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Rapture and Anti-Christ


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3 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Thanks for the complement

If you do a search through Paul's letters, you will find he doesn't use the phases "Temple of God"  and "Temple of the Holy Spirit" to mean anything  BUT the Church, unless this is the exception.  

 

Well wouldn't it make more sense to understand it as the literal Temple in Jerusalem?

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Just now, wretched said:

Well wouldn't it make more sense to understand it as the literal Temple in Jerusalem?

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

I understand sir but will you consider that this is a stretch. Regardless of the terminology or whether it will be the Temple of God to the Lord (which it certainly will not be), it will still be the Temple to all the unsaved on earth, jews included. Some 99+% of people.

In addition, satan nor his principalities could never enter the real Temple and certainly not the Holy of Holies when the temple was being used truly as the Temple of God. The temple referred to in 2Thess HAS TO BE an imitation, just as the beast will be an imitation.

Edited by wretched
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That's true, and according to some Orthodox Jews they have been able to determine some of the priestly line and would be able to staff the rebuilt temple.

The groups preparing for a rebuilt temple are intent upon seeing the temple rebuilt and immediately put into operation with their approved priests, sacrifices and their interpretation of right conduct before God. If they achieve this, many will accept it and join in or give support.

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7 hours ago, John81 said:

Bringing the concept of the removing of the Spirit touches upon this matter in a couple of ways.

Just as most pre-trib rapture folks once said the anti-christ would be unknown to pre-rapture Christians, most also once said the Holy Spirit would be removed from the earth at the Rapture, yet now many say only the restraining effects of the Holy Spirit will be removed. Either way, the result most often spoken of in connection with this would be the same.

Considering the anti-christ first appears as a "good guy" couldn't it be possible for him to rise to international recognition prior to the rapture? Even then, I suppose, there would be the question as to whether Christians would recognize him as the anti-christ or not.

Do these matters have any connection to the seemingly growing move of some pre-trib rapture folks moving to a mid-trib rapture position? Or are these separate matters?

I cannot answer your end question either John. The mid trib idea goes directly against the "thief in the night" Jesus spoke of. Not even the Angels of Heaven will know when so how could the mid trib idea have an ounce of merit?? All those born again will be able to count the days. I don't get that idea at all

.......enter Mike.....again :)

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7 hours ago, Invicta said:

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

The Levitical priests have already been trained by the Temple Institute.  The Jews keep accurate records (yes, even for 2,000 years).  Additionally, DNA has been utilized to confirm true Levitical priests.  As well, the Temple Institute has not only created exact replicas of all the priestly clothing, but has produced all the furnishings within the Temple.

I realize that you are influenced by "replacement theology" (Supersessionism) and all the accompanying "doctrines", such as "preterism", "symbolization" of scripture; however, God will fulfill his promises to Israel concerning the Kingdom.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4
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Where does it say that the Holy Spirit will be removed? II Thess. 2:7 doesn't say the "he" is the Holy Ghost. People have assumed that the "he" of the passage is the Holy Ghost but nothing in the context suggests that it is. You have to read that into the passage based on a preconceived theological belief. 

Actually, following the rules of English grammar the "he" in the passage is the the mystery of iniquity (aka the man of sin) but really, that doesn't make much sense.

IMO, "he" that withholds is Michael and he will be taken out of the way at the rapture.

Daniel 10:20,21

[20] Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
[21] But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

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13 hours ago, beameup said:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

 Very ingenious posting a scripture which I had already explained

Well here is a challenge for you.  Do a search of Paul's epistles, and tell where he uses the phrase temple of God for anything but the church?  Well I don't suppose you will as you only seem to have a few stock scriptures like the JWs, so I will do it for you.  

1Co 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
(see above) shewing himself that he is God.

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Consider carefully the following verses. Forget your pre prpogrammed Scofiieldism and thik what they actually mean without trying to explain them away,

 
Ephesian 2:11 ¶  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments cained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;s16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
1 ¶  For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

 
There are a number of questions I can think that can be asked, but I will just ask Verse 19.  
Fellow citizens of Which Kingdom?
With which saints?
Which household of God?
1 Peter 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

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Only those courageous enough to question everything they have ever been taught can find truth. Most people are cowards, blinded, unwilling to think that they could be wrong. I'm not saying I am enlightened, just humble enough to look at all information with an open mind....and realizing the bible is the final authority. To me the real key is...

1. Scofield bible and it's doctrines 

If you aren't correct on who the elect is, or who are the real jews, you won't be correct in end times prophecy. 

We have been duped into believing in fairy tales.

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Daniel 11 describes the "abomination of desolation" which was a historical fact when Antiochus Epiphanes committed the act in the Holy of Holies.  It's recorded in 1 Maccabees.  

Daniel 12 describes the "abomination of desolation" which will be performed by the Antichrist in the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation.  Daniel 12:11

Matt 24:15 [Jesus speaking] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place [Holy of Holies], (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:14 [Jesus speaking] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

You know that you are a "preterist", and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilledPreterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".  Do you also reject the Millennium?  How about the Tribulation?  How about the Rapture?  Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?

Edited by beameup
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29 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

Only those courageous enough to question everything they have ever been taught can find truth. Most people are cowards, blinded, unwilling to think that they could be wrong. I'm not saying I am enlightened, just humble enough to look at all information with an open mind....and realizing the bible is the final authority. To me the real key is...

1. Scofield bible and it's doctrines 

If you aren't correct on who the elect is, or who are the real jews, you won't be correct in end times prophecy. 

We have been duped into believing in fairy tales.

Please do tell?

What extra revelation is contained in this scofield Bible?

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54 minutes ago, beameup said:

Daniel 11 describes the "abomination of desolation" which was a historical fact when Antiochus Epiphanes committed the act in the Holy of Holies.  It's recorded in 1 Maccabees.  

Daniel 12 describes the "abomination of desolation" which will be performed by the Antichrist in the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation.  Daniel 12:11

Matt 24:15 [Jesus speaking] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place [Holy of Holies], (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

No it wasn't.  There is only one abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, and that was still future when Jesus spoke.  Trouble is you don't understand.

Mark 13:14 [Jesus speaking] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:  Exactly " then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains"  shows that the tribulation was local on Judea.

You know that you are a "preterist", and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled.   

54 minutes ago, beameup said:

 

I am NOT a preterist.  If you ever read my posts when we had preterists on here you see that I disagreed with them, as it be clearly shewn that preterism was invented by the Jesuits as was futurism.  

and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled."  I am an historicist which is absolutely different from preterism Preterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".Well I don't accept replcement theology either  Do you also reject the Millennium?  In have always believed in historic pre millenniumism but the nonsense that you and others post is beginning to make me question if I was correct or not. How about the Tribulation? Which one?  There are several tribulations mentioned in scripture,  And although you keep saying it is for seven years, the only one scripture gives a time for is 10 days.  How about the Rapture? I beiieve that  we will meet the Lord in the air and the descend with him,  Rapture is not a scriture word, I think it was first used by the Irvingites and their Catholic Apostolic Church, at least that is the earliest I have found, but if you can find an earlier ref before say 1825, I will accept that, Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?  Mostly yes.  Which shows I am not preterist as they are literalists taking the temple to be the pre AD 70 temple..  Whereas I believe in accordance with Peter and Paul's teaching that the temple is the chursh and the book of Revelation is a progressive history of the church and its tribulations throughout history, mainly by your friends the RCC.    

 

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11 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I am NOT a preterist.  If you ever read my posts when we had preterists on here you see that I disagreed with them, as it be clearly shewn that preterism was invented by the Jesuits as was futurism.  

and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled."  I am an historicist which is absolutely different from preterism Preterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".Well I don't accept replcement theology either  Do you also reject the Millennium?  In have always believed in historic pre millenniumism but the nonsense that you and others post is beginning to make me question if I was correct or not. How about the Tribulation? Which one?  There are several tribulations mentioned in scripture,  And although you keep saying it is for seven years, the only one scripture gives a time for is 10 days.  How about the Rapture? I beiieve that  we will meet the Lord in the air and the descend with him,  Rapture is not a scriture word, I think it was first used by the Irvingites and their Catholic Apostolic Church, at least that is the earliest I have found, but if you can find an earlier ref before say 1825, I will accept that, Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?  Mostly yes.  Which shows I am not preterist as they are literalists taking the temple to be the pre AD 70 temple..  Whereas I believe in accordance with Peter and Paul's teaching that the temple is the chursh and the book of Revelation is a progressive history of the church and its tribulations throughout history, mainly by your friends the RCC.    

 

So historic pre-millennialism means, what? A literal future thousand year reign of Christ, or an allegorical  not-really 1000 years reign of Christ on earth, that started in the first century AD, and has been more than 1000 years and Christ is not reigning on earth and the Devil still is free to tempt the nations and definitely NOT sealed up?

Trinity is not found in the Bible, either, but the idea is, the same as the idea of the 'rapture'.

The problem with taking revelation as mostly symbolic, is that, who, then decides what is really true? Ultimately, it is the individual reader who interprets it, until it occurs, (or in your case, already has).  So very specifically-used terms like "a thousand years" repeated, what, 6 times in Rev 20, seems to make it pretty clear that it means just what it says, (and the words 'thousand years' are both quite literal in meaning and every time they are used, the particular Greek words, mean literally just that). If Satan isn't taken and bound by an angel and cast into a bottomless pit for a thousand years, then just what happens? Seems pretty literal.   I believe the only way we can consider some of revelation MAY be symbolic, is because it is being described by John who is seeing things from heaven, and thus, may be seeing the spiritual powers behind the activities, while on earth, we may perceive them differently. But that's only speculation at best-I don't know that what John sees differs in one iota from how man will see it on earth.

9 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

LOL. NO, NO, NO revelation. More like heresy.

Like the Gap Heresy, er, theory?

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