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Rapture and Anti-Christ


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14 minutes ago, beameup said:

OK, so the intro says that you have 490 years to accomplish this entire prophecy (70 x shabuwa`)

Verse 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week shabuwa`: and in the midst of the week shabuwa`  he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This synchronizes with 2 Thes 2:3b-4  "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

So this is your 100% proof that the trib is 7 years?  Where does it say that the entire week is called the tribulation?   I believe the tribulation is within the week, but it is a stretch to conclude it lasts the entire 7 years. What does Matthew 24:29 mean?  It is called the book of revelation because it reveals the prophecies. Jesus comes back after the tribulation. This is what a clear verse looks like.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man

The only thing that makes people question it is the simplicity and their previous beliefs. People don't like to admit they are wrong, nor do they like to admit they had been tricked or decieved. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

So when is does he come back?  after the tribulation ends.

When does the tribulation end?  shortly after the midst of the week

Edited by Matthew24
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13 hours ago, beameup said:

The "Abomination of Desolation" occurred in 167 B.C., so when Jesus mentions this it has already occurred and his audience knew exactly what he was talking about.  They also knew that he was speaking of yet another "Abomination of Desolation" that would occur in the future.

In 167 B.C. the desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and sacrificed swine on the altar).  This is referred to by Daniel in chapter 11.   Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication [rededication of the Temple following ritual cleansing] and it was winter. John 10:22    The Romans did no such thing.

The FUTURE "Abomination of Desolation" is referred to in Daniel 9:27 & 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:57 & 6:7, Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14.  Paul refers to this in 2 Thess 2. 

The first "abomination of desolation" is a matter of historical record.  The second has not occurred yet. I do understand.

No you don't understand.  The abomination of tribulation was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem as Luke tells us.

Luke 21: 20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Daniel refers to this: Antiochus returned to attack Egypt and the Roman fleet had got there and the Roman ambassador confronted Antiochus and drew a line in the sand (you may have heard of that expression) telling him that if he crossed that line he would be at war with Rome.

Daniel 11:29  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The arms were the Roman arms, They they were the Romans Antiochus did not make the sactuary desolate as did the Romans.  Josephus gives only two desolations, the first by the Babyloniand and the second by Rome.  "They" were the Romans Antiochus was not a "They" but a "He".

 


 
 

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1 minute ago, Matthew24 said:

So this is your 100% proof that the trib is 7 years?  Where does it say that the entire week is called the tribulation?   I believe the tribulation is within the week, but it is a stretch to conclude it last the entire 7 years. Why can't does Matthew 24:29 mean?  It is called the book of revelation because it reveals the prophecies. Jesus comes back after the tribulation. This is what a clear verse looks like.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man

The only thing that makes people question it is the simplicity and their previous beliefs. People don't like to admit they are wrong, nor do they like to admit they had been tricked or decieved. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

So when is does he come back?  after the tribulation ends.

When does the tribulation end?  shortly after the midst of the week

Daniel's Prophecy is the key.  It lays out a 490 year program, and these can be verified by the Bible and archaeological discoveries.  Now, Daniel breaks everything down into "weeks" of years.  The last "week" is the Tribulation, however, the last 1/2  (3 1/2 yrs) is the "Day of the Lord", "Day of Wrath", "Great Tribulation", "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah 30:7 

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On 2/16/2016 at 4:27 PM, Matthew24 said:

Like the gap theory, and really I don't have time to go into great detail. I don't believe Scofield Bibles are good, nor do I believe the man was genuine. Just wanted to put that out there. You can research and come to your own conclusion, but my research tells me he's a fraud. Sam Adams has a great sermon series about scofield. 

I have a friend who has a Scofiled bible, he has had it since he was saved, he said I could borrow it if he can find it.

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So you believe Daniel is clearer than Revelation?   Get in the NT. The Day of the Lord, Day of wrath = The second coming.   Do a study of the "Day of the Lord" and look at the similarities between Matthew 24, Rev 6 etc.   There isn't any doubt....Gods wrath is poured out on man after the 2nd coming....to end the week. :)

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4 minutes ago, beameup said:

Daniel's Prophecy is the key.  It lays out a 490 year program, and these can be verified by the Bible and archaeological discoveries.  Now, Daniel breaks everything down into "weeks" of years.  The last "week" is the Tribulation, however, the last 1/2  (3 1/2 yrs) is the "Day of the Lord", "Day of Wrath", "Great Tribulation", "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah 30:7 

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

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9 minutes ago, Invicta said:

No you don't understand.  The abomination of tribulation was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem as Luke tells us.

Luke 21: 20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Daniel refers to this: Antiochus returned to attack Egypt and the Roman fleet had got there and the Roman ambassador confronted Antiochus and drew a line in the sand (you may have heard of that expression) telling him that if he crossed that line he would be at war with Rome.

Daniel 11:29  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The arms were the Roman arms, They they were the Romans Antiochus did not make the sactuary desolate as did the Romans.  Josephus gives only two desolations, the first by the Babyloniand and the second by Rome.  "They" were the Romans Antiochus was not a "They" but a "He".

 


 
 

Like I said, the Romans never committed the "abomination of desolation".  Each time the Temple is polluted by the presence of Gentiles, there must be a ritual cleansing. The abomination committed by Antiochus in 167 BC required the Temple cleansing and it is recorded.  The Romans simply tore down the Temple in 70AD, they did not "desecrate" it. Now, Antichrists armies will be surrounding Jerusalem, and the residents are informed to flee the city.  The Antichrist also sets himself up in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped as God.

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14 hours ago, beameup said:

The "Abomination of Desolation" occurred in 167 B.C., so when Jesus mentions this it has already occurred and his audience knew exactly what he was talking about.  They also knew that he was speaking of yet another "Abomination of Desolation" that would occur in the future.

In 167 B.C. the desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and sacrificed swine on the altar).  This is referred to by Daniel in chapter 11.   Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication [rededication of the Temple following ritual cleansing] and it was winter. John 10:22    The Romans did no such thing.

The FUTURE "Abomination of Desolation" is referred to in Daniel 9:27 & 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:57 & 6:7, Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14.  Paul refers to this in 2 Thess 2. 

The first "abomination of desolation" is a matter of historical record.  The second has not occurred yet. I do understand.

I didn't think Herod was alive in 167 B.C.

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The command to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple was given by Cyrus.  

Isaiah 44: 26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
 

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28 minutes ago, beameup said:

Like I said, the Romans never committed the "abomination of desolation".  Each time the Temple is polluted by the presence of Gentiles, there must be a ritual cleansing. The abomination committed by Antiochus in 167 BC required the Temple cleansing and it is recorded.  The Romans simply tore down the Temple in 70AD, they did not "desecrate" it. Now, Antichrists armies will be surrounding Jerusalem, and the residents are informed to flee the city.  The Antichrist also sets himself up in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped as God.

The word is desolate not desecrate.  The Romans desolated the temple.  It is still desolate today.

Luke 21: 20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

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2 hours ago, beameup said:

This period is covered in Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27.  A major work (book) was done on this by Sir Robert Anderson in the 1800s entitled "The Coming Prince".... FACT  http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/The.Coming.Prince.html

Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918) was converted to Christ at the age of nineteen and almost immediately began to preach in his native Dublin where he trained for a legal profession at Trinity College. He became a respected member of the Irish Home Office and an expert on criminal investigation. In 1888, he was summoned to Scotland Yard, London, to serve as Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, an office he filled with distinction until retirement in 1896. At his retirement, he was knighted by Queen Victoria; and in 1901, King Edward VII made him Knight Commander. In the midst of all his many duties, he managed to gain a profound knowledge of the Bible, preach in various conferences, and write seventeen books.

There are several references in the Bible which relate to 3 1/2 years, which is the time period of the first half of the Tribulation or the second half (Great Tribulation).  Keep in mind that the 360 day "Babylonian" calendar is used and that there were 3 "decrees" concerning the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezra, Nehemiah) but only the last one meets all the "criteria" of the prophecy.  Calculations can then be made which gives you the exact date when Jesus presented himself as Messiah, by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. :)  The last part of the prophecy covers the Tribulation period (a shabuwa` or "seven" - ie: 7 years), which ends "the times of the Gentiles" and ushers in the Millennial Kingdom. The Hebrew shabuwa` is the key (ie: "weeks" of years).

I was loaned Anderson's book several years ago and read it and then found I had it on my computer on a  CD entitled The Master Christian Library.  I had to stop using it as it used Adobe Reader and wouldn't work on any version later the Adobe 4.  If I remember correctly Anderson said that Jesus would come back in mid tribulation and also at the end of the tribulation, and perhaps other times as well.  

Edited by Invicta
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3 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

In my humble, unbiased, and correct opinion, there is a shift in doctrine because the view that the saints will never see the antichrist is easily refuted. 

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

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39 minutes ago, John81 said:

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

Yes I am...but as I have already stated. I don't believe it is 3.5 exact....just over 3.5. not sure after that. 

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

There really isn't a clear verse that says that the antichrist will appear before the rapture. It is only revealed in the chronology of the verses. For example:  Revelation And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Who else would the antichrist make war with if there is only unsaved people here? lol

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6 hours ago, John81 said:

What I didn't want at all in this thread was the constant distraction of this, that and the other end time view being presented as an alternative to the pre-trib rapture view. What I was, and still am looking for, is help from those who do hold a pre-trib rapture view (or even a mid-trib rapture view if such pertains to the question at hand).

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Brother John,

I am not certain that I wish to engage with the "this, that and the other end time view" controversy that has been happening in this thread.  However, I did wish to answer you question concerning what my position is, being a pre-tribulational rapturist.  I would hold the following "order" of events:

1.  The "mystery of iniquity" being "already" at work. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

1.  The "falling away." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

2.  "He who now letteth [withholdeth]" being "taken out of the way." (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8)  (Note: I believe that this one who withholds must be a singular individual (as per the singular pronoun "he") who is empowered by God to hold back the power of iniquity in the world.  As such, I believe that this One is God the Holy Spirit specifically in His role as the permanent Indweller of the New Testament believers of the New Testament church.  Even so, I believe that this will occur at the "our gathering together" unto Christ through the "catching-up," as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.)  (Note 2: I further believe that when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way," He will still be present to convict the hearts of unbelievers on the earth thereafter, but that He will no longer permanently indwell believers thereafter.)

2.  The revealing of "that man of sin," "the son of perdition." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  (Note: I believe that this revealing will occur specifically by the act wherein the "man of sin" will "confirm the covenant with many for one week," as per Daniel 9:27.)

3.  The "day of Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3)  (Note: I believe that this "day of Christ" is "the great day of His wrath," as per Revelation 6:16-17, that is -- the seven year period of God's judgment upon the whole earth that is commonly called the Tribulation Period.)

4.  The "man of sin" sitting "in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," employing "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish." (2 Thessalonians 2:4, 9-12)  (Note: I believe that this will occur at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation Period, whereat the "man of sin" will "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abomination" will "make it desolate," as per Daniel 9:27.)  (Note 2: I further believe that this is time at which the Lord God will send forth the "strong delusion," wherein He will cause the lost of the world to believe the lie of the "man of sin" that he is god, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.)

5.  The "man of sin" being consumed and destroyed "with the brightness" of Christ's Second Coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
 

7 hours ago, John81 said:

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

Concerning this question, I cannot honestly answer it because I myself have not encountered this "shift."

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