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Matthew24

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Matthew24,

Texe Marrs, and Pastor Sam Adams, is your clear answer! Texe Marrs is a Charismatic, conspiracy theroist, rabid anti-Semitic, hater of the nation of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texe_Marrs In my estimation Texe Marrs is a false prophet. Texe Marrs is definately not an independent Baptist.

There are three things that Texe Marrs has in common with Pastor Anderson.

1. His hatred of the Scofield Reference Bible.

2. His conspiracy theories against the United States of America.

3. His anti-Semitisim.

In fact, Texe Marrs is more anti-Semitic than Pastor Anderson.

I wanted a clear answer from you, not Texe Marrs, nor anything from Pastor Sam Adams ( I am already familiar with Pastor Adams).

Matthew24, again, I ask you, not somebody else, to answer the questions that I poised concerning the Scofield Reference Bible.

"The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness." Proverbs 15:14

Your statement concerning C.I. Scofield and a Zionist funded commentary was vague, ambiguous and tended to make the casual reader think you are anti-Semitic.

In order to have full understanding, and seek knowledge in your posting we need more information concerning your posting. Could you please answer my above post, and the following two questions, with clear, precise and referenced answers. These three questions are important to understand your posting and reasoning.

1. Are you referring to the C. I. Scofield Reference Bible as a Zionist funded commentary?

2. Is anything financed by a Jew, or a Zionist organization, inherently bad? or evil? or unscriptual?

3. Please define, "Zionist."

Please give appropriate scriptual answers and specific, clear answers with references that can be checked and verified.

Alan

 

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

 

Can you please give me your, not somebody elses, clear, precise, answers to the above four questions. Broad answers are evasive answers. Please give exact, and appropriate,  scripture verse to prove exact reasons why Scofield is an apostate. As most who have studied the Scofield Reference Bible is knowledgeable with the shortcomings of it and Brother Scofield I am not seeking a debate on those issues.

Specifically, the first three questions deal with Zionism and the forth question is concerning Scofield being an apostate.

Alan

 

 

 

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I've not watched the video and don't know anywhere near enough about eschatology to speak to it, but I do have a question, prompted by Alan's request for a definition of the word 'Zionist'. On this forum I hear the word 'antisemitic' and 'antisemite' used a lot. Where I live, the word is most often used when talking about someone like a holocaust denier or a Nazi sympathiser. Alan, since you're the person who's used the word on this thread, would you be up for giving a definition of the word 'antisemite'? And by that I mean a definition in your own words--obviously I can look up dictionary definitions for myself.

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

John81 was talking about Anderson's approach and presentation, not yours, Alan! lol

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matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

Alan,

If you are referring to my post previous to yours quoted here the only portion relating to you was my appreciation for your review. The rest of the post was with regards to Anderson. After reading my post again I can see how you many have mistook my intent. In essence that post was in agreement with your previous post with my adding what I've noticed of Anderson. Sorry for the confusion.

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Alimantado and John81,

I want to publicly thank both of you. The post by John81 that I miss-understood could be read two ways. Everything is perfectly clear and in good order.

Concerning the definition of the word 'anti-Semitic' (noun) or 'anti-Semitic.' I have heard of the definition that you mentioned that it used for a holocaust denier or a Nazi sympathizer. I normally would not use that as a definition and consider that definition too narrow.

In my understanding, being an anti-Semitic would be one who is prejudiced against the Jews. This is a more broader definition and a more accurate one I believe.

As far as a clear definition of 'Zionism,’ or, Zionist,' that may also be somewhat difficult and may cause consternation between individuals who view the Jewish homeland in different ways. One of the reasons why I asked Matthew24 to define 'Zionist' is to make sure we are talking about the same thing, idea, or situation. I did not want to be bias before I read Matthew24 explain himself more fully.

Since you asked, I would define 'Zionism,' as a movement that supports a national homeland for the Jewish race in current land of Israel. A 'Zionist,' is either one who supports, materially, politically, morally or spiritually, a national homeland for the Jewish race in the land called Israel. I would gladly listen attentively to any alternate definition.

Brethren,

Again, I understand there may be differences in the terminology among good brethren in this matter. That is why I did not want to prejudice Matthew24, or anyone else on OnLine Baptist. I want to understand Matthew24's original post according to his definition; not mine.

Either way, I still believe that the four questions that I put forth to Matthew 24 are good, honest, questions that Matthew24 needs to answer, in his own words, using his own definitions, backed by scriptural reasoning. His accusations against the C.I. Scofield Reference Bible being funded as a  Zionist conspiracy is inherently biased against the Jews no matter what definition is used, and the assertion that anything funded by Jews or Zionists, whatever definition he wants to use, as unscriptural or evil, needs to be answered. The fourth question arose after I viewed the video as calling a brother, C.I. Scofield, apostate, and those who follow the pre-tribulation rapture apostate, are serious accusations. So, the accusations are in his first post, (except for the fourth question), so, in my estimation my four questions are legitimate, honest, scriptural, worthy of an answer, and of the Lord.

Alan

 

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Wow, so much going on here.

Most regulars know I am the one mod who holds to a post-trib/pre-wrath position. However, I repudiate Anderson and his manners, the same way I would do so with Ruckman-I might agree in doctrine with some things they believe, but their manners and other beliefs I disagree with, and as such I wouldn't align myself with them in any of the things I agree on.

 That being said, I disagree with the idea that the entire tribulation period is all the wrath of God falling on the world. In fact, that the Antichrist and the false prophet and the dragon, Satan, are given almost free reign during the major portion of it, (though clearly ultimately subdued by the Lord), tells me that the Lord is sending tribulation, not wrath, upon the earth. Part of what we see happening, particularly in the trumpets, are demonic activity, (the locusts, four angels chained in the Euphrates), as well as God's judgments upon the earth and its rulers, (hail and fire mingled with bold, natural disasters, etc.), things, I think, that mankind will assume are natural things, great disasters, but not of God directly. And these things are designed to elicit repentance among those on earth. However when God's wrath falls, the vials of wrath, they come quickly, one after another, designed to kill and destroy many, followed quickly by the return of Christ to earth to destroy the nations of the world seeking to destroy Jerusalem. 

Notice what is said when the 7th trumpet sounds: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev 11:15-18)

So now we see, the time of wrath was not come, (the wrath was not already in progress, it comes after the seventh trumpet), AND the time for the judging of the dead, (the lost), and rewarding of the saints was come now. And it is after this, in rev 14, that we see Jesus on the cloud reaping the harvest of the earth-the Rapture. And immediately after that, the VINE of the earth is reaped and gathered into the winepress of the wrath of God.

It seems to me such a clear separation here.

I also don't see the timing of the rapture as being such a big deal as to call anyone who disagrees an apostate-that word tends to get thrown around way too easily today. That the Lord is coming in the clouds to take His people back, and that He is also coming again as reigning King are the important things. He will sort out the details Himself. If I am wrong, I am more than happy to be received out before it occurs-if I am wrong, I have no doubt that He will be able to make those who believe otherwise to be able to handle the change just fine. I don't see it as a reason to separate. I don't even fight over it anymore-if it comes up I am happy to discuss it, but if not, I let it lie.

As for not knowing the time, I suspect the way things will occur, we could be into the process before many realize it. There will be no headlines saying "The Great Tribulation has started today!" So, the Bible says we will know the times and the seasons, just not the day nor the hour. I suspect we will see it coming, but won't know exactly when. But it also says, in 1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 

As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

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As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

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This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

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1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

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Pretrib Believers are looking for Jesus. BTW, same as Islam and Jews....why wouldn't they take the mark? I don't believe the elect will, but the many unsaved "Christians" who blindly follow Hollywood will *BTW I have heard Anderson say that the elect will not be deceived...so obviously, he is contradicting himself, or you misunderstood.  I am looking for the antichrist first and the falling away. Why is it bad that Anderson hates Pretrib? lol. The elect are the saved. The thought of blessing a nation, that to become a citizen, one must denounce Jesus, is simply unbelievable. You think I am misguided(crazy) because I don't believe we should bless a nation who teaches Jesus was the son of a roman soldier named Pantera. Anderson believes all people are the same and wants to see all Jews saved. I wouldn't call anyone a false teacher who is 100% right on the gospel.

Matthew 24,

In the video Pastor Anderson plainly states that the same Messiah that the Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews look for is the same Messiah that the pre-tribulation rapture believers look for. And you say the same thing. This is a very serious accusation. It is also a false accusation and a slander.

 

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I liked this documentary.  I watched it almost a month ago.  i actually enjoy listening to him (although I don't agree with everything he says) but his "America Great Babylon" movie on youtube is what started me back to reading and listening to the scriptures online and pulled me out of practicing paganism (Thank you Jesus that's over).  I know that he offends many but I enjoy his sermons. 

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Matthew24

In my estimation, you, and Pastor Anderson, are deceived in  many areas. Not only is your doctrine in error, but your total lack of civility is apalling. If one does not agree with you both you and pastor Anderson call them apostates without scriptural reasoning.

 

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No...once again, you only hear what you want. THE ELECT WILL NOT BE DECEIVED. You say Jesus can come at any moment, same as jews and muslims. The "Christians" that have never read their bible will be deceived.

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

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I

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

I don't think you are understanding what I mean when I say the elect will NOT BE DECEIVED. I am not talking about the elect will all believe in a post trib rapture. Matthew 24:24. For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. All I am saying is that the people that are saved will not be deceived and take the mark. I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE THAT TEACHES OR BELIEVES PRETRIB ARE APOSTATE. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I wasn't being clear. I don't speak for Anderson but from listening to him a ton, I would say he would agree with what I am saying. 

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I would say there are some preachers that know the truth but opt to teach the lie. It isn't popular. "God isn't a wife beater" lol....but wait a minute, does he scourge every son he recieves? The misconception lies in thinking the tribulation is God's wrath, which isn't in the bible. Directly after Jesus returns he pours out wrath(rev. 6-7). We aren't appointed to wrath. The bible never says we aren't appointed to tribulation or affliction. WATCH.

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Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

This is referencing His return for His people, the same thing referenced in 1Thes 4, the rapture. See, the Thessalonian church was afraid the rapture had already occurred and the tribulation had begun, but Paul first assured them of the reality of the rapture, then told them they didn't need to fear, because, though His coming would be as a thief, they would not be caught unawares because they were children of the day-they KNEW He was coming. If it is referencing His return at the end of the tribulation as King, (Rev 19), then there's no point mentioning it because in that case, whether pre-trib or pre-wrath, we will already be with Him and return with Him in glory. So it makes no sense to tell them that they won't be caught unaware, because they, we, will be WITH Him when He returns. We will return with Him.

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Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

The "big shot" is Steven Anderson who pastors Faithful Word Baptist Church ---->who has won 1000's to the Lord not only in the Phoenix area, but online as well. BTW, I wouldn't suggest a pretribber to take verses out of Matther 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. Why? These are parallel passages that in 2 of them, directly say Jesus comes After the Tribulation. That is why pretribbers cling to 1 Thess. 4. Why? It doesn't mention the timing....but guess what? It sounds just like all of the other rapture passages in Matt, Mark, Luke, Rev6, Rev14. HE WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS, WITH POWER, AND GLORY< AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. HOLLYWOOD IS WRONG!

If you take the bible literally it says, we will not know the day or hour, but it explicitly says we know the time and seasons. We aren't in darkness.

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Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two different events.  1 Thessalonians 4 will happen first.  Why?  Because we rise to meet the Lord in the air.  We don't meet Him on the Earth.  The then takes us to His Father's House as promised in John 14:1-3.  While we are with Him at the Father's House, the bowls of wrath will be poured out on the Earth.  After all is completed concerning God's wrath on mankind, Jesus will return and set up His millennial Kingdom. 

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