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The Widow's Mites


Standing Firm In Christ

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
28 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

You Bible nowhere says we are to give a monetary tithe.  Yet you add to the Bible in order to preach one.

the passage about the widow indicates the widow was being robbed by the scribes through the taking of her needed money.  Yet you deny it.

First, I have made no reference to "tithing" in my comments, because Mark 12:38-44 makes no reference to the matter of "tithing."  Even in the event of the passage, there is no indication from the passage that either the other people or the poor widow were giving any form of tithe.  Therefore, bringing the matter of "tithing" into the passage is an assumption, not a matter of Biblical revelation.  No, whether this passage has any value for your position against "tithing" is specifically rooted to whether this passage deals with the matter of compulsion for giving.

Second, I do not at all deny that widows were being robbed of their material welfare by the scribes (although there is no specific indication from the passage that the poor widow of Mark 12:41-44 was one of those widows who had been so robbed).  Furthermore, I do not at all deny that the scribes were robbing widows by "taking" from them (since by definition the idea of "taking" is a very part of "robbing"). 

However, I do certainly deny that the passage makes any indication that the scribes were "devouring widows' houses" specifically by compelling them to give unto the temple treasury.  In fact, the passage does not reveal anything about the manner by which the scribes were "devouring widows' houses."  Therefore, making any statement as to the manner by which the scribes were accomplishing this is formulated by human assumption, not by Biblical revelation.

Now, claiming that the context reveals this is not valid - because the passage does NOT indicate that Jesus was watching how the people were giving by compulsion, because the passage does NOT indicate that either the other people or the poor widow gave what they gave by compulsion, and because in Jesus' comments of comparison between the other givers and the poor widow, He did NOT declare that any single one of them had given by compulsion.

The idea of giving by compulsion is NOT found in a single word of the passage, even including the statement that the scribes were "devouring widows' houses," because the manner by which they did this devouring is not revealed in the statements of the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

It is not slanderous to say many are coerced to tithe their money through guilt or fear tactics.

 

I have been in many services in many different denominations that teach tithing through fear and guiltw.  The church that kicked me out was one such church.  There are also many Baptist videos on youtube, sermonaudio, sermonindex, et. Al.; that manipulate the congregations giving through those very same tactics.

 

 

Again, as Pastor Markle aptly noted the passage never says she gave a 'tithe' that is you assumption. And, you use that assumption to say she was 'robbed' and whoever gives a tithe or offering is doing so through coercion. It is so slanderous to say the widow was coerced. "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10:18

And, what bad experience in the area of tithing that you had is no reason to say that this is as wide spread in independant baptist churches as you presume. "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10:18

Some people are tired of hearing slander in this forum.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
6 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

What I see in the text of Mark 12:38-44 is a bankrupt religion bankrupting widows.

And what I see in the text of Mark 12:38-44 is a contrast between selfish scribes and a sacrificial widow.

Indeed, what I see is a contrast between the greediness of the scribes in selfishly taking for their own sake (even at the expense of helpless widows) and the generosity of the widow in sacrificially giving for the Lord's sake (unto the treasury of the Lord's temple).

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2 hours ago, Alan said:

Again, as Pastor Markle aptly noted the passage never says she gave a 'tithe' that is you assumption. And, you use that assumption to say she was 'robbed' and whoever gives a tithe or offering is doing so through coercion. It is so slanderous to say the widow was coerced. "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10:18

And, what bad experience in the area of tithing that you had is no reason to say that this is as wide spread in independant baptist churches as you presume. "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10:18

Some people are tired of hearing slander in this forum.

I never said the widow of Mark 12 was tithing.  You are attempting to twist my words to something I never said.  Read my post again.  I said my mother was robbed by her pastors through the tithe lie just as the widow was being robbed by the demands of the religious leaders of her day.

 

What I see in the text of Mark 12:38-44 is a bankrupt religion bankrupting widows.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
3 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

And, you use that assumption to say she was 'robbed' and whoever gives a tithe or offering is doing so through coercion.

Read the whole sentence instead of just part of it.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎20‎:‎40‎, Pastor Scott Markle said:

And what I see in the text of Mark 12:38-44 is a contrast between selfish scribes and a sacrificial widow.

Indeed, what I see is a contrast between the greediness of the scribes in selfishly taking for their own sake (even at the expense of helpless widows) and the generosity of the widow in sacrificially giving for the Lord's sake (unto the treasury of the Lord's temple).

 

Concerning Mark 12:38-44

1.  The Caution to the People

     Mark 12:38 – “And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes . . . .”

     a.  To avoid fellowshipping with them.

     b.  To avoid following their ways.

2.  The Character of the Scribes

     a.  Arrogant superiority.  Mark 12:38-39 – “Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts.”

     b.  Oppressing selfishness.   Mark 12:40 – “Which devour widows’ houses . . . .”

     c.  Pretentious spirituality.  Mark 12:40 – “. . . And for a pretence make long prayers. . . .”

3.  The Condemnation of the Scribes

     Mark 12:40 – “. . . These shall receive greater damnation.”

4.  The Consideration of the Givers

     Mark 12:41 – “And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury . . . .”

      a.  Consideration of the many rich.  Mark 12:41 – “. . .  And many that were rich cast in much.”

      b.  Consideration of the poor widow.  Mark 12:42 – “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.”

5.  The Commendation of the Widow

     Mark 12:43 – “And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury.”

     a.  Because she gave out of her want.  Mark 12:43 – “For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want . . . .”

     b.  Because she gave a higher percentage, even 100%.  Mark 12:43 – “. . .  But she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.”

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I know technically that the "tithe" was 10% of a man's agricultural abundance (it was an agrarian society they lived in unlike our consumer/monetary based society of today) but a lot of people use the term when referring to giving in general. "Did you tithe at church today?" can simply mean , "Did you give at church today?" IMO.  It's like how "the house of the Lord" in the OT was historically and doctrinally the tabernacle\temple but Christians spiritually apply those verses to the local church ("I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord" i.e. "let's go to church). I realize you need to get the OT doctrine down straight but you can become so rigid in doctrine you can forget any devotional application to a Christian today. Remember, all scripture is given for instruction in righteousness. It's not some dead book relegated to the past.

This is why I say that the "tithe" is not wrong for today if you teach it in a devotional sense. I see nothing wrong with a man using the OT tithe as a principle for giving 10% of his earnings each week or month. How much a preacher should force the issue is up to debate.  I do have a pastor friend who never passes a plate around but has a box in the back of his church that you put money in if you want to give. He has now moved into his third building because the church keeps growing. I will say though that I do believe that a Christian, even though he may be under grace giving, can still rob God. 

At the heart of this issue, IMO, is that some don't want to be brow beaten into a guilt trip or have another legalistic burden placed upon them. Or perhaps they have been robbed by a greedy pastor or crooked missionary in the past like my brother was who now refuses to give anything.

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There was no commendation in the text of Mark 12:41ff. The immediate preceding text reveals that widows were being robbed. The immediate text after shows Jesus' anger at the unjust oppression of the widows... He states that the Temple will be destroyed. Why make the statement that the Temple would be destroyed at all, if not because of the unjust actions of its leaders? The prophecy of the Temple's destruction is made due to the actions Christ and His Apostles had just witnessed inside,... a widow being robbed. Context shows no commendation whatsoever.

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1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

I know technically that the "tithe" was 10% of a man's agricultural abundance (it was an agrarian society they lived in unlike our consumer/monetary based society of today) but a lot of people use the term when referring to giving in general. "Did you tithe at church today?" can simply mean , "Did you give at church today?" IMO.  It's like how "the house of the Lord" in the OT was historically and doctrinally the tabernacle\temple but Christians spiritually apply those verses to the local church ("I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord" i.e. "let's go to church). I realize you need to get the OT doctrine down straight but you can become so rigid in doctrine you can forget any devotional application to a Christian today. Remember, all scripture is given for instruction in righteousness. It's not some dead book relegated to the past.

This is why I say that the "tithe" is not wrong for today if you teach it in a devotional sense. I see nothing wrong with a man using the OT tithe as a principle for giving 10% of his earnings each week or month. How much a preacher should force the issue is up to debate.  I do have a pastor friend who never passes a plate around but has a box in the back of his church that you put money in if you want to give. He has now moved into his third building because the church keeps growing. I will say though that I do believe that a Christian, even though he may be under grace giving, can still rob God. 

At the heart of this issue, IMO, is that some don't want to be brow beaten into a guilt trip or have another legalistic burden placed upon them. Or perhaps they have been robbed by a greedy pastor or crooked missionary in the past like my brother was who now refuses to give anything.

If your brother's pastor is using the Word of God to preach the lie that God requires your brother to give 10% of his income to the Church, then your brother is right not to give anything.  A pastor that handles the Word of God deceitfully should not be supported.

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8 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

I know technically that the "tithe" was 10% of a man's agricultural abundance (it was an agrarian society they lived in unlike our consumer/monetary based society of today) but a lot of people use the term when referring to giving in general. "Did you tithe at church today?" can simply mean , "Did you give at church today?" IMO.  It's like how "the house of the Lord" in the OT was historically and doctrinally the tabernacle\temple but Christians spiritually apply those verses to the local church ("I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord" i.e. "let's go to church). I realize you need to get the OT doctrine down straight but you can become so rigid in doctrine you can forget any devotional application to a Christian today. Remember, all scripture is given for instruction in righteousness. It's not some dead book relegated to the past.

This is why I say that the "tithe" is not wrong for today if you teach it in a devotional sense. I see nothing wrong with a man using the OT tithe as a principle for giving 10% of his earnings each week or month. How much a preacher should force the issue is up to debate.  I do have a pastor friend who never passes a plate around but has a box in the back of his church that you put money in if you want to give. He has now moved into his third building because the church keeps growing. I will say though that I do believe that a Christian, even though he may be under grace giving, can still rob God. 

At the heart of this issue, IMO, is that some don't want to be brow beaten into a guilt trip or have another legalistic burden placed upon them. Or perhaps they have been robbed by a greedy pastor or crooked missionary in the past like my brother was who now refuses to give anything.

Our church has a box at the back. Well two actually, one on each side.  When it was decided that the plate would no longer be passed around, some said the giving would drop.  In fact it increased. That was more than 20 years ago and we have never had need to reconsider the decision. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2015‎ ‎5‎:‎37‎:‎52‎, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

Concerning Mark 12:38-44

1.  The Caution to the People

     Mark 12:38 – “And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes . . . .”

     a.  To avoid fellowshipping with them.

     b.  To avoid following their ways.

2.  The Character of the Scribes

     a.  Arrogant superiority.  Mark 12:38-39 – “Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts.”

     b.  Oppressing selfishness.   Mark 12:40 – “Which devour widows’ houses . . . .”

     c.  Pretentious spirituality.  Mark 12:40 – “. . . And for a pretence make long prayers. . . .”

3.  The Condemnation of the Scribes

     Mark 12:40 – “. . . These shall receive greater damnation.”

4.  The Consideration of the Givers

     Mark 12:41 – “And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury . . . .”

      a.  Consideration of the many rich.  Mark 12:41 – “. . .  And many that were rich cast in much.”

      b.  Consideration of the poor widow.  Mark 12:42 – “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.”

5.  The Commendation of the Widow

     Mark 12:43 – “And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury.”

     a.  Because she gave out of her want.  Mark 12:43 – “For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want . . . .”

     b.  Because she gave a higher percentage, even 100%.  Mark 12:43 – “. . .  But she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.”

Pastor Markle,

Thank you for the excellent study and observations on the commendation of the Lord Jesus towards the widow and the hypocitical giving of the Scribes. The Lord Jesus is plainly showing us the contrast between the Scribes and the widow and her mites.

The Lord Jesus knows the heart attitude of all those who give. The Lord Jesus is giving us the start contrast of those who give 'grudgingly' and those who give 'cheerfully and purposely' out of a heart of love. The widow who gave her all is our example to follow as we give our time, talents, and treasures.

Alan

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There is no indication of willful giving in Mark 12:38ff.

There is no indication of commendation in Mark 12:38ff.

 

context shows robbery was being witnessed right before the eyes of the Lord and His Apostles.

 

Why anyone would think that Jesus would commend someone for being robbed by thieves is beyond incredible,... especially in view of the fact that He warns us to beware of thieves.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The Lord Jesus commended the widow and condemned the scribes. The widow was not robbed in any sense of the word.

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Mark 12:40a "Which devour widows houses,..."

 

devour - Greek 'katesthio'

Outline of Biblical Usage:
to consume by eating, to eat up, devour
of birds
of a dragon
of a man eating up the little book
metaph.
to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance
to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property
to strip one of his goods
to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)
by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy
of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions

 

the whole purpose of Jesus sitting against the wall was to demonstrate to His followers how the widow's living was being "forcibly appropriated."  She was forced to give all her living by the scribes of the Law, just as we are forced to pay taxes by the scribes of our laws.

 

Jesus was not commending the widow on her giving at all.  He was pointing out to His followers that she gave all her living because she was being forced to do so.

The forced taxation did little to hurt the rich, yet it oppressed the poor greatly, taking away from that which they needed to survive.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

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4 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Hmmmm, I wonder what you might consider an "above average" income.  As for myself, I, my wife, and my two children have lived for many years on less than $30,000 per year.  Yet my wife does not work outside the home; my children are homeschooled (was - for the oldest, since he is now in Bible college training for the ministry); and we (my wife and I) have given (because we purposed in our hearts to do so) 20% of all our increase unto the work of the Lord in honor unto our Lord.  In addition, I believe that we as a family have lived quite joyfully and comfortably in so doing. 

"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." (2 Corinthians 9:6 - a New Testament promise)

"And God is able to make all grace abound toward you: that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God." (2 Corinthians 9:8 & 11, with the parenthetical of verses 9-10 removed - another New Testament promise)

"Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for you food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness." (2 Corinthians 9:10 - a New Testament prayer)

"Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift." (2 Corinthians 9:15 - a New Testament motivation for bountiful giving)

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5 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with a set list of rules in the IFB.  Established rules in any organization is a must if that organization is to run effectively.  One has the choice to become a member or not.

 

However, when any denomination, IFB or otherwise, invents rules such as the monetary tithe and claims that the Bible teaches said rule, (using Leviticus 27:30; Malachi 3:8-10; Matthew 23:23, or any other verse in the Bible as their "proof-text") that denomination is clearly handling the Word of God deceitfully..

 

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10 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Rules or biblical principles?  Off the top of my head I can think of verses which support the first two but what about the third?

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