What makes a Church IFB?

[John81]

1 hour ago, wretched said:

I understand what you are saying John. I agree and have little doubt there are saved folks spread across many protestant groups. My real doubt is the root (leadership) of these protestant groups. IMO, the vast majority of those simply could not have the Spirit indwelling to ignore Scripture like they do. The emerging rock n rollers are worse IMO. 

I agree, many in leadership in these churches are themselves lost. Of those which are saved it seems only a few truly pursue a growing relationship with Christ. Their churches tend to stand out from the rest.

We are seeing things trending in this direction among IFB churches now with many being little more than IFB in name only.

[Alan]

On ‎2016‎年‎1‎月‎12‎日 at 11:07 AM, Ronda said:

ESCHATOLOGY:
 the pre-trib rapture
 a 7 year tribulation 
 the second coming of Christ
 the millennial kingdom is a real, physical kingdom which will be on earth, and will last a thousand years
 after the millennial reign, God will create a new heaven and a new earth

Ronda is correct in the entirety of this above quote concerning the IFB Movement. Almost all of the early IFB pastors, evengelists, were correct in their Eschaology and rejected the liberal (Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Presbryterian, and other erroneous Eschatological denominations), of their day and age. 

Oliver B. Greene, a leading evangelist of the IFB Movement wrote the following in his study on Revelation. Oliver B. Greene was well respected for his IFB beliefs and practices. He was a sincere man, an evengelist greatly used by God both in meetings and in the writing of IFB books, tracts and phamplets. Bro. Greene was holy in life and standing for the, 'truth that was once delivered to the saints.'

In Greene's study (he does not call it a commentary; he calls it a study), Greene very clearly brings out the biblical basis for the literal events that take place in the book of Revelation through a throurough study of the scriptures; especially the book of Daniel, Isaiah, Matthew 24, and the prophets.

Concerning the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Greene wrote:

     "The principle upon which this verse-by-verse study of Revelation proceeds, is that the contents of the book are, in the main, yet future and that the fulfilllment of the greater part of Revelation cannot take place as long as the church remains here on earth. When the Lord Jesus comes in the Rapture, and the Church is caught up to meet Him in the air, then the events in Revelation from chapter four through chapter twenty-two will occur. The New Testament Church - Christ's body and His bride - is now in the process of being called out and will be completed when the Rapture occurs." Revelation, FOREWARD,  page v 

Concerning the Millennial Kingdom Greene wrote:

   "The sovereignity of Christ as a MAN (Psalm 8) and as KING (Psalm 2) is Bible truth. A royal ensign to be displayed for one thousand years on this earth is unquestionable according to scripture. The prophets of old saw it in a vision. Judah sang about it. The prophets from Isaiah to Malachi speaks of its glory, blessing and splendor." Revelation, page 484  

"This kingdom is certainly earthly, a visible kingdom on earth ... the Millennial kingdom of our Lord jesus Christ. He will sit on the throne of His glory. There will be a government. God will rule in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ." Revelation, page 492

Brethren,

If you would like to read the rest of the study on Revelation, and other books on prophecy by Oliver B. Greens, almost every used bookstore has a good supply of them or you can order his books on this website:  http://www.thegospelhour.org/

Matt,

In order to answer your question, "What really make a church IFB?"

A belief in biblcal Eschatology; the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, a literal time of 7-Years of Tribulation on this earth, and the literal belief in the one thousand year of Christ on the earth as KING OF KNIGS AND LORD OF LORDS,  makes a church a IFB.  

Kindest Regards,

Alan

[John81]

Some of the first material I read regarding end times was by Oliver B. Greene. I picked up a bunch of Christian booklets at a yard sale and it turned out most were by Greene, a couple by Rice, and I don't recall the few others.

Are there writings from the original, early IFBs on this subject? Thus far, I've come across very little in this area from that era. So far, in listings of early IFBs of The Fundamentals, I've yet to see eschatology listed. It seems early IFBs went by the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. It wasn't until years latter when some IFBs began adding to this; some just another point or two, others to great extremes.

[Alan]

4 hours ago, John81 said:

Some of the first material I read regarding end times was by Oliver B. Greene. I picked up a bunch of Christian booklets at a yard sale and it turned out most were by Greene, a couple by Rice, and I don't recall the few others.

Are there writings from the original, early IFBs on this subject? Thus far, I've come across very little in this area from that era. So far, in listings of early IFBs of The Fundamentals, I've yet to see eschatology listed. It seems early IFBs went by the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. It wasn't until years latter when some IFBs began adding to this; some just another point or two, others to great extremes.

I am very happy that you are familiar with Greene and Rice. Both men were fine men, strong in the faith, were mightlly used by God is every aspect of the word.

Most of the writings of the most of the early IFB brethren are limited to sermons, (both printed and electronic), phamplets, and to some books. As most of the Christian bookstores will not handle good IFB material you will not find a lot of material in Christian bookstores.

A lot of the early men of the IFB Movement really never settled down in just the "Five Fundamentals." Quite frankly, the "Five Fundamentals" are believed by some denominational churches that are definatley not IFB. To limit an IFB to just the 'Five Fundamentals' is doing an injustice to the IFB Movement and churches.

Men like J.F. Norris, Greene, Rice and most of the early IFB men, were all firm in their belief of the KJV, to some degree, was the preserved word of God, a Pre-Tribulationist Rapture, a literal 1000 year reign of Christ, non-ecumenical,  in their  pastoral teaching. The reason why it is such an issue today is the vast amount of false teachers, new versions of the bible, ecumenicalism, CCM, Non-KJV bibles, a-millennialism, hyper-dispensationalism, 'internet theologians' entering into the IFB churches and corrupting these churches with their private interpretations of the scriptures.

In our day and age any saint with a disgruntled attitude (I should say a disgruntled heart), can start his, or her, own, teachings on the internet. The internet is filled with the brim with these disgruntled and backslidden 'internet theologian' saints. Every doctrine in the Bible, incuding soul-winning, giving, morality, and seperation, is now questioned and scorned by disgruntled saints pouring their venom on the internet. Some of these men are on every Christian forum; including OnLIne Baptist.

That is the reason why you see many good, IFB churches adding to the fundamantals of the faith as in our day and age with the advent of a tremendous amount of false teachers the pastors are trying to teach the truth of all the doctrines of the bible: not just "Five Fundamentals." 

Regards,

Alan

Edited February 16, 2016 by Alan
grammer

[John81]

Thank you Alan. That's been my observation thus far. Those who founded and were the earliest of the IFBs didn't put a lot in print. It wasn't until some decades later when men such as Greene and Rice had their sermons and writings put forth in abundance.

The Five Fundamentals were never meant to be all-encompassing. They were only meant to serve as the minimum foundation necessary. Certainly IFBs held firm positions in many other areas, some of which would have made it upon a Statement of Faith if they had such.

While Rice thought the RSV was a good Bible and easier to read for some, his overall ministry was solid and it's a shame what his successors have allowed. Rice's' book on prayer, the unabridged version, is excellent and really helped my understanding and application of prayer. His booklets and sermons on families are powerful stuff many today wouldn't even think of putting forth.

It's sad that today IFB churches can come in such a variety a person must investigate each one carefully to determine if they are a church worthy of attendance. Their proclamation of what they consider Fundamentals, their Statements of Faith, often say the right things but too often the pastor doesn't preach in accord with these and the practices of the church are out of line.

The old adage of "buyer beware" now applies to our IFB churches. As you point out, today anyone can form a "church" and name it almost as they wish. It used to be that if an IFB church took a Left turn they would change their name but unfortunately that's no longer true.

Thanks be to God we still have access to some of the good "old" preachers works and there are still some sound IFB churches around.

[trapperhoney]

I don't know how it is in other areas, but churches around here seem to become desperate when looking for a pastor and often end up settling on the first man who will come to them whether he is the right man or not.  I saw a church so desperate that when a man applied he refused to give a statement of faith but they interviewed and hired him anyway.  He then proceeded to put his father on the deacon board and change all the bylaws so that he is now "supreme ruler."   There should be no reason for a church to become desperate when they are without a pastor.  The men should be trained in the leadership of the church and take turns preaching, etc. while waiting for God's man to come to them.  Unfortunately it seems most pastors are  concerned about "job security" and do not train the men.  The flip side is that there are few men who are interested or would be willing to step up for this role.  A floundering church is the devil's delight.

[Invicta]

A few years ago we were looking for a pastor.  Some deacons wanted a certain man who others thought would be a disaster.  It went to the members and he was rejected.Those who pushed for the an and their offspring walked out on the spot. We are only a small  church and I think they expected that our church would fold.  In fact we have had new members, some were with us when they were at university and have now moved back to the area.  Another man is a retired pastor and his wife are both keen on outreach. Unfortunately he had a stroke at the end of last year, but he is recovering well.  Last Sunday he was at our service using just one stick as  about 4 weeks ago he was in a wheelchair all the time.  Next month he is provisionally down to preach for us.  

[John81]

8 hours ago, trapperhoney said:

I don't know how it is in other areas, but churches around here seem to become desperate when looking for a pastor and often end up settling on the first man who will come to them whether he is the right man or not.  I saw a church so desperate that when a man applied he refused to give a statement of faith but they interviewed and hired him anyway.  He then proceeded to put his father on the deacon board and change all the bylaws so that he is now "supreme ruler."   There should be no reason for a church to become desperate when they are without a pastor.  The men should be trained in the leadership of the church and take turns preaching, etc. while waiting for God's man to come to them.  Unfortunately it seems most pastors are  concerned about "job security" and do not train the men.  The flip side is that there are few men who are interested or would be willing to step up for this role.  A floundering church is the devil's delight.

A church in a small city about 30 miles away went through several pastors because none of them were what the church wanted. Someone from their church called our pastor and asked if he could give them some ideas about how to hire a good pastor. Our pastor went right to the point and told them they should start by making sure any prospective pastor is actually a born again Christian.

Sad to say, many get into the ministry who are not even saved.

Our own church, over 30 years ago, took nearly two years to hire a new pastor because they refused to settle or rush things just to have one. Thanks be to God they took their time!

[Alan]

On ‎2016‎年‎1‎月‎9‎日 at 3:51 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

I would define "Independent Baptist" as simply Independent from any control outside of the local church, to include any conventions, associations, fellowships, or control by any other church.

If I had to define IFB at this late hour of my Christian life I would have to define it this way:

1. The Independent part would be; Independent of any control outside of the local church an individual belongs to.

 

I agree with Jim Alaska and I would like to elaborate on his thoughts on what he said concerning, 'Independent.'

“A New Testament Church is an Independent Church”

 

All of the churches listed in the New Testament were independent churches with no governing religious, or ruling, organizational body of men over them. The only authority outside of the pastor, or otherwise called bishop or elder, of the churches listed in the New Testament was one of the 12 Apostles.

 

The New Testament meaning of the word ‘bishop,’ is the overseer, or pastor, of a flock of Christians at a local church. The meaning of the biblical word ‘bishop,’ has been changed to mean the overseer of a group of churches.

 

As Paul was audibly called an Apostle by the Lord Jesus Himself, and he had the physical signs of an apostle, Paul is the 12^th Apostle that replaced the position of Judas Iscariot. Therefore, the Apostle Paul had authority over the churches. “Besides those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.” 2 Corinthians 11:28

 

The Apostle Paul said, “I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:11 and 12

 

When the 12 apostles died the office of the apostle ceased to exist. All, one hundred percent, of the so-called apostles from that time are false apostles. “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:13

 

In his classic pamphlet, “The Trail of Blood,” J. M. Carroll, rightly stated, “Baptists do not believe in Apostolic Succession. The Apostolic office ceased with the death of the Apostles. It is to His churches that He promised a continual existence from the time He organized the first one during His earthly ministry until he comes again. He promised – “I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18)” Emphasis is by Carroll.

 

The organization of the churches with a ruling body of men, or a religious hierarchy outside the local New Testament Church, was the concept of the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. The Reformation is simply men who came out of the Roman Catholic Church and created their own religious organization of a body of men. Two examples will suffice. Martin Luther was the moving force to start the Lutheran Church and John Calvin was the moving force to start the Presbyterian Church.

 

A man-made religious organization designed to control the local church is hereafter called a, ‘denomination.’ All of the man-made denominations are in error by either practice or doctrine; usually both.

 

Like the Pharisees of the scriptures, the denominational leaders are after the tithes and offerings of the churches.

 

Like the Pharisees of the scriptures, the denominational leaders, and the ministers of the churches, are after the praise of men.

 

Like the Pharisees of the scriptures, if you resist them, teach against their practices, then they will first verbally persecute you, denounce you, mock you, and use any method to get rid of you.

 

All of them, in order to perpetuate their movement, have their own colleges, news organizations, retirement plans for the minister, and Professors who sole duty is to write books and articles to disseminate, and perpetuate, the doctrines and beliefs of their denomination and belittle (in any shape or fashion), those who do not follow the denominational stance of their beliefs.

 

The retirement plan for the ministers is a crucial part of the denomination. The retirement plan is to assure that the minister does not leave the denomination.

 

In order to justify the false doctrinal beliefs of their particular denomination, new bible translations must be made by these professors disseminating the denominational beliefs. Therefore, the profusion of corrupt bibles will continue and run un-abated until the end of the Tribulation Period. Please take careful note, I did not say, “...until Jesus comes.” The religious whore of Revelation, and the members of her religious organization, will continue the translation of corrupt bibles, and the professors will continue their writing of corrupt doctrines, even after the Rapture.

 

Denominations, and religious cults (cults are highly rigid denominations), are rife with false teachers spreading their false doctrines.

 

The concept of the organizing of the churches into one religious body, a denomination, is of the world and is deceiving saints. The denominations are the leading cause of false doctrines, false beliefs, corrupt bibles, and are a leading cause of dissension among true believers in true New Testament churches. Please note. I said, ‘leading cause,’ and not the entire cause of false doctrines.

 

Alan

 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Alan
abated to un-abated a paragraph improperly formatted

[heartstrings]

6 hours ago, Alan said:

The only authority outside of the pastor, or otherwise called bishop or elder, of the churches listed in the New Testament was one of the 12 Apostles.

 

 

 Elders are exactly what the name means: older men. Most churches have several of these. The problem with that is; the Bible entrusts the "elders" with something called "rule" and if that doesn't fit the church's desired governing structure, they say that "elder" means the same as "pastor". This effectively renders the church with only one "elder" having absolute rule whereby some will take full advantage and control. This is false teaching and has the capacity to turn dangerous. Pastor and elder are not synonymous. I doubt "bishop" means the same either. Do we believe the KJB is a perfectly accurate translation of the Inspired word of God? Then why would it have three words to mean the same thing? It doesn't because they don't.

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, heartstrings said:

 Elders are exactly what the name means: older men. Most churches have several of these. The problem with that is; the Bible entrusts the "elders" with something called "rule" and if that doesn't fit the church's desired governing structure, they say that "elder" means the same as "pastor". This effectively renders the church with only one "elder" having absolute rule whereby some will take full advantage and control. This is false teaching and has the capacity to turn dangerous. Pastor and elder are not synonymous. I doubt "bishop" means the same either. Do we believe the KJB is a perfectly accurate translation of the Inspired word of God? Then why would it have three words to mean the same thing? It doesn't because they don't.

There are only two offices I can find in the scripture, Bishops and deacons.  Bishop means overseer.  Deacon means servant.  

Bishops in the church are plural Philipians  1:1  Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Phiilppi, with the bishops and deacons:  There were Bishops and deacons and saints in the church So I judge that as elders were to appointed in all the churches and the apostles were also elders, that elders and bishops were the same office.  4

Pastors is a different matter. There is no office of pastor mentioned, only Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.  Those he gave as pastors and teachers, those that feed the flock. 

Jer 3:15  And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jer 23:2  Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
 

[Alan]

Brethren,

An elder can be either an elder person in the church or the office of the bishop / pastor. In Titus 2:3 Paul separates the elder as the bishop of the church and the aged men (who were elder in age), in a separate category. Titus 2:1 and 2, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: [in Titus 1: 9 Paul had previously commanded the elder / bishop  of the church to teach sound doctrine] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience." The term elder cannot only mean the office of the pastor in the church but it can mean an older person with wisdom, insight, and other commendable characteristics. For an example, see 1 Timothy 5:1

Ephesians 4:11, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers." The 'pastors,' are the elders / bishops of the various churches.

1 Peter 5:1-4, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

The Lord Jesus is the chief Shepherd of the church. The apostle Peter was an elder, "taking the oversight thereof," of the church. As an Apostle, he was the elder, or bishop, of any church that he started until an man could take his place. As the elder, or bishop, or pastor, of the church, his duties included 'shepherding or pastoring,' the flock as an under-shepherd of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I fully understand that in or age, and in the denominational churches, the office of the elder, bishop, or pastor, is miss-used. I also an cognizant that in some fundamental churches the pastor is a 'dictator,' or 'lords over God's heritage.' These men, and women, who miss-use the office of the bishop, elder, pastor, will be severely punished, or will suffer a lack of rewards.

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre." Titus 4-7

The elder mentioned in verse 4 is the same office, and person, listed in verse 7 as the bishop.  

Just because, in our age, their are churches that have numerous elders that have rule over the people does not take away the truth of the scriptures. And just because some men abuse the position of the pastor / elder / bishop does not change the scriptures. The men, and women, in the ministry that abuse the office of the pastor/bishop/elder will be punished, or rewards taken away.

The miss-deeds of the world, false prophets, false ministers, dictators in the ministry, and the spiritual filth of this Laodician Age, does not give us a right to change the scriptures in order to try and iron out our problems. Paul told Timothy, "Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partakers of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." 1 Timothy 5:23 If our churches would obey Paul's teachings than most of the men in the office of the pastor / elder / bishop, would not be in the ministry. 

Kindest Rgards,

Alan

[Golgotha]

On 1/8/2016 at 2:51 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

I guess since I spent so much time in Alaska I was out of the "mainstream" all those years, with the exception of missionaries and other pastors who came to hold special services for our church.

I said that simply because I have never heard the term "IFB". In the Alaska churches it was always "Independent Baptist"
The first I ever heard of IFB was when I joined this message board. I say all of this so that folks understand where I'm coming from and why.

I would define "Independent Baptist" as simply Independent from any control outside of the local church, to include any conventions, associations, fellowships, or control by any other church.

If I had to define IFB at this late hour of my Christian life I would have to define it this way:

1. The Independent part would be; Independent of any control outside of the local church an individual belongs to.

2. The "fundamental" part would be; a local church that holds strictly to the teaching and doctrines put forth by Jesus Christ, His Apostles and the first church that He instituted, as inspired by His Holy Spirit and found exclusively in His Word.

Although I agree with you, unfortunately, many fundamental churches have included the teaching of this practice of worship & honor of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son where there is no Biblical teaching nor practice at all.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:22-23 cites the standard of judgment over all believers that there is only one way to honor the Father & that is by only honoring the Son & glorifying the Son & by doing so honor & glorify God the Father.  That is His will.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:14 He shall glorify me:

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

The role of the Holy Spirit is that He has been sent to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) in glorifying Him ( John 16:14 ) and so how can the Holy Spirit do that except through us ( John 15:27 )?  

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That also & must include worship as John 14:6 testifies the only way to come to God the Father in worship is by way of the Son.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

The Holy Spirit is God but God's glory rests on the Son as God the Father can only be glorified by the glory of the Son;  John 13:31-32

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The obedience that Paul was talking about in verse 12 of Philippians 2:5-13 is to have that mind of Christ to glorify the Son in worship and by doing so glorify God the Father.

The moment any one seek to honor or glorify the Holy Spirit or the "Trinity" when God the Father told us by His Son how He wants us to honor Him & glorify Him by, is stepping outside of His will & His words in doing so, and thus they are no longer honoring the Father.  It has been an errant & unBiblical assumption by the believers & churches that just because there is a Triune God that the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped with the Father & the Son when the Holy Spirit & His words are not leading believers to do that.

The Holy Spirit will not lead a believer to speak of Himself to honor Himself nor glorify Himself, but the Son.  So by what spirit are believers honoring & glorifying the Holy Spirit by?  Not by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus warned about false prophets coming into the churches by "broadening the way".  Matthew 7:13-17

The solution to avoid the iniquity is to narrow the way back to the straight gate if one wants to attend the Marriage Supper;  Luke 13:24-30

Holy Spirit is God & part of the Triune God, but seeking the face of the Bridegroom is what the indwelling Holy Spirit is leading us to do as it is the Father's will.

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face,Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.

I suspect many believers will be forsaken by christian family members for leaning on Jesus for help in keeping their eyes only on the Bridegroom in worship since He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ & that may mean withdrawing from the assembly when they refuse to only honor the Son in worship in honoring the Father..

Edited June 24, 2016 by Golgotha

[wretched]

4 hours ago, Golgotha said:

Although I agree with you, unfortunately, many fundamental churches have included the teaching of this practice of worship & honor of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son where there is no Biblical teaching nor practice at all.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:22-23 cites the standard of judgment over all believers that there is only one way to honor the Father & that is by only honoring the Son & glorifying the Son & by doing so honor & glorify God the Father.  That is His will.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:14 He shall glorify me:

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

The role of the Holy Spirit is that He has been sent to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) in glorifying Him ( John 16:14 ) and so how can the Holy Spirit do that except through us ( John 15:27 )?  

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That also & must include worship as John 14:6 testifies the only way to come to God the Father in worship is by way of the Son.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

The Holy Spirit is God but God's glory rests on the Son as God the Father can only be glorified by the glory of the Son;  John 13:31-32

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The obedience that Paul was talking about in verse 12 of Philippians 2:5-13 is to have that mind of Christ to glorify the Son in worship and by doing so glorify God the Father.

The moment any one seek to honor or glorify the Holy Spirit or the "Trinity" when God the Father told us by His Son how He wants us to honor Him & glorify Him by, is stepping outside of His will & His words in doing so, and thus they are no longer honoring the Father.  It has been an errant & unBiblical assumption by the believers & churches that just because there is a Triune God that the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped with the Father & the Son when the Holy Spirit & His words are not leading believers to do that.

The Holy Spirit will not lead a believer to speak of Himself to honor Himself nor glorify Himself, but the Son.  So by what spirit are believers honoring & glorifying the Holy Spirit by?  Not by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus warned about false prophets coming into the churches by "broadening the way".  Matthew 7:13-17

The solution to avoid the iniquity is to narrow the way back to the straight gate if one wants to attend the Marriage Supper;  Luke 13:24-30

Holy Spirit is God & part of the Triune God, but seeking the face of the Bridegroom is what the indwelling Holy Spirit is leading us to do as it is the Father's will.

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face,Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.

I suspect many believers will be forsaken by christian family members for leaning on Jesus for help in keeping their eyes only on the Bridegroom in worship since He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ & that may mean withdrawing from the assembly when they refuse to only honor the Son in worship in honoring the Father..

Who does this? I have never heard of an IFB charismatic church. Where is this group you keep referencing?

[OLD fashioned preacher]

3 hours ago, wretched said:

Who does this? I have never heard of an IFB charismatic church. Where is this group you keep referencing?

IFB charismatic church? I don't know about now but in the mid to late 80s there was an Independent Baptist church in the Gainer's Mill area of Chickamauga, GA that at the end of Sun pm service had a healing line. The pastor even went as far (on that particular night anyway) to say, "Now if you know someone who needs healing, come on down to the front and let us anoint you and pray over you for them." I told my wife, "Check it out, healing by proxy!"