After 18 Years - Questioning Everything ...

[deafnva77]

Does it give you excuse for doubting that he exist? See, even you are sinning. That's what I mean. We are still in our old flesh.

[zealyouthguy]

And this becomes our excuse, does it not? Since we are all sinners, then things will be a mess until we are glorified. However, this is not what the Bible encourages. In fact, it commands us to become of one mind, one heart and one spirit, striving for the unity of the body. We see the Apostles striving for this and God working in very powerful ways to bring this about. Yes, we see hick-ups along the way. We see that Paul had to withstand Peter to his face (in Galatians). We see the struggles of the Corinthian church, etc. But we also see detailed for us the unity of the early church, the commonality of tradition and faith. Today we do not see these things and then we blame it on the fact that we are sinners and, thus, excuse it. Have we forgotten that the Bible commands us to strive for the faith ... to run the race ... to lay aside the sin that so easily besets us? We cannot simply say, we live in the flesh and that's that.

I see you keep bringing up "unity" as your sole measuring stick of what a Christian is, and then relating that to the church at Corinthians???

Are we reading the same Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 3:3 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 11:18 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

I seriously am a little lost here.

[questioning]

zealyouthguy,

Thank you for your response. I do appreciate it.

Your reasoning behind the Joshua 24 passage is faulty (imo) and I will try to explain. Let's look at the verse:

?And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.? (Jos 24:19-20 AV)

If there verse read this way (as follows) it would make sense with the rest of the teachings of Scripture:

... he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins, if ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods. Then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

It is so subtle that you might miss what I have done. I exchanged the period at the end of verse 19 for a comma so that the Lord has a just reason to not forgive the transgressions of the Israelites of that day. I.e. if they continue to serve strange gods and forsake the Lord then God will not forgive them. However, that is not how the verse reads. Yes, I know the original was in Hebrew (and I can read Hebrew), but the best of scholars all agree that a period belongs at the end of verse 19 (no comma to connect verse 19 to verse 20). Therefore, the Lord here is saying what He intends: He WILL NOT forgive their transgressions. When verse 20 starts out he is explaining the harm that will come to them (God will turn, hurt them and consume them) as a result of their following after strange gods.

Verse 19 just goes against the clear teaching of Scripture that God is ready and willing to forgive any and all who come to him. God even hated Esau ... before he was even born.

[questioning]

I see you keep bringing up "unity" as your sole measuring stick of what a Christian is, and then relating that to the church at Corinthians???

Are we reading the same Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 3:3 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 11:18 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

I seriously am a little lost here.

Again, I appreciate your responses. I would recommend that you read my long posts at the beginning. Unity was only a part of the issue and most of my responses about unity here were in respect to other people's responses in order to make a point. I have many questions that cause me to think there are many inconsistencies in the Scriptures.

If you, a man who has (and don't be offended by the use of this word, because we don't know anything but what you've written) supposedly spent time on the mission field, who are preaching to others and serving as an associate pastor, is having a hard time believing in God then I would urge you to immediately step down from your position.

I am not offended by your comments at all. Thank you for them. Just because I told you that I have been serving as an associate pastor does not mean that I am currently. I have not given all the details (my name, where I live, what I am doing now, etc). I was only trying to give enough to help people understand that I am not some atheist that has invaded this board and that I am not the "typical" lay person either, but am one that has spent the last 18 years studying the Bible, teaching its precepts and have even been a requested speaker in several states and in a few countries as well. Despite this, I am at a point in my life where I have questions, want to voice them honestly and hope to discover answers. The Bible tells us there is wisdom in a multitude of counsel.

[questioning]

Does it give you excuse for doubting that he exist? See' date=' even you are sinning. That's what I mean. We are still in our old flesh.[/quote']

Then you missed what I was saying previously. What you were saying (in your earlier post) does not match what we are to strive for according to the clear teaching of Scripture. While disunity and disputes will come, we are to strive for unity at all costs. However, most do not strive for this at all, but use the "flesh" and our "sin nature" as an excuse for why things are as they are.

[deafnva77]

I got what you are saying.. but just pointing out that even you have a problem.

I know that you think God must not be real if we can't agree on a scripture.

[Guest Guest]

Therefore' date=' we who are blood-bought and are a part of the universal church of God cannot get along (we fight, bicker and demand our own way while condemning all others as heretics and lost) violating clear teachings of Scripture while doing so. [/quote']


Hi, questioning. :smile Pardon me for asking, but the "universal church" of God is the IFB church, in your eyes? The RCC calls themselves the "universal church." I have never heard a Baptist say this, but I could very well stand corrected here. To my knowledge...I have been taught that the "universal church" can be explained as those saints "caught up" in the Rapture of the "true" church. That would mean, any "true" blood-bought Bible believing Christian, IMO.

[questioning]

Hello candlelight,

I theological terms the term "universal church" refers to all believers, every where and not just those of a local assembly. For example, the believers in Corinth were part of a local assembly (those believers that lived and worshiped in Corinth). They were also part of the universal church (the body of Christ) along with those at Galatia, Ephesus, Antioch, Jerusalem, etc. Each born-again believer is a part of the universal church (universal = everywhere) and should also be a part of a local assembly (the local church) where he or she can benefit that local body by using his or her gifts.

[zealyouthguy]

zealyouthguy,

Thank you for your response. I do appreciate it.

Your reasoning behind the Joshua 24 passage is faulty (imo) and I will try to explain. Let's look at the verse:



If there verse read this way (as follows) it would make sense with the rest of the teachings of Scripture:



It is so subtle that you might miss what I have done. I exchanged the period at the end of verse 19 for a comma so that the Lord has a just reason to not forgive the transgressions of the Israelites of that day. I.e. if they continue to serve strange gods and forsake the Lord then God will not forgive them. However, that is not how the verse reads. Yes, I know the original was in Hebrew (and I can read Hebrew), but the best of scholars all agree that a period belongs at the end of verse 19 (no comma to connect verse 19 to verse 20). Therefore, the Lord here is saying what He intends: He WILL NOT forgive their transgressions. When verse 20 starts out he is explaining the harm that will come to them (God will turn, hurt them and consume them) as a result of their following after strange gods.

Verse 19 just goes against the clear teaching of Scripture that God is ready and willing to forgive any and all who come to him. God even hated Esau ... before he was even born.

I am sorry, but it really doesn't that's why I didn't stop at verse 20, these were NOT people that were serving God, that is clear contextually, although they thought they were. In fact this was directly related to the sin of the false prophet Balaam that led the people of God astray, by telling Balak to send his women to them.

Read the rest of the chapter, did the people understand vs. 19 the way you did?

Joshua 24:23-27 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

No they didn't they knew and took it as they weren't serving God and that they needed to turn their heart to Him.

I really can't see how this verse, if read in context, could even be considered a contradiction to God's forgiveness and grace.

[Guest Guest]

Oh, alright. I understand. When I hear the word "universal" I start thinking of the whole world...lost and saved. Thank you for clarifying. My hubby and I joke around that the "universal church" will be the saints in the clouds at the Rapture. LOL. So this caught me off guard is all. Thanks for explaining what you meant as to "all believers" and not just the local assembly. :frog

[questioning]

I got what you are saying.. but just pointing out that even you have a problem.

I know that you think God must not be real if we can't agree on a scripture.

Why did you jump to that conclusion ("can't agree on scripture")? You didn't quote Scripture. You stated your thoughts.

[deafnva77]

Because when one is simply following a verse on modesty, One thinks it has to be a dress (loose fitting and all) while another think pants is modest. Another word, they are disagreeing on a scripture. Which you mention that got you confused (as if God was real, why can't everyone agree? better yet, why can't they focus on unity as God commanded). That's what I was pointing out. But never mind, I'll stay out of it.

In our modern world things do get confusing.

[questioning]

I really can't see how this verse, if read in context, could even be considered a contradiction to God's forgiveness and grace.

The point is this (and this is what you, as well as many others, appear to be missing): God makes one point and then moves on to another. Let's look at the verses again:

?And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.? (Jos 24:19-20 AV)

Here is the trust of it: Joshua says one thing and completes that thought. The thought is completed with a period. He then moves on to another thought. It is also concluded with a period. The first thought is this: You cannot serve the Lord. The colon tells us that Joshua is going to explain WHY they cannot serve the Lord. The reason why is as follows: He is a holy and a jealous God. The people hearing Joshua (and those of us reading the text) might ask the question, "Why does the fact that God is both holy and jealous make it so that we cannot serve Him?" Joshua has a prepared answer and the semi-colon shows that what follows is connected to the thought that God is holy and jealous: He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Here is the flow of the first thought summed up (or expanded ):

You cannot serve God. Why? Because He is both holy and jealous. Because He is holy and jealous He will not forgive your sins nor your transgressions.

That is all there is to the first point of Joshua's message. Now he starts another point. Joshua tells them about what COULD happen IF they forsake the Lord and serve strange gods:

then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

The first point (not forgiving) is not phrased as an "if" (unconditional), providing a means of escape, but phrased as a fact (he will not forgive) (unconditional). The second point is conditional stating what the Lord would do in their lives IF they forsook the Lord and went after strange gods.

There is quite a difference between a conditional and unconditional statement. If a parent says to their child, "I will not allow you to go out to play," then that is an unconditional statement of fact. This is indeed the parents will and purpose for the child. Notice that in the parents statement there is no conditional clause such as, "if you clean up your room I may change my mind." In the Joshua passage the Lord states His intended will: not to forgive their transgressions nor their sins. There is no conditional clause added. After the will of God is stated for the Israelites in Joshua's day Joshua then goes on to talk about what is conditional: whether the Lord will turn to do them harm or not. The condition is based upon whether Israel forsook the Lord and chased after strange God's.

Points one and two of Joshua's statement are two different, but related pronouncements.

[Guest Guest]

The reason Joshua told them they could not serve the Lord because he knew that they were wicked and not sincere about serving the Lord. If you look earlier in that chapter he says to them:

"Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."

So obviously they were serving other Gods as well at the time. They told him that they would serve the Lord, but he knew that they were insincere.

[questioning]

The reason Joshua told them they could not serve the Lord because he knew that they were wicked and not sincere about serving the Lord. If you look earlier in that chapter he says to them:

"Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."

So obviously they were serving other Gods as well at the time. They told him that they would serve the Lord, but he knew that they were insincere.

Again, the context is clear. However, this is NOT what Joshua says. He does not say, "Because you are not sincere and are currently serving other gods the Lord will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins." Again, the first sentence is unconditional (i.e. God refuses to forgive you). The second sentence is condition (i.e. continue to serve strange gods and God will turn against you for harm). It sort of reads like this: Not only will God not forgive you, but he is prepared to strike you down. Turn from serving the strange gods and God will not strike you down (but you are still not forgiven).

The thing is, we have seen the children of Israel run after strange gods at other times in the Bible. In most cases the Lord tells them quite plainly that if they would forsake their ways and return unto the Lord that He will receive them unto Himself. In most cases the "bad news" is followed by the "good news". However, in this case (Joshua 24:19-20) this is not what is stated. Bad news is given (He will NOT forgive) and then more bad news is promised on a conditional bases (IF they continue to serve strange gods).

For a God that changes not and is ALWAYS ready to forgive, here we see Him absolutely NOT willing to forgive.