
Zech 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

In one event (the rapture/ the catching up) occurs in the clouds and in the air.
The other event (the actual second coming to earth) shows Jesus literally standing upon the earth on the mount of Olives.

Which one of those above (1 Thes. 4:17 OR Zech 14:4) sounds more like He is "receiving" us "unto Himself"? 

John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

John 6:62 "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God"

Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Ephesians 8:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places"

Colossians 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

 

>>I kinda maybe think I know where this argument may have been heading...<< Hi, I have hear people before saying that there is nowhere in the Bible which says that Christians will go to heaven, what do you think this sort of argument is going?

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On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 0:35 AM, Invicta said:

Not sure what your point is here.

Basic Point is, All saints and sinners who died under old covenant went to 'hell', but some rested there, such as Samuel the prophet, those who Job mentioned, and presumably the other godly old testament saints, who we are told went down to 'hell'.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

>>I kinda maybe think I know where this argument may have been heading...<< Hi, I have hear people before saying that there is nowhere in the Bible which says that Christians will go to heaven, what do you think this sort of argument is going?

I used to have a teacher who taught that.  I also know someone who believes that.  Actually he turned up at our service last Sunday morning.  He always collars someone after the service, usually the preacher, and gives them his views.  I told him to "give it a rest, we know your views.  Please keep them to yourself.  You are welcome to come if you listen to the preaching, but don;t come to spread your views."

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10 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I used to have a teacher who taught that.  I also know someone who believes that.  Actually he turned up at our service last Sunday morning.  He always collars someone after the service, usually the preacher, and gives them his views.  I told him to "give it a rest, we know your views.  Please keep them to yourself.  You are welcome to come if you listen to the preaching, but don;t come to spread your views."

I am guessing that they somehow think that if their is only one church and one heaven and one earth, we need to go to one or the other, so they decide it must be earth, because they can imagine that.

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7 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hi, I have hear people before saying that there is nowhere in the Bible which says that Christians will go to heaven

"old pilgrim": Yes, you likely HAVE heard people say  that before, that there is (supposedly) nowhere in the Bible which says that Christians go to heaven. "People" say all KINDS of things.. especially undiscerning/unsaved people. But what does GOD have to say about it? That's the only answer that truly matters!  God's answer is found in God's word!

Romans 3:3-4 "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"  "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." 

God's word tells us exactly where "Christians" (those who have accepted and believed upon Jesus alone for salvation in the age of grace) will go... I gave many examples in the last post. "People" can either choose of their own free will to believe God's word or to reject it. I can't make anyone believe His word, no-one can force another person to believe God's word. Sorry, I can't help you with what "people say", only tell you that the answers are found in multiple verses in the Bible. 

 

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On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Invicta said:
On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Invicta said:

I used to have a teacher who taught that.  I also know someone who believes that.  Actually he turned up at our service last Sunday morning.  He always collars someone after the service, usually the preacher, and gives them his views.  I told him to "give it a rest, we know your views.  Please keep them to yourself.  You are welcome to come if you listen to the preaching, but don;t come to spread your views."

Arent you being a little authoritarian there?

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying....

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

I would take it that 'any man' can have his say in the assembly (or pulpit if there is one) as long as there is some order. when this order isn't practiced, then revealed truth (or error) isn't aired, if the congregation are in Christ and hearing from the Spirit, then error will not take root, but if any man happens to have a modicum of truth, then the church can be edified and grow. As it is in most churches, the pulpit is guarded like like a prison door, and most of the brethren don't have much opportunity for airing any doctrine. Trying this in practice can seem to create a somewhat chaotic atmosphere at times, but in churches which do this, there does seem to be more simple local evangelism and souls saved.

 

Quote


 

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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