Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted January 25, 2016 Members Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Wine IS a mocker Strong drink IS raging whosoever IS deceived THEREBY (the wine) IS NOT wise. No long, drawn-out, exhaustive explanation necessary. The verse speaks for itself. Regardless, NN is correct with his expository of Proverbs 20:1, exhaustive, or not. Edited January 25, 2016 by Standing Firm In Christ Pastor Scott Markle, LindaR and No Nicolaitans 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted January 25, 2016 Members Share Posted January 25, 2016 15 hours ago, wretched said: Look NN, I can tell you are a strong servant and have allot of patience with folks but I must disagree and do so in an agreeable way I pray. I appreciate what you are saying here and understand your motivation to say it but your post here is assumptive and contains allot of commentary to explain your point and still does not say that wine in itself is sinful, the verse indicates the abuse of it. As does every single other passage of Scripture against wine. There is one thing I learned way back in 1990 and I will not turn from it because it has always proved true to me. When any "doctrine" requires exhaustive explaining of Scripture with commentary or reverting to the useless "greek" that doctrine is ALWAYS man-made and not of God. This wine issue is a perfect example. Seems lately on this forum there have been others also but I will stick to the wine thing for now. I will never support the drinking of wine or any alcohol because I know God's warns so strongly against the weakness of man to abuse it. I know your stand against it is correct. What I have issue with is how you and others take your stands against it. That and that only is what I will not agree with because the Bible overwhelmingly does not support this way of standing against it. I could give literally 100 passages that support this but will leave it with just this. I Timothy 3: 1, This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2, A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;1 3, Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (so pastors are not to partake) 8, Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; (but deacons can have a little) Now is anyone here so brainwashed in the fables of men that you would think the Lord means grapejuice here? Once again, I do not support drinking but I will never agree that wine in itself is sinful. It is most definitely not or you make our Lord a sinner so please stop doing that. Well, when I first brought up the verse, all I did was post the verse by itself with nothing else; however, you refused to acknowledge what the verse plainly says. Therefore, I attempted to expound upon the verse for you. That was my only motivation. I have no irons in this fire myself. What I do find interesting is that when someone explains something from scripture (that you do agree with) with exhaustive explanation of scripture and commentary, you "Like" it. Yet that too falls under your definition of man-made doctrine. Now, since you are also opposed to the drinking of alcohol and believe that the Bible warns against it, perhaps you can explain the verses from 1 Timothy that you quoted and gave commentary on. Ensure to explain where those verses allow for only the deacons who can control their use of it according to your own previous statements. Looks like all deacons can drink a little to me...whether they can control themselves or not. Standing Firm In Christ and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wretched Posted January 25, 2016 Members Share Posted January 25, 2016 14 minutes ago, Oὐ Νικολαΐτης said: Well, when I first brought up the verse, all I did was post the verse by itself with nothing else; however, you refused to acknowledge what the verse plainly says. Therefore, I attempted to expound upon the verse for you. That was my only motivation. I have no irons in this fire myself. What I do find interesting is that when someone explains something from scripture (that you do agree with) with exhaustive explanation of scripture and commentary, you "Like" it. Yet that too falls under your definition of man-made doctrine. Now, since you are also opposed to the drinking of alcohol and believe that the Bible warns against it, perhaps you can explain the verses from 1 Timothy that you quoted and gave commentary on. Ensure to explain where those verses allow for only the deacons who can control their use of it according to your own previous statements. Looks like all deacons can drink a little to me...whether they can control themselves or not. You can win NN, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 21 hours ago, LindaR said: If you had read the article from the link I posted you would have your answer.4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent it from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation. In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage. I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Emmaus, PA). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject. [Editor: Natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing.] http://www.wayoflife.org/database/did_jesus_make_alcoholic_wine.htmlRon and I tried making our own non-alcoholic wine from fresh seedless red grapes in 2007. We squeezed the grapes in a juicer and then boiled them. We then filtered out the "lees" and sealed them in a couple of gallon-sized "seal a meal" bags so they were air tight. We then froze what we made. Since alcohol does not freeze, we left those 2 gallon-sized in the freezer for 2 years. They froze solid which means there was NO alcohol in those freshly squeezed grapes. When thawed after 2 years, that concentrate was extremely sweet....but there was not a trace of "ferment"/alcohol in either bag. Have you ever bought more grapes than you can eat in a few days? Some would already begun to ferment. Have you ever made sourdough bread from scratch? It is made by fermenting flour. You can make some types of bread such as pitta with fermenting the flour for just a few days. I once tried, fairly unsuccessfully. Then there is yougurt, Not quite the same but similar. How do you make yogurt from scratch? Someone I used to work with had an Italian mother. We got him to ask her how she made yogurt. She said you put some milk into a jug and cover it with a cloth and keep it in a warm place for three days, when it should be covered in a green mould. Boil a pint of milk and leave it to cool. Remove the mould from the fermented milk and add a tablespoon of that the the cooled milk. Stir and leave in a warm place overnight and the next day you will have yogurt. I have never tried it but have had some of her yogurt. There is no biblical evidence that they boiled the juice or froze it for two years. Actually freezing the juice for two years is no answer as that would have probably destroyed the yeast. I have never tried fermenting grapes but about 25 years or so ago, we were in France and a neighboring farmer was collecting windfalls of mirabelles. My wife started to help him but discarded the rotten ones. He told her to keep those as well. Then she asked him what he was collecting them for and he said "Wine." My wife stopped helping him after that. Actually I found out later that he then distilled them into eau de vie. As I posted earlier the only people in the bible who were forbidden wine were the Nazarites, during the period covered by their vows. The ban included vinegar (sour wine) and any part of the grape, skin, pip, pulp, juice. They were also forbidden to consume strong drink, alcohol made from other fruit than wine and the vinegar thereof. That would include malt vinegar. Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. This is the clearest testimony against your teaching, because new wine put into old wineskins would ferment and burst them, but but into new wineskins they would stretch with the fermentation. I am not advocating drinking, just showing the foolishness of your arguments. Final note. I think the priests were fobidden to take wine before they officiated, but I can't remember where in the scripture. wretched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LindaR Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, Invicta said: Have you ever bought more grapes than you can eat in a few days? Some would already begun to ferment. Have you ever made sourdough bread from scratch? It is made by fermenting flour. You can make some types of bread such as pitta with fermenting the flour for just a few days. I once tried, fairly unsuccessfully. Then there is yougurt, Not quite the same but similar. How do you make yogurt from scratch? Someone I used to work with had an Italian mother. We got him to ask her how she made yogurt. She said you put some milk into a jug and cover it with a cloth and keep it in a warm place for three days, when it should be covered in a green mould. Boil a pint of milk and leave it to cool. Remove the mould from the fermented milk and add a tablespoon of that the the cooled milk. Stir and leave in a warm place overnight and the next day you will have yogurt. I have never tried it but have had some of her yogurt. There is no biblical evidence that they boiled the juice or froze it for two years. Actually freezing the juice for two years is no answer as that would have probably destroyed the yeast. I have never tried fermenting grapes but about 25 years or so ago, we were in France and a neighboring farmer was collecting windfalls of mirabelles. My wife started to help him but discarded the rotten ones. He told her to keep those as well. Then she asked him what he was collecting them for and he said "Wine." My wife stopped helping him after that. Actually I found out later that he then distilled them into eau de vie. As I posted earlier the only people in the bible who were forbidden wine were the Nazarites, during the period covered by their vows. The ban included vinegar (sour wine) and any part of the grape, skin, pip, pulp, juice. They were also forbidden to consume strong drink, alcohol made from other fruit than wine and the vinegar thereof. That would include malt vinegar. Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. This is the clearest testimony against your teaching, because new wine put into old wineskins would ferment and burst them, but but into new wineskins they would stretch with the fermentation. I am not advocating drinking, just showing the foolishness of your arguments. Final note. I think the priests were fobidden to take wine before they officiated, but I can't remember where in the scripture. We have always finished eating all the grapes we buy. There are always some over-ripe and rotten (fermented) grapes in the bunch and I just toss them out. Yeast is destroyed at about 140-160 degrees F....so the yeast was destroyed before the juice concentrate was put in the freezer. We were not trying to "ferment" the grapes when we tried to make the wine. We accomplished that which we set out to do. Make unfermented wine (or grape juice). Using seal a meal bags is a far cry from putting the concentrate into old wineskins. There is no comparison. If you have never tried to make wine, then how do you know that what I am saying is foolishness? Leviticus 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses. Standing Firm In Christ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. When Jesus was speaking of the new wine (neos oinos)/new bottles, He was not speaking of allowing wine to ferment. Rather, He was speaking of preserving the wine in its unfermented state... both the wine, and the wine bottle are preserved. Old skins had the tendency to crack and tear due to age. The fact that Jesus did not say old wine was put in bottles shows it was not an aged wine. Men put freshly pressed grape juice, known as wine in that day, in new bottles to preserve it in its unfermented state. Invicta and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swathdiver Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 These "sipping saints" continue to ignore the plethora of verses throughout the God's Word against drinking to their shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 16 hours ago, LindaR said: We have always finished eating all the grapes we buy. There are always some over-ripe and rotten (fermented) grapes in the bunch and I just toss them out. Yeast is destroyed at about 140-160 degrees F....so the yeast was destroyed before the juice concentrate was put in the freezer. We were not trying to "ferment" the grapes when we tried to make the wine. We accomplished that which we set out to do. Make unfermented wine (or grape juice). Using seal a meal bags is a far cry from putting the concentrate into old wineskins. There is no comparison. If you have never tried to make wine, then how do you know that what I am saying is foolishness? Leviticus 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses. Sister Linda, I am sorry , I thought you were comparing your efforts to what you thought the Jews did. You didn't need to go to all that bother, you can buy UHT grape juice. In my young and foolish days I did make wine, from fruit and flowers, not from fermenting grapes but I did read about it at the time. But I did read all about it. Thanks for posting those verses, that was what I was thinking of. AS you will see they were only forbidden to drink wine and strong drink when they were going into the tabernacle. My point was that New Wine was alcoholic, not just grape juice. wretched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Christ Follower Posted January 26, 2016 Members Share Posted January 26, 2016 But, the verse does say "wine and strong drink" why would it say strong drink if it didn't mean alcoholic? wretched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted January 27, 2016 Members Share Posted January 27, 2016 Genesis 9: 20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. Yeast occurs naturally on the skin of the grape, and thus "wine" is naturally the product of grapes when they are pressed into juice. "Grape juice" immediately starts producing alcohol as a bi-product of fermentation. After fermentation, the "grape juice" is stable and preserved naturally by the alcohol content (about 10-15%). wretched 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted January 27, 2016 Administrators Share Posted January 27, 2016 Beameup, This is almost too easy. Go to a store and buy a cluster of grapes. Take them home and squeeze the juice out. Let the juice set for a few days and then come back and tell us what you have. swathdiver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted January 27, 2016 Members Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said: Beameup, This is almost too easy. Go to a store and buy a cluster of grapes. Take them home and squeeze the juice out. Let the juice set for a few days and then come back and tell us what you have. Vinegar? "Yeast is normally already present on the grapes, often visible as a powdery appearance of the grapes. The primary, or alcoholic fermentation can be done with this natural yeast, but since this can give unpredictable results depending on the exact types of yeast that are present, cultured yeast is often added to the must. One of the main problems with the use of wild ferments is the failure for the fermentation to go to completion, that is some sugar remains unfermented. This can make the wine sweet when a dry wine is desired. Frequently wild ferments lead to the production of unpleasant acetic acid (vinegar) production as a by product. " Wikipaedia. Edited January 27, 2016 by Invicta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted January 28, 2016 Members Share Posted January 28, 2016 13 hours ago, Invicta said: Vinegar? "Yeast is normally already present on the grapes, often visible as a powdery appearance of the grapes. The primary, or alcoholic fermentation can be done with this natural yeast, but since this can give unpredictable results depending on the exact types of yeast that are present, cultured yeast is often added to the must. One of the main problems with the use of wild ferments is the failure for the fermentation to go to completion, that is some sugar remains unfermented. This can make the wine sweet when a dry wine is desired. Frequently wild ferments lead to the production of unpleasant acetic acid (vinegar) production as a by product. " Wikipaedia. Since I have several posters on my "ignore" list, I usually cannot see their posts. I really don't understand why they are even permitted to respond to my posts, since they are on "ignore". Having lived in the major California wine producing area, I have a second-hand familiarity with the wine producing industry. The grapes that Noah grew, once "squeezed" for their juice, naturally produced wine. It's really a no-brainer. The yeast on the skin of the grape may produce wine, or it just might produce vinegar. Wine grapes are not "table grapes". The "wine grapes" are purposely sterilized and then a high-grade of a specific yeast is "introduced" to the pressed grapes (ie: "grape juice"). This then yields the desired product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted January 28, 2016 Members Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, beameup said: Since I have several posters on my "ignore" list, I usually cannot see their posts. I really don't understand why they are even permitted to respond to my posts, since they are on "ignore". Having lived in the major California wine producing area, I have a second-hand familiarity with the wine producing industry. The grapes that Noah grew, once "squeezed" for their juice, naturally produced wine. It's really a no-brainer. The yeast on the skin of the grape may produce wine, or it just might produce vinegar. Wine grapes are not "table grapes". The "wine grapes" are purposely sterilized and then a high-grade of a specific yeast is "introduced" to the pressed grapes (ie: "grape juice"). This then yields the desired product. "purposely sterilized," "specific yeast is introduced to the pressed grapes" In other words,... man's intervention is needed to make the alcohol. Jim_Alaska 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Christ Follower Posted January 28, 2016 Members Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said: "purposely sterilized," "specific yeast is introduced to the pressed grapes" In other words,... man's intervention is needed to make the alcohol. That's incorrect; yeast grows naturally on the grape. http://www.morethanorganic.com/fermentation But the Word of God still says "wine and strong drink" in Dt. 14:26. How do you reconcile that? Edited January 28, 2016 by Christ Follower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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