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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Clarence Larkin - Revelation


Alan
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Review of the book, “The Book of Revelation,”

By Clarence Larkin

Review by Alan

Background of Larkin

Clarence Larkin, October 28, 1850 to January 24, 1924, was a Baptist pastor and Bible expositor. Converted at age 19, he joined the Episcopal Church. He entered college and graduated as an Mechanical Engineer. Larkin did not attend any theological seminary.

Larkin left the Episcopal Church and became a Baptist. Larkin was ordained into the ministry and was an, “American Baptist Church,” pastor. “The Book of Revelation,” a detailed Commentary with visual Charts, was originally a 4-month Sunday morning sermon series later developed into a Bible Institute course and eventually in book form.

As Pastor Larkin was an accomplished draftsman he used his abilities to produce the well known visual charts in, “The Book of Revelation,” his other monumental work, “Dispensational Truth,” and other books.

Overview

The Book of Revelation commentary was written in the futuristic interpretation. Larkin divided the book according to the ‘Three-Fold Division,” given to us in Revelation 1:19 by the Lord Jesus, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.” All though the book Larkin gives the reader the Old Testament prophecies concerning the nation of Israel, the Gentile nations of the world, the prophetic utterances of the Lord in Matthew 24, and the fulfillment of these appropriate prophetic prophecies in the order of fulfillment.

Chart of the timeline of Events

The book is well written with all of the major events of the book of Revelation charted in the proper sequence of events. The accompanied chart, “The Book of Revelation,” Chart # 4, gives the student of scripture a broad overview of the book of Revelation with appropriate scripture references.[1] Please note that the chart was obtained from the web link: http://clarencelarkincharts.com/ and the wording, “Chart # 4,” is the websites descriptive number and in not written in the chart in the book by Larkin.

9k=

Throughout the book, various charts explain one another and the corresponding scripture references. The charts used in the book of Revelation by Larkin are available free of charge in the following web link: http://clarencelarkincharts.com/

Rapture of the Church

Larkin goes in great detail in interpreting that the coming of the Lord Jesus, as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, hereafter called, ‘the rapture,’ in the clouds, and not to the earth, for the church-age saints in a clear, understandable manner. Larkin brings out interesting details concerning His coming as depicted in Matthew 17:1-9[2] and other verses. Larkin brings out conclusive scriptural proof that the coming of the Lord Jesus, the rapture, occurs before the start of the time of ‘Jacob’s Trouble, Revelation 6:1

Therefore, because the rapture occurs in type with  John being caught up in the Spirit in Revelation 4:1 and 2, the word, ‘pre,’ meaning ‘before,’ has been included in non-biblical terminology. The meaning is a ‘pre-tribulation coming (rapture) of the Lord Jesus for the church. Much ado has been made of scoffers who say, “The word pre is not in the bible.” the word ‘pre’ just simply means before. The rapture occurs symbolically in Revelation 4: 1 & 2 and occurs before Revelation 6.

The 24 Elders – Revelation 4:4

Larkin brings out conclusive scriptural proof that the 24 elders are made up of 12 Old Testament and 12 New Testament redeemed men.[3] This is further proof of the rapture of the church before (or pre) the 7-year tribulation period commences in Revelation 6:1

The Judgment Seat of Christ – Revelation 4:4

Larkin brings out conclusively that the 24 elders were given out crowns at the Judgment Seat of Christ as brought out by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:11-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10 and other pertinent scripture references[4] with an accompanying chart.

Matthew 24, ‘The Olivet discourse.’

In addition to the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets and the order of the their fulfilment, Larkin goes into detail with the prophetic prophecies of the Lord in Matthew 24, ‘The Olivet discourse.’ Larkin carefully goes through all of the three questions asked by the disciples in Matthew 24:1-3 and the answers with an accompanying chart.[5] The questions and answers asked and given are arranged in order with the appropriate scripture fulfilment in Revelation.

Daniel 9:27 and the Two witnesses

Larkin gives an overview, not a detailed explanation, of Daniel 9:27 and the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:1-14[6]

The 7 Vials and the 10 Egyptian Plagues

One of the interesting side notes of the book of Revelation is the comparison of some, not all, of the 10 Egyptian Plagues in the book of Exodus compared with the vials. No doctrines are expostulated but Larkin brings out some interesting comparisons not usually thought of by the average Revelation commentator. The accompanying chart on the plagues and the vials is helpful in the comparison.[7]

The 1000 Year Reign of Christ – Revelation 20:4-6

Larkin proves, by the prophetic utterances by the prophets and the Lord Jesus that the Millennial Reign of Christ is the literal reign of Christ, in Jerusalem, with the Jews restored in the land of Israel.[8] The various accompanying charts in this section are of great value.

The Millennial Temple – Ezekiel 40:1 to 44:31

Larkin proves that the millennial temple will be a literal temple through scripture and historical facts.[9]

Concluding Remarks

Larkin was blessed with the gracious ability to guide the reader to the truth of the book of Revelation according to the spirit found in 2 Timothy 2:24, “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient.” Pastor Larkin was a servant of the Lord Jesus in all areas and an example for all of us.

Some other personal characteristics of Larkin are observed as one reads the book.

  1. Larkin is not sensational. He is a matter-of-fact writer.

  2. Larkin believes the scriptures as they are written.

  3. When symbolism[10] is used in Revelation Larkin interprets it with scripture.

  4. The charts are well-drawn, easily understood, and major scripture, when applicable, are noted.

  5. The charts are illustrated with the adult student in mind and are not cartoonish, sensational, nor inappropriate. They are professional in all aspects and bring out the difficult aspects of the book of Revelation in a clear manner.

I would heartily recommend obtaining a copy of Pastor Clarence Larkin’s, ‘The Book of Revelation,’ to all serious students of prophecy.

Alan

 

[1] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d. & n.pag.

[2] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 33

[3] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 38

[4] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 38 & 39

 

[5] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 62-64

[6] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 82-88

[7] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 141

[8] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 176-191

[9] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 186 & 187

[10] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 32

 

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"Rightly Dividing" really is the key to understanding what applies to you and where you fit into God's plan.  I just left a IFB church because the pastor has no clue, he plucks verses out of context,  mixes and matches them and "throws them in a blender" and calls that his Spirit inspired "sermon".  No wonder his "congregation" are a bunch of immature "sheep" that have no understanding. 

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"Rightly Dividing" really is the key to understanding what applies to you and where you fit into God's plan.  I just left a IFB church because the pastor has no clue, he plucks verses out of context,  mixes and matches them and "throws them in a blender" and calls that his Spirit inspired "sermon".  No wonder his "congregation" are a bunch of immature "sheep" that have no understanding. 

Plucking verses out of context seems to be the norm.  Jacob's trouble only appears once in Jeremiah and Jeremiah said it applied to his day, and that God would bring the exile to an end, which he did.  Just because someone 100 years or so ago placed it in the future, we don't all have to follow like sheep.

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Plucking verses out of context seems to be the norm.  Jacob's trouble only appears once in Jeremiah and Jeremiah said it applied to his day, and that God would bring the exile to an end, which he did.  Just because someone 100 years or so ago placed it in the future, we don't all have to follow like sheep.

Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

"... so that none is like it..."

This is not referring to the end of the Babylonian Captivity, nor any other historical incident in the history of Israel. It is a direct reference to the Tribulation Period as prophesied by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:13-22 and fulfilled in Revelation Chapter 6:1-19:10 The Lord Jesus plainly stated, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21

For a person to say that the time of Jacob's trouble is just a historical event already taken place is a disbelief, and denial, of the very words by Jesus Christ Himself.

Jeremiah 30:8, "For it shall some to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."

"... that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."

Again, this was not true after the Babylonian Captivity nor any other time of the history of Israel. Even today, the nation of Israel is subject to the whims of the world, pressure from the United States, and pressure from the United Nations. Under Ezra, King Darius was still the King over Israel and decreeing what could be built and what not could be built, Ezra 6:1-15 After King Darius , King Artaxerxes, Ezra 7:1-27, ruled over Israel as King.

The book of Nehemiah is also quite clear that Nehemiah had to get permission under King Artaxerxes, Nehemiah 2:1-8, to repair Jerusalem, and Nehemiah 3, the wall, Nehemiah 7:1

Nehemiah 9:36 is very clear that Jeremiah 30:8 was not fulfilled after the captivity nor any time since, "Behold, we are servants this day, and for the land that thou gavest unto our fathers to eat the fruit thereof and the good therefor, behold, we are servants in it." Jeremiah 30:8. Even in the time of the Lord Jesus the Jews were servants in their own land. Again, to say that this applied in Jeremiah's age is historically not correct. 

Jeremiah 30:9, "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their King, whom I will raise up unto them."

"But they shall serve the LORD their God... " After the Captivity, and in every age since then, the glory of God was not in the Temple that the Jews built nor in Herod's Temple. So, this has not been fulfilled.

"... and David their King, whom I will raise up unto them."

King David has not been raised up from the dead. King David will be raised up from the dead and again reign in Israel as prophesied in Jeremiah 30:9.

Conclusion,

"The time of Jacob's trouble," has not been fulfilled in any way; either symbolically or historically. This is not a doctrine of Clarence Larkin, nor was it thought of 100 years ago: it is a biblical doctrine. God blessed Clarence Larkin with the ability to present it in a clear manner that we should be grateful to be able to study. To malign Clarence Larkin is not good.

“The time of Jacob’s trouble,” will be fulfilled as recorded in Revelation 6:1-19:10 To not to understand this fact is to show a person's lack of spiritual discernment, a lack of, "rightly dividing the scriptures," and a lack of belief in the literal fulfillment of the prophets.

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Alan
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

"Rightly Dividing" really is the key to understanding what applies to you and where you fit into God's plan.  I just left a IFB church because the pastor has no clue, he plucks verses out of context,  mixes and matches them and "throws them in a blender" and calls that his Spirit inspired "sermon".  No wonder his "congregation" are a bunch of immature "sheep" that have no understanding. 

beammeup is entirely correct. When a person is mature in the faith to be able to rightly divide the scriptures his walk with the Lord Jesus will be further enhanced.

 

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Thew whole of Jeremiah's  prophecies 

beammeup is entirely correct. When a person is mature in the faith to be able to rightly divide the scriptures his walk with the Lord Jesus will be further enhanced.

 

Thanks, I will read Jeremiah again.  We recently read Jeremiah in our daily readings and I did not understand those verses to be any different from his dire warnings of the then current events and that God would b ring the Jews back from the captivity, then Christ would come, which He did.  

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Jeremiah 30:9, "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their King, whom I will raise up unto them."

"But they shall serve the LORD their God... " After the Captivity, and in every age since then, the glory of God was not in the Temple that the Jews built nor in Herod's Temple. So, this has not been fulfilled.

"... and David their King, whom I will raise up unto them."

King David has not been raised up from the dead. King David will be raised up from the dead and again reign in Israel as prophesied in Jeremiah 30:9.

Alan

I neglected to give the reference verse to King David being raised from the dead as Jeremiah 30:9 prophesied.

In Ezekiel 37:1-14 we read the vision of the, "Dry Bones." This is a prophesy of the future restoration of the nation from the "graves" of the nations of the world.

 In Ezekiel 37:15-23 we have the vision of the, "Two Sticks," one stick representing Judah and one stick representing Joseph. One day, in the future, God will reunite them, and all of the tribes of the sons of Israel, and lastly Ezekiel prophies the great prophecy that David will be raised up, "at that day."

Ezekiel 37:24 & 25,"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever."

The title of "Prince," for King David is a direct and irrefutable reference to the Millennial Temple as prophesied by Ezekiel in Ezekiel 44:1-3 and 46:1-24

King David has not been raised from the dead to fulfill these literal prophesies. The raising of King David from the dead will be fulfilled literally and David's official functions as King and Prince will be fulfiled to the letter exactly as Jeremiah and Ezekiel foretells. All of the above prophescies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel will be fulfilled during the 1000 Year Reign of Christ as revealed in Revelation 20:4-6

Therefore, the prophesy of, "The Time of Jacob's Trouble," as written in Jeremiah 30:7-9 has not been fulfilled. The notes by Clarence Larkin in his book, "The Book of Revelation," concerning, "The Time of Jacob's Trouble," are correct in its entirety.

Alan

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OK I have read it again and it is still part of the prophecy of those days.  The captivity would be long and they were to build houses.  Their current troubles were Jacob's trouble but the Lord would bring them back from captivity.  We know, like Daniel, from Jeremiah that the captivity would be 70 years.

Please show me where this prophecy jumps to the future. 

Jer 29:28  For therefore he sent unto us in Babylon, saying, This captivity is long: build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
29  And Zephaniah the priest read this letter in the ears of Jeremiah the prophet.
30  Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
31  Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the LORD concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite; Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie:
32  Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught rebellion against the LORD.
1 ¶  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2  Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 ¶  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

It seems I didn't post the above but since you have posted further, very imaginative I will add:

I see David being raised as the Lord Jesus, the Son of David, and many Jews ended up serving him.

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OK I have read it again and it is still part of the prophecy of those days.  The captivity would be long and they were to build houses.  Their current troubles were Jacob's trouble but the Lord would bring them back from captivity.  We know, like Daniel, from Jeremiah that the captivity would be 70 years.

Please show me where this prophecy jumps to the future. 

Jer 29:28  For therefore he sent unto us in Babylon, saying, This captivity is long: build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
29  And Zephaniah the priest read this letter in the ears of Jeremiah the prophet.
30  Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
31  Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the LORD concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite; Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie:
32  Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught rebellion against the LORD.
1 ¶  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2  Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 ¶  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

It seems I didn't post the above but since you have posted further, very imaginative I will add:

I see David being raised as the Lord Jesus, the Son of David, and many Jews ended up serving him.

Invicta and fellow Brethren,

The prophecy of Jeremiah 29:28-32 and 30:1-3 has absolutly nothing to do with the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:7-10, "The Time of Jacob's Trouble."  The prophecy of Jeremiah 29:28-32 and 30:1-3 was indeed fulfilled after the captivity. As I proved irrefuteably, the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:7-10, "The time of Jacoob's Trouble," is still future. None, absolutly none, of the prophecies of Jeremiah 30:7-10 was fulfilled after the Bablylonian Captivity.

Alan

 

 

 

 

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It's not unusual for a prophecy to have a "partial fulfillment" and then a yet future "fulfillment".  For example, in Acts 2 Peter says "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".  Note that the Holy Spirit did not say that this is a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, but that it was "spoken of" by the prophet.  Paying very close attention to "the details" often reveal things we otherwise might miss or "gloss over".  Of course, if you are a preterist, then it is necessary for you to somehow find that all prophecies have been fulfilled.

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It's not unusual for a prophecy to have a "partial fulfillment" and then a yet future "fulfillment".  For example, in Acts 2 Peter says "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".  Note that the Holy Spirit did not say that this is a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, but that it was "spoken of" by the prophet.  Paying very close attention to "the details" often reveal things we otherwise might miss or "gloss over".  Of course, if you are a preterist, then it is necessary for you to somehow find that all prophecies have been fulfilled.

I am not a preterist and don't believe that all prophecies have been fulfilled, but then I am not a futurist so I don't believe that all prophecies are in the future.  

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Invicta,

I am very happy to hear that you are not a preterist.

Alan

I have said it often enough and have disgreed on the subject with Covenanter and others.  Preterists have to believe the so called early date for the Revelation  I do not.  I think the historical evidence for a late date is overwhelming.      

 

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I do hope that the discussion on Jeremiah 29 and 30 and its relationship of the time of Jacob's trouble as prophesied in Jeremiah 30:7-9 has been a blessing to all of you. If there are any other topics that need to be discussed concerning the book of Revelation by Larkin please let me know.

One fact that some brethren often overlook when studying chapter Revelation 6:1-19:10, the 7 Year Tribulatian Period, is that all the signs given by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 (discussed by Larkin on pages 62-64) are given to the Jews and not to the saints in the church age. We need to remind ourselves what the Lord Jesus told the early church.

The Lord Jesus plainly stated to the disciples concerning His coming again and restoring the kingdom to Israel, (see Acts 1:6), "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7 None of the signs of the times listed in the scriptures are for the church; they are all for the Jews.

Alan

 

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While I agree that the signs were given to the Jews, it was to the Christian Jews, and they were told to flee to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. I see nothing to say that that tribulation was for seven years,  Many things are supposed to happen in the tribulation, A bombs etc, In fact one writer said it was the A-BOMB-ination of tribulation.  All supposition  but I would appreciate it if anyone will offer their thoughts on what will happen during the tribulation and the extent of the same.  Of Course Matt, Mark and Luke do not mention the Antichrist in their accounts. 

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If you remember my Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study you may remember that I deliberately did not start with the 7 Year Tribulation period, but I started with Revelation Chapter 19

I am completely convinced that the church will not go through the, “time of Jacob’s trouble.” Most of Revelation 6:1-19:10 have been mangled by profit seeking saints, confused Charismatics, confused fundamentalists (Pastor Steven Anderson and Kent Hovind for example), and heretics above number.

I have pretty well stayed away from Revelation 6:1-19:10 in order to keep some resemblance of peace among the brethren in this forum. If a person wants to remain some semblance of sanity in studying prophecy I would suggest not, repeat not, watch any video put out by Pastor Steven Anderson, any Charismatic, or other sensationalist prophecy video.

As you asked a reasonable question, I will answer your question about the seven years and give a broad overview of 7 Year Tribulation Period in Revelation 6:1-19:10 And, since this thread is concerning the book on Revelation by Clarence Larkin, I will try and further limit my answers by what a person may discover by reading Larkin’s commentary. I do not want to deviate too much from this thread and if any moderator decides to curtail my answer, or this discussion, for any reason, that is acceptable with me. As the books of Mark and Luke are not mentioned by Larkin, I will not reference those two books.

To make sure that the moderators want me to continue this line of discussion on this thread, or to proceed to another thread, or to discontinue this line of discussion, I will wait another day before proceeding.

Alan

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If you remember by Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study you may remember that I deliberately did not start with the 7 Year Tribulation period, but I started with Revelation Chapter 19

I am completely convinced that the church will not go through the, “time of Jacob’s trouble.” Most of Revelation 6:1-19:10 have been mangled by profit seeking saints, confused Charismatics, confused fundamentalists (Pastor Steven Anderson and Kent Hovind for example), and heretics above number.

I have pretty well stayed away from Revelation 6:1-19:10 in order to keep some resemblance of peace among the brethren in this forum. If a person wants to remain some semblance of sanity in studying prophecy I would suggest not, repeat not, watch any video put out by Pastor Steven Anderson, any Charismatic, or other sensationalist prophecy video.

As you asked a reasonable question, I will answer your question about the seven years and give a broad overview of 7 Year Tribulation Period in Revelation 6:1-19:10 And, since this thread is concerning the book on Revelation by Clarence Larkin, I will try an further limit my answers by what a person may discover by reading Larkin’s commentary. I do not want to deviate too much from this thread and if any moderator decides to curtail my answer, or this discussion, for any reason, that is acceptable with me. As the books of Mark and Luke are not mentioned by Larkin, I will not reference those two books.

To make sure that the moderators want me to continue this line of discussion on this thread, or to proceed to another thread, or to discontinue this line of discussion, I will wait another day before proceeding.

Alan

This is your thread to direct, no need to wait for a Mod to tell you that. It would be helpful to get to some meat here and work our way through these important verses.

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John81,

Thank you for your desire to learn. I do hope that the following study will be a help to us all.

Invicta,

I will try and be brief and to the point. I will try and answer your first question on why most fundamentalists interpret  the Tribulation Period as seven years. I am cognizant of the recent debate on Daniel 9:24-27 and I am trying my best not to continue that debate. If we disagree, we will disagree with friendship and just continue to a broad overview of Revelation 6:1-19:10

My answer to your first question will somewhat condense the material found in Larkin's book on Revelation. In that section, pages 48-52, Larkin covers this aspect of 7 years quite well and has two charts that help his explanations.

Seven Years – Time of Jacob’s Trouble

7 Year Tribulation Period

In Daniel 9:20-27 we have the vision given by the angel Gabriel to Daniel concerning the work of the Messiah the Prince. Daniel 9:24 says, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.”

These seventy weeks are weeks of years. The last week of years is a seven-year period to finish the work of the prophecy of Daniel 9:20-27[1] We need to take careful heed and realize that the Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy of the end times concerning the work of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah the prince of Daniel 9:25, Revelation 1:1 and 19:10 

Daniel 9:27 plainly states, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The time of Jacob’s trouble, or the Tribulation Period, will be this seventieth week of seven years. At the middle of the week, the Antichrist will break the covenant with the Jews and he will cause the sacrifices to cease.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 the Apostle Paul is teaching the Thessalonian church some facts concerning the 7 Year Tribulation period. In direct reference to Daniel 9:27 Paul makes this statement concerning the Antichrist, or as Paul writes, “man of sin,” or, “the son of perdition,” “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:4

All of this is depicted in Revelation 6:1-19:10

Alan

 

[1] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 48-52

 

 

 

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Thanks Alan, I hope we can disagree without bitterness.  The preacher who we have this evening in one of his messages said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable.  

The are three mentions of great tribulation in the scripture and I maintain that they are three different things.

Mt 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is confined to the Jews
Re 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.This is confined to a particular church,   the church in Thyatira 

Re 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Those who have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb can only refer to Christians as they are the only ones  who have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  I believe that refers to all Christians who have suffered tribulation through the ages.  Whether it was through the Roman Empire, the Inquisition, Communists, N Korea etc, ISIS, or Pakistan and similar countries where Christians suffer death and torture from families, friends, or religious organisations.  And those who will suffer till Christ comes.

'Most fundamentalists' in America may interpret  the Tribulation Period as seven years. but I don't know many Christians here that do. I personally know few who would believe the pre tribulation rapture theory apart from the Brethren, which I left about 39 years ago.  One is an old friend of mine, who I only see rarely now and he is a charismatic, and has been involved in a number of strange 'churches'  over the years.  He once told me that it if it had not been for meeting me he would still have been in some of them.  The other is a strange bedfellow for you. He is a member of the Worldwide Church of God, the Armstrongite church, although they have thrown off many of the teachings of Armstrong.  They do still meet on Saturdays.  They used to follow the Jewish festivals, although he says they don't now. They used to do to Devon for two weeks to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, but now they go to the same place but call it the harvest festival. They are celebrating it now, he was there last week and this.  He started coming to our church after we did a leaflet drop one Easter.  He moved away to Folkestone a few years ago and now rarely comes on a Sunday, because it is a journey with a bus, a train and another bus, but he does come regularly to our seniors lunch on Tuesdays.  (a long way to come for lunch).  I don't know if the PTR is a teaching of the WWCOG or if it is just him, if he comes on Tuesday I will ask him.  If it is not their teaching I will have to ask him where he got it from. 

 

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      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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