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The Great Commission, Pentecost, and Paul's Meeting with the Apostles


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11 hours ago, Ronda said:

"Messing with" the doctrine of the gospel?" I noted the obvious (to me) differences, and I am accused of "messing with the doctrine of the gospel?"

 

I quote the actual Bible verses and am then told I am "messing with the gospel"??? 

Sister Ronda,

My comments above were not intended so much as an accusation, but were an attempt at a gracious explanation (at which I apparently failed, simply by using the word "messing").  I was attempting to explain, and thereby to help you to understand, why your article very likely could not avoid stirring up controversy.  When you come among a group who hold as a foundational truth of doctrine that there is ONLY ONE gospel for all people for all time, and that the doctrine of this gospel teaches salvation by God's grace through faith alone, not of any works, and then you present a belief that there are actually TWO different gospels for two different peoples respectively, and that while the doctrine for one of those two gospels teaches salvation by God's grace through faith alone, the doctrine for the other of those two gospels teaches salvation by God's grace and human merit through both faith and works, it is almost inevitable that you will stir up controversy.  As such, you will be perceived by that group as "messing" with the doctrine of the gospel.  Now, since the doctrine of the gospel is so very, very serious, it is not at all likely that members of that group will simply allow this perceived "messing" to abide among them or that they will have a casual "agree-to-disagree" attitude about the matter.  I am just trying gracious to explain so that you may understand the controversy (maybe even, intense controversy) that you HAVE stirred up with your article.

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A thing I want to say first is that I think Ronda, Pastor Markle, NN and others are giving wonderful examples of the principle of earnest Bible study--something I do far too little of.

13 hours ago, Ronda said:

Brother "NN" I would agree that there are no mistakes in the Bible... mistakes come when WE (humans) do not properly understand the wording.

I wish that were the only way I got scripture wrong, but I find I make mistakes in many ways. I will miss the obvious truth of a sentence or argument by not reading carefully, or miss something more subtle by not being dilligent. And this happens--I will find out later--even when I think I am being open to the Holy Spirit's leading and I think I am studying prayerfully, carefully and dilligently. I wonder how many truths I now thank the Holy Spirit for leading me to He will show me one day are not truths and not of His leading.

13 hours ago, Ronda said:

But when the Holy Spirit guides us as believers, and we (or at least in my case) read something and a tugging on our heart starts that tells me "I need to dig deeper into this", I go to the Lord in prayer, seeking His guidance...

Is this direct, personal interaction the only way that the Holy Spirit causes us to rightly divide, I wonder? Does the Holy Spirit also put people in our path--a pastor's sermon, a discussion on an internet forum, a church Bible study etc? If He doesn't, are those things therefore redundant and worse a distraction? Is it only ever the Holy Spirit and I? That's an open question, since I know a lot of people who would say yes.

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I think maybe a quick reminder as to the meaning of 'justified."  Justified means 'to be declared righteous.'      Clearly, it is Christ who declares us righteous, ultimately. It is HE that MAKES us righteous.

However, in the wording from James, that we are justified by works, means that, if we are in obedience to God, our works declare that we are righteous-essentially, they speak to the world what the Lord has done to the heart.  The Lord has made me righteous-HE is who justified me-however, generally-speaking, that cannot be seen by others, not unless my works, my life, follow that righteousness. Thereby, my works have declared me righteous, not MADE me righteous, but they have spoken that righteousness to all around. This is what James was talking about. No one can see my faith, unless I live my faith. So, though Abraham was justified by faith through God without works, his work of obedience showed his righteousness and hence, he was justified, declared righteous, by that obedience. How would anyone ever know Abraham was called of God, had he not acted on that call? How would anyone know Abraham's faith, except when the Lord called him to sacrifice, he followed Him in obedience, even to the raising of the knife? His works declared his righteousness.  

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On 24 December 2015 at 1:11 AM, NN said:

I've debated on whether to post this, because it's been covered...and covered...and covered...and recovered on this forum already. No one's mind has been changed either way (that I'm aware of), so I feel that I'm posting this in vain...but I'm posting it anyway.

1. The Great Commission

Do we still believe that the Great Commission applies for us today? The Great Commission is comprised of 3 things...

  1. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, (aka...preach the gospel in Mark 16)
  2. baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 
  3. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That's what the Lord Jesus Christ told them to do. Preach the gospel, baptize, and teach.

2. The Day of Pentecost/Peter's sermon

When Peter preached the sermon on the day of Pentecost, what did he do?

  1. Peter included the first part of the Great Commission. He most definitely preached the gospel; he thoroughly covered the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in the sermon...that's what the entire sermon was about! After which, the hearers were strongly convicted and asked what they should do.
  2. Peter included the second part of the Great Commission. He first told the hearers that they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (see Luke's version of the Great Commission in Luke 24:47). What were they to repent of? Well, if you read Peter's sermon, you will note how often he exclaimed that THEY were responsible for Christ's death. THEY had rejected Christ. They now needed to accept Christ. In other words...he was telling them that they needed to accept the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Next, he told them that they should be baptized. Isn't that part of the Great Commission? Don't we tell people the same today? You're saved now, so you should get baptized. The problem people seem to have is with Peter saying, "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Some claim that Peter was preaching works + faith, but I beg to differ. Don't we also tell people that if they get saved, they'll receive the Holy Ghost? The hearers asked Peter what they should do. Peter told them what they should do...repent and be baptized...get saved and be baptized. That's what they needed to do. Receiving the Holy Ghost is what happens when one is saved. Was Peter preaching work + faith, or was he just giving the natural result of being saved much the same way that we do today? What should the hearers do? They should repent and be baptized...after all...that's what the Lord Jesus Christ told his followers to do in the Great Commission. Peter told them what they needed to do, because the Lord Jesus Christ said that was what they were to do. We later read that those that gladly received his word (believed) were baptized...yet, we read nothing of them receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hmmm...
  3. Peter included the third part of the Great Commission. We also later read that those who were saved "continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrine". So Peter was also involved in teaching the new believers. Peter preached the gospel, baptized, and taught them. He was doing what the Lord Jesus Christ told them to do in the Great Commission...

Now, those who say that Peter taught works + faith seem to have no trouble explaining away the "baptismal requirement" of the Great Commission in Mark 16...

(Mark 16:15-16) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So, is baptism necessary or not? We can explain away Mark 16's baptismal requirement (and rightly so), but Peter...oh no...Peter taught baptismal regeneration! Strange, because he got the Great Commission from the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter gets lambasted for saying they should be baptized, but the Lord Jesus Christ's own words can be explained away? Hmmm...

***Now, for those new here, and before anyone gets any crazy ideas about me...no, I DO NOT believe in baptismal regeneration. No,,,NO...NO!!!

3. Paul's Meeting with the Apostles

Just to keep it short...what happened at that meeting? The apostles agreed that Paul was teaching the same thing they were teaching. Hmmm...

 

Finally, let's not forget that in the giving of the Great Commission, the Lord Jesus Christ said that they were to go unto ALL THE WORLD...ALL NATIONS...preaching the gospel, baptizing, and teaching. ALL OF THE WORLD...ALL NATIONS. The Lord told them to take THE gospel to ALL nations. He didn't tell them to take the works + faith gospel to the Jews...then take the gospel of grace to the Gentiles. No, he said to take THE gospel to ALL nations beginning at Jerusalem. The gospel that Jerusalem received was the gospel that all of the nations of the world were to receive. Preach THE gospel to EVERY creature. One gospel. The one and only gospel. The gospel of grace...and what is THE gospel? How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. That's the gospel that Peter preached on Pentecost...

Hello NN Is this a question? what aren't we to change our mind about?

Not sure what your point is, but i think That Jesus at times was expounding the Law, and at times he was preaching Grace, I think John the Baptist when he hunted some Jews and told them to bring forth fruit worthy of repentence he was kind of telling them, 'if you don't eat you dinner you cannot have any desert', or in that the Law was our school master to lead us to  Christ' John was saying, 'go back to School', that par adventure God might grant you sight to see. And I think that Peter and James in that they were apostles to the Jews sort of draw Israel through the teachings of the Law, Gentiles didn't have the Law, so might not be aware of their guilt, so they might be quicker to believe that God can give them a free gift of life. Jews might think they deserve eternal life, Often those with no law know they are lost in the courtroom of a Holy God. I Don't think that The Apostles  agreed that they were teaching the same thing as Paul, but that they had both been given the same holy Spirit, and that there was one Gospel to the Jews and also to the Gentiles.

On the Mark 16 verse on Baptism, when we believe we are baptised into the Spirit of Christ, this verse is probably not talking about the shadow of water baptism, but rather of the reality of being buried into Christ in the Spirit.

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39 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hello NN Is this a question? what aren't we to change our mind about?

It's not that one can't change their mind about a certain thing, but I was referring to whether water baptism was necessary for salvation for the Jews/early church. It has been discussed here before, and as far as I'm aware...no one has changed their mind as to what they believe about that.

42 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

On the Mark 16 verse on Baptism, when we believe we are baptised into the Spirit of Christ, this verse is probably not talking about the shadow of water baptism, but rather of the reality of being buried into Christ in the Spirit.

I tend to lean that way myself, but I'm not sure enough about it to make a stand on it.

26 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Acts 8:1  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

That's a good verse showing the apostles were still in Jerusalem, but it was also still early in church history. There is still no definitive biblical proof that the apostles never left Jerusalem.

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Yes, I Don't doubt for a second that they traveled far and wide. I had someone say to me once that Matthias was elected by mistake, and therefore church members were not alowed to vote on anything, the 'mistake' was evident because Matthias was never 'heard of again', but of course most of the Apostles were never heard of again, or at least they were never mentioned again.

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7 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Yes, I Don't doubt for a second that they traveled far and wide. I had someone say to me once that Matthias was elected by mistake, and therefore church members were not alowed to vote on anything, the 'mistake' was evident because Matthias was never 'heard of again', but of course most of the Apostles were never heard of again, or at least they were never mentioned again.

I don't think it was a mistake.  It is in the scriptures.  Nowhere does it say they were wrong.

 

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On 08/01/2016 at 8:44 AM, Invicta said:

I don't think it was a mistake.  It is in the scriptures.  Nowhere does it say they were wrong.

 

Yes I agree, I was just pointing out some of the crafty and flawed arguments that some use.

 

On the other hand in the book of job there were some lengthy arguments presented by Jobs friends which seemed to be somewhat rebuked, and some of Jobs were as well as far as I see, so it might be a case of scripture there in order for us to learn indirectly from, but in the case of Acts 1, like you say there was no statement nor indication that they had made a mistake.

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How can the "great commission" apply to us?

Matthew 28:19  Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirt.

Many people argue that "disciples of all nations" has to mean everyone, yet fast forward to the next time "nations" is used in Acts 2:5 and you can see that this could mean Jews only. "Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing jews from every nation under heaven"

The other thing I'm always told is that "baptizing them in  the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit" is an explanation on why we should be water baptized, but Baptist churches, I'm a Baptist, teach that our baptism is symbolic, the problem is this was no symbolic baptism, it was a required baptism.

Then you get to verse 20: "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" Well how come everyone that thinks this our "great commission: does not also teach and preach that we should follow the law in its entirety as Jesus had commanded his disciples?

 

The Mark version is even easier since it says "these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons, they will speak in new tongues, they will pick  up snakes with their hands, and when they drink deadly poison it will not harm them."

 

I really want to bring a gallon of bleach and a barrel full of deadly snakes to church this Sunday for everyone to participate in that thinks this is our commission.

2 Corinthians 5: 11-21 is our commission, but church tradition will not let go of the Matthew version for whatever reason.

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