Does God allow alcohol?

[swathdiver]

1 hour ago, wretched said:

Turning water into wine hardly makes the Lord a sinner or the Bible would not say it.

You make a liar and a sinner out of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, Wretched.  Priests, and Christ is our high priest, are not to drink booze.  God provides for two curses on booze, including one who gives strong drink to his neighbor.  So you are in effect saying that Christ gave his neighbors strong drink and is therefore a sinner.  I could go on and on but that is enough.

Wretched, your theology does violence to the Word of God.  

[beameup]

Wine is wine.  To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23

If you are going to stick to Paul as the authority for "church doctrine", then stop "mixing doctrine" meant for another group/dispensation.

Edited January 24, 2016 by beameup

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Timothy has a stomach ailment.

Doctors do not prescribe alcohol for stomach ailments.  Alcohol would further damage the stomach.

 

That which Paul prescribed was not alcoholic.

[wretched]

8 hours ago, swathdiver said:

You make a liar and a sinner out of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, Wretched.  Priests, and Christ is our high priest, are not to drink booze.  God provides for two curses on booze, including one who gives strong drink to his neighbor.  So you are in effect saying that Christ gave his neighbors strong drink and is therefore a sinner.  I could go on and on but that is enough.

Wretched, your theology does violence to the Word of God.  

Wine is no more a sin in itself than a sword is a sin in itself. Try to get control of your emotions for just a moment and think please.

I do preach against alcohol in all forms and do believe that the average man cannot control it. BUT and this is a big BUTT, I refuse to deny the Word of God and feed lies to men MAKING Jesus a sinner out of ignorance and weakness like you are. Shame on you.

I know you can go on and on about fables fed to you by men but I can go on and on with Bible passages in context that clearly demonstrate wine in excess as sin and not wine in itself.

The only reason I posted in this thread was because I HATE those jibber jabbering falsehoods that really do make Jesus out as a sinner. Apart from that I could give 2-bits on the subject, its got nothing to do with me or mine.

I think you people need to truly think clearly in prayer before you keep calling our LORD a sinner.

 

 

[Christ Follower]

38 minutes ago, wretched said:

Wine is no more a sin in itself than a sword is a sin in itself. Try to get control of your emotions for just a moment and think please.

I do preach against alcohol in all forms and do believe that the average man cannot control it. BUT and this is a big BUTT, I refuse to deny the Word of God and feed lies to men MAKING Jesus a sinner out of ignorance and weakness like you are. Shame on you.

I know you can go on and on about fables fed to you by men but I can go on and on with Bible passages in context that clearly demonstrate wine in excess as sin and not wine in itself.

The only reason I posted in this thread was because I HATE those jibber jabbering falsehoods that really do make Jesus out as a sinner. Apart from that I could give 2-bits on the subject, its got nothing to do with me or mine.

I think you people need to truly think clearly in prayer before you keep calling our LORD a sinner.

 

 

You are correct. We as believers might not like what God says sometimes. But the wine in Scripture is/was alcoholic. 

[No Nicolaitans]

2 hours ago, wretched said:

Wine is no more a sin in itself than a sword is a sin in itself. 

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

[Invicta]

15 hours ago, LindaR said:

Is. 16:10; 65:8;

Is. 65:8;      8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Does not support your argument.  In the cluster overripe grapes will begin to ferment and that contain some alcohol, week at first then gradually getting stronger.  So it would be accurate to say that wine could be in the cluster.  

[Christ Follower]

And the vs Is 16:8 is part of God's judgment on Israel, it is in no way to mean that Israel was to abstain from it. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Christ Follower

[LindaR]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Is. 65:8;      8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Does not support your argument.  In the cluster overripe grapes will begin to ferment and that contain some alcohol, week at first then gradually getting stronger.  So it would be accurate to say that wine could be in the cluster.  

This verse is not speaking of over-ripe grapes...it is speaking of NEW WINE (the fruit of the vine).  It is one of the verses which speaks of fresh, unfermented juice of the grapes found in the cluster.

1 hour ago, Christ Follower said:

And the vs Is 16:8 is part of God's judgment on Israel, it is in no way to mean that Israel was to abstain from it. 

Isaiah 16 is not speaking of judgment on Israel.  The context is God's judgment on MOAB.  It is verse 10, not 8 which was quoted. 

Isaiah 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.

All you folks are doing is trying to justify the believer's drinking of alcoholic beverages.....just don't get drunk....right?  Drunkenness/intoxication begins with the first drink of beverage alcohol.

[wretched]

5 hours ago, Oὐ Νικολαΐτης said:

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Good verse and supports what I am saying 100%.

If you are looking to find a verse that makes wine itself a sin, good luck. However if you are looking to find verses to make abuse of wine a sin, you will find many and we are in agreement.

Selah

[Ronda]

Okay, this might look like I am trying to appease both sides of the fence... but most of you know (by now) I'm outspoken. So here's my 2 cents:

Yes, I use (multiple) Greek lexicons for the NT and Hebrew lexicons for the OT (when further clarity is desired).
(sorry, "Wretched, I still love you, in Christ, but I don't think they are "guessicons", they are "helpicons", lol)

In this case the word for "wine" in John 2 is "oinos" (Greek) and the definition means "wine" (English).
The same word for "wine" in 1 Tim. 5:23 is "oinos" (Greek) and the definition means "wine"(English).

BUT BUT BUT.... before anyone gets all excited and think that means alcoholicor non-alcoholic, let me also state what many Greek lexicons also denote on the word "oinos/wine"
"designate the juice of the grape in all its stages"

This makes sense when you think about it. For example... if I were to say to my favortie home health aide: "Please get me something to drink", she would know that I was referring to a weak decaf iced tea which I drink often, which looks more like colored water and has zero alcoholic content.
However, in the home of someone who drinks alcohol, a husband may come home after work and ask his wife to "Please get me something to drink", and she would likely understand that to mean whatever aloholic drink the man partakes of regularly.

BTW, I do not drink alcohol, I am certainly NOT saying "it's okay"  by any stretch...I have seen how it can ruin lives, etc. And there certainly ARE Bible verses which denote the evil associated with drinking/drunkeness.
But to say definitively that the word "wine" (oinos) means either one or the other in ALL cases would be incorrect.
Some cases it's clearly speaking of alcoholic wine, and other cases it denotes non-alcoholic wine.

So we are really right back where we started from... I do agree with a few people who stated you need to "take it in context".
I am not going to give my opinion on which verses denote alcohol and which verses do not. (and trust me you all know I DO have some opinions) But that would just be throwing gasoline on the fire, and we could argue 'til the cows come home and it wouldn't change one thing, nor one person's opinion.
My advice:  if a person REALLY can't tell the difference in a particular verse (in context with the subject matter) on whether or not it denotes alcohol or not, then that person needs to (individually) take it to the Lord and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. (Not to rely upon our own opinions which are tainted by fleshy-sin-nature, even when we sometimes come to the right conclusions).
Trust the Lord above all others (His "opinion" is the only one which truly "counts"), and He will lead you in the right way if you truly allow the Holy Spirit to guide.

That is assuming that the person has accepted Christ. For an unsaved person my advice would just flat out be "don't drink alcohol at all", it can (and likely will) wreck your life and wreck the lives of those around you. My advice to the unsaved person would also be... if you were considering alcohol to "escape" your problems, to fill a "void"in your heart and life...it really won't help, it will only add to your problems... my advice is to accept Jesus and He will fill that empty void, no need for alcohol at all!
 

[Invicta]

4 hours ago, LindaR said:

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Is. 65:8;      8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Does not support your argument.  In the cluster overripe grapes will begin to ferment and that contain some alcohol, week at first then gradually getting stronger.  So it would be accurate to say that wine could be in the cluster.  

This verse is not speaking of over-ripe grapes...it is speaking of NEW WINE (the fruit of the vine).  It is one of the verses which speaks of fresh, unfermented juice of the grapes found in the cluster.

And how long do you think it will be berore fresh  unfermented juice begins to ferment after it is pressed?  A few days. and if the cluster is ripe it will already have started to ferment.   

Edited January 24, 2016 by Invicta

[No Nicolaitans]

1 hour ago, wretched said:

Good verse and supports what I am saying 100%.

If you are looking to find a verse that makes wine itself a sin, good luck. However if you are looking to find verses to make abuse of wine a sin, you will find many and we are in agreement.

Selah

Wretched, can you honestly say that Proverbs 20:1 doesn't show that there's something inherently sinful with wine in and of itself? Look at the verse again...

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

What is a mocker?

Is it those who drink wine? No. Is it those who drink enough wine to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with wine? No. What is a mocker according to that verse? Wine. Wine itself is a mocker.

Is mocking sin? Seems like I recall some kids who mocked Elisha, and some two she-bears killed 42 of them because of their mocking. What does the word "mock" mean? Another word for mock is to scorn. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about scorners...

Wine IS a mocker.

______________________________________________

Strong drink is raging.

What is raging?

Is it those who drink strong drink? No. Is it those who drink enough strong drink to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with strong drink? No. What is raging according to that verse? Strong drink. Strong drink itself is raging.

Is rage a sin? Seems like I recall the Bible saying, "Why do the heathen rage?" Raging is associated with being tumultuous, fighting, commotions, moaning, being loud, and acting without a level head. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about rage.

Strong drink IS raging.

_____________________________________________

and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Deceived by what?

Wine and strong drink.

Is deception sinful?

Yes; it's lying.

Does wine and strong drink deceive? Yes.

[LindaR]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

And how long do you think it will be berore fresh  unfermented juice begins to ferment after it is pressed?  A few days. and if the cluster is ripe it will already have started to ferment.   

If you had read the article from the link I posted you would have your answer.

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent it from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Emmaus, PA). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor: Natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing.]

http://www.wayoflife.org/database/did_jesus_make_alcoholic_wine.html

Ron and I tried making our own non-alcoholic wine from fresh seedless red grapes in 2007.  We squeezed the grapes in a juicer and then boiled them.  We then filtered out the "lees" and sealed them in a couple of gallon-sized "seal a meal" bags so they were air tight.  We then froze what we made.  Since alcohol does not freeze, we left those 2 gallon-sized in the freezer for 2 years.  They froze solid which means there was NO alcohol in those freshly squeezed grapes.  When thawed after 2 years, that concentrate was extremely sweet....but there was not a trace of "ferment"/alcohol in either bag.

[wretched]

5 minutes ago, Oὐ Νικολαΐτης said:

Wretched, can you honestly say that Proverbs 20:1 doesn't show that there's something inherently sinful with wine in and of itself? Look at the verse again...

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

What is a mocker?

Is it those who drink wine? No. Is it those who drink enough wine to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with wine? No. What is a mocker according to that verse? Wine. Wine itself is a mocker.

Is mocking sin? Seems like I recall some kids who mocked Elisha, and some two she-bears killed 42 of them because of their mocking. What does the word "mock" mean? Another word for mock is to scorn. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about scorners...

Wine IS a mocker.

______________________________________________

Strong drink is raging.

What is raging?

Is it those who drink strong drink? No. Is it those who drink enough strong drink to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with strong drink? No. What is raging according to that verse? Strong drink. Strong drink itself is raging.

Is rage a sin? Seems like I recall the Bible saying, "Why do the heathen rage?" Raging is associated with being tumultuous, fighting, commotions, moaning, being loud, and acting without a level head. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about rage.

Strong drink IS raging.

_____________________________________________

and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Deceived by what?

Wine and strong drink.

Is deception sinful?

Yes; it's lying.

Does wine and strong drink deceive? Yes.

Look NN, I can tell you are a strong servant and have allot of patience with folks but I must disagree and do so in an agreeable way I pray.

I appreciate what you are saying here and understand your motivation to say it but your post here is assumptive and contains allot of commentary to explain your point and still does not say that wine in itself is sinful, the verse indicates the abuse of it. As does every single other passage of Scripture against wine.

There is one thing I learned way back in 1990 and I will not turn from it because it has always proved true to me. When any "doctrine" requires exhaustive explaining of Scripture with commentary or reverting to the useless "greek" that doctrine is ALWAYS man-made and not of God. This wine issue is a perfect example. Seems lately on this forum there have been others also but I will stick to the wine thing for now.

I will never support the drinking of wine or any alcohol because I know God's warns so strongly against the weakness of man to abuse it.

I know your stand against it is correct. What I have issue with is how you and others take your stands against it. That and that only is what I will not agree with because the Bible overwhelmingly does not support this way of standing against it.

I could give literally 100 passages that support this but will leave it with just this.

I Timothy 3: 1, This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2, A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;1
    3, Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (so pastors are not to partake)

     8, Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; (but deacons can have a little)

Now is anyone here so brainwashed in the fables of men that you would think the Lord means grapejuice here?

Once again, I do not support drinking but I will never agree that wine in itself is sinful. It is most definitely not or you make our Lord a sinner so please stop doing that.