Conditional election

[Donald]

I have always made it a point in my Christian life, to derive my Doctrinal views, from God’s Word, rather than what any human being had to say.  Although being a non-college educated pastor, has helped in this regard, I still make it a matter of serious daily prayer, asking the Lord to help me know the truth about His Word and to not be influenced by the “winds of doctrine”, that are blowing in the world.  With all that said, years ago I realized that I had to reject Calvinism, as error while also rejecting Arminianim as error, in the other direction.

Let me get to the point; One of the areas of Calvinism that I reject, is “Conditional election”, because I see the Bible as clearly teaching that Election is conditional upon “God’s foreknowledge”!   Which brings me, to my point.

Most(if not all), of the IFB pastors that I know, seem to “go far beyond Arminianim”, in this area and regularly make it clear, that they believe, “that if they had not witnessed to particular people that trusted Christ, than those people would not have gotten saved!”

Years ago, an elder pastor friend of mine shared a quote with me, that some famous evangelist had once said... “Of course I believe in Election; But it seems like the more people that I witness to, the more get elected!”

Now that sounds cute, but “how does he know, that these people are truly getting saved”, or just making a profession of faith, because of his skills of persuasion!

I am reminded of a Scripture....
“I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.” (1 Corinthians 3:6)

Paul, didn’t seem all that concerned about “soul winning”: But simply getting the Gospel out!  

 

[John81]

Excellent point that in some churches would cause a serious backlash! Among some Baptists soul winning his highly elevated, even to the point of "spiritual competition" and of prideful boasting. Unfortunately it can be common to hear it said, "I have won ___ number of folks to Christ" or even, "I have saved many".

We all probably know of those who soul winning is a big numbers game. The "super spiritual" are those who compete against one another for the highest count. This leads, rather naturally, to watery and/or pushy soul winning techniques and tricks. Thus we may have a half dozen soul winning giants in a church, each claiming to have saved hundreds, yet none of those they saved enter the church for a visit much less to become members.

Lost in all this "soul winning" is the call to disciple. All of the supposed newly saved are often simply told they are now assured of heaven and then abandoned so the soul winners can continue their hunt. Those still lost are the worse off for now having a false sense of security in heaven one day while those the Lord has brought to salvation are left alone in the midst of the world with no direction.

As we read of Paul he was even happy to hear of those proclaiming the Gospel out of wrong motives for at least the Gospel was being proclaimed and Paul knew the Holy Ghost would use that. This is why men such as Spurgeon, though a Calvinist, preaching the Gospel were able to be used of the Lord to bring many lost to salvation. This is why a babe in Christ who may know nothing much beyond the Gospel message is yet able to be used of the Lord to the saving of many as they share the Gospel.

Rather than soul winning competitions and self-effort to force proclamations of salvation we are always best to follow the model presented in Scripture. Share the Gospel and let the Holy Ghost do His work. Teach the mature men and women in Christ to disciple the newly saved, the babes, the less mature.

In our church board meeting last night we discussed the importance of follow up and follow through. Don't abandon the newly saved. Befriend them, help them to get to church, introduce them, help them become an active part of the church, invite them to sit with you in services, Sunday school, Bible study. We should be a close knit family in Christ.

[Ukulelemike]

This story does apply to the OP:

Since I came out to be a pastor in this area, there have been a few people that have been, as it were, a thorn in my side-people that you witness to and witness to, but their stubbornness is SO great, you reach that point where you must obey the Bible, and after the second and third admonition, reject them. One of these is a local JW man who has property fairly near to my wife and I. He and my wife used to talk doctrine quite a bit, but he would never hear a word of biblical truth. My own experience with him was that he was even willing to outright lie about his OWN church's doctrines, just to "win" the argument. So clearly, he just reeeeally didn't want to hear.  My last dealing with him was when I went to a place he owned, where a couple young members of my church were helping the guy who lived there with some work, I went to pick them up and he was there. He had been drinking, and was in fact about half-lit. When I got them, the wife of one of them was in the car with me, and he stuck his face in the car and began to rebuke her because she had used a bad word in front of him a few days before, (never mind he regularly used profanity). It was clear he was trying to be Mr. morals in front of me, her pastor, so I called him on his hypocrisy on the drinking, and he got all upset with me, even invited me to "get out of the car and say it" (Which I admit to being tempted to, but abstained.)

So, needless to say, I have pretty much given up on this guy. However, a young man in our church has remained kind of obsessed with him. He's a new Christian, but learning a lot. I have tried to steer him away from the JW, because I know how hard he has tried to manipulate and convert my guy, but he really has a heart for him. But I have also had little hope he could do anything for him. 

Well, recently he (The fellow from my church, Anthony from this point) downloaded some questions designed by a former JW to ask a JW to get them to begin to doubt their church, and he gave it to him, and I guess it has begun to have some effect. First he demanded to have all the questions on paper for himself to study over. Then he got mad later and kicked Anthony off his property, and gave the questions to his elders, (who I am sure were not happy since they forbid any JW from reading any other churches works upon pain of excommunication). Then he called Anthony and asked him question, and has apparently begun to believe in the possibility of their being a hell, and he is really now seeming to have a crisis of faith. So we are continuing to pray for him and for Anthony as he carefully deals with this guy.

My point in it all being, it is the Lord who will bring any increase if there is to be any. It isn't through the craftiness of man, or what great 'soulwinners' we are-it is the Lord who will use who He chooses to make a difference. I still don't know what the eventual outcome will be, but I pray that he will be saved, and his family, and also know it will be not just for their benefit, but for Anthony, who will be greatly encouraged in such a thing.

[Heir of Salvation]

Excellent post Don:

Especially this

Most(if not all), of the IFB pastors that I know, seem to “go far beyond Arminianim”, in this area and regularly make it clear, that they believe, “that if they had not witnessed to particular people that trusted Christ, than those people would not have gotten saved!”

This flies in the face of Scripture, mind you this is an error committed by some VERY well meaning people with  a heart for the Lord, but it is not correct to say that people are going to hell "BECAUSE" they are not being witnessed to. 

I recall a missionary to Thailand at our church on deputation who (and he was genuinely heart-broken for the people there) who, in tears, explained that people were by the millions going to hell "because" we have not brought them the gospel as of yet.  While I appreciate his heart for the Lord, and we still supported him, this was not Biblically accurate.God has not given us control, either through our diligence or negligence to either condemn others to hell or to prevent it.  If we fail to Evangelize, than someone else will always take our place.  No one is irreplaceable, and that is a fearful thing.

 

I Sam 15:28  And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.    I note an interesting thing in this passage: God had chosen and prepared David to be the future king of Israel long before this happened.  This neighbor God has in mind has already been chosen and prepared.  God already knew of whom he was speaking.  The next chapter begins with this: I Sam 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.   God, in his providence and foreknowledge had provided for Saul's replacement long before Saul erred in time.  God explains just this same mystery to Elijah as he caterwauls about being the only person who stands up for YHWH   Rom. 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.   Rom. 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. You also make a great point Don with this phrase: Paul, didn’t seem all that concerned about “soul winning”: But simply getting the Gospel out!     I couldn't agree more.  This may sound like splitting hairs, but it isn't.  Paul's job was to preach the gospel and let the Holy Spirit go to work.  The "elect" are so, from the beginning of creation and their election is "In Christ" who IS God's "elect".  Isa. 41:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.   Any individual person's status as being "elect" is contingent upon their being in Christ......and God will find a way to reach those who will respond to his gospel with that gospel and if WE don't do it...............someone else will.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Heir of Salvation