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It has been said by many that in the story of the widow who put her last two mites in the Temple Treasury was being commended by Jesus after she did so.

I am not so sure this was the case.  Notice:

Mark 12:38-44 And he said unto them in his doctrine, BEWARE OF THE SCRIBES, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: WHICH DEVOUR WIDOWS HOUSES, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

If one reads the text in context, (beginning at verse 39) one will see Jesus was warning of religious leaders who, "rob widow's houses".  Then, He sits against a wall across from the Treasury.  Lo and behold, a widow comes and drops all her living into the Treasury. 

What I see in that text is Jesus pointing out a destitute women has just been robbed, not that He was commending her.  Her money could have purchased some needed things that she lacked, but she put it in the Treasury?  Why? 

The Scribes, the LawMakers, had demanded her needed money.

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Amen! That is the biblical truth there!! It's sad to hear Baptist preachers sound so much like the prosperity preachers they denounce, when they come before

While I'm thankful for Bro. Alan's testimony that he has never used Malachi 3:10 as a proof text for Christian tithing...and his testimony that he agrees that Christians aren't commanded to tit

I think this topic has been thoroughly discussed. Thanks to all for their input.

Tithing was a Levitical law. We (saved/church/bride) are not under the law but under grace. I come under fire for this belief often, yet I believe that's exactly what the bible teaches. Now tha

The widow was not tithing.  We can know this for several reasons.   1.  The Law was still in effect.  The Law would not

We also get upset about Replacement Theology; however, much of today's church practices a form of Replacement Theology (without even realizing it). Today's church has replaced Israe

In fact, excellent post NN! The only thing I would add is that a persons heart needs to be led by the Lord after prayer regarding their giving. While some recognize this, many are very haphaza

1 Kings 17:8-24 Speaks of another widow who gave all she had, in faith. Just like the widow in 1 Kings 17, the widow in Luke 21 was giving all she had in faith too.  As Jesus and the disciples

Read it again slowly bro. You base your ideas on doctrine from men's slanted views as you just proved again. Someone told you this nonsense that you just posted again as if it were

Pastor Markle, I see... you then believe that the application of the word "gifts" in Luke 1:1 would suggest that the widow was also casting in "gifts"?  Luke 1:1  " And

I'm not trying to stir up anything Jim, and unless I misunderstand what you're saying...but that's not a true statement regarding SFIC. He does believe in giving to the work of the

Surprisingly, those who make these threats about God will get the tithe don't believe that giving to the needy or missionaries counts as giving to God, they believe the tithe is onl

I really do not know.  Since the passage does not say anything whatsoever about this, I choose not to make claims without information.  However, I could speculate on a whole number

Luke 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. 2 Chronicles 31: And

It is easily seen IMO that the widow was being manipulated into giving and this manipulation came from thieves posing as God's men. The overall context does indicate it because it is consistent

I suppose if I ignored the surrounding verses and ripped the one verse out of context, added a motive and commendation to the text, I could arrive at thr same false teaching that you do.

Our church has a box at the back. Well two actually, one on each side.  When it was decided that the plate would no longer be passed around, some said the giving would drop.  In fac

You're probably right... ...especially when you post a message publicly (that could have been sent privately) and worded in a way to goad the majority of pe

Hmmmm, I wonder what you might consider an "above average" income.  As for myself, I, my wife, and my two children have lived for many years on less than $30,000 per year.  Yet my w

Indeed, the word for "poor" in the context can mean "reduced to beggary, begging, asking alms;" yet it can also mean simply "poor, needy," even as your own set of definitions above

Indeed, on that very day in the temple the Lord Jesus Christ had instructed the people before He delivered His warning concerning the scribes and the Pharisees.  In that instruction

I have been holding off adding anything to this thread but will add to this last thought as my dad was a pastor for all his life. I have seen him many times be a "as wise as serpents but harmle

And what I see in the text of Mark 12:38-44 is a contrast between selfish scribes and a sacrificial widow. Indeed, what I see is a contrast between the gree

Titus 2 - 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;&#1

Alan,  I can't believe you said this to "standing firm"... I have seen others post things which contradict the bible and are clearly not IFB teaching. We even have mods who believe

Indeed.  And the very same Author also indicated that the temple was "the temple of God" and was God's house. Matthew 21:12-13 -- "And Jesus went into the t

Ah, could this be where Invicta and GP got all their theology, from books originally written during the quiet years but later labeled as reformed. The majority of the ideas dreamed

Whoa. I never thought the day would come that I'd hear the poor widow was a hard-hearted rebel for throwing her money into the till. But then nothing surprises me anymore.

There there is this to consider too: "Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding." Proverbs 23:23 It might

Ahhhh!  So then, do you utterly reject the Biblical factualness of the following “evidences” – 1.  Do you utterly reject the Biblical fact that there is no

From what language did the KJV translators translate the Bible into English?  There is nothing wrong with going to the source to find the meanings of words.  It doesn't mean that so

I've watched you with interest since you've joined... You've gone from making small, non-inflammatory posts when you first joined to making overtly challeng

It was everyone giving, yes.  But more was required of the widow than of the others.  They gave out of their abundance, she gave all. And yes, He was pointing out that she was being rob

That's because there is absolutely no command for Christians to tithe anything to the church. Such isn't even suggested. Unfortunately many Baptist pastors preach otherwise.

I wonder why, if this widow was genuinely being robbed, why did Jesus just sit back and use her as an object lesson? Why didn't he either go up to her privately before she put her money in, and

To "Swathdiver": In regard to Peter Ruckman:  I have not, (nor will I) listen to or read a "sermon" or teaching by that man, as he was not qualified to even be a pastor, having been

I don't see it as commendation either, although I admit at first glance looking only at the statement made by the Lord I thought so from a pretext in my mind when I first considered it. &

Let's quote the account of the Widow's Mite from Luke's gospel: Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats i

Nonsense Russ, you and this Invicta fella constantly quote external sources written by some "whocares" dudes who write about how some other "whocares" dudes are wrong about this or

dispensation, i.e.; economy/administration.   only the willfully blind can't see it in the KJV text.

Luke 20:45 (KJV) 45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, In the audience of all the people, i.e.; in the hearing of all the people, Jesus

Brother Robey, I do NOT intend to engage in a full discussion concerning the matter of the tithe within this thread (since this thread is NOT about tithing,

First, your above answer does remove my concern that you are willing to change the wording of the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures. Second, I do apologize fo

Well the problem of guessed meanings come into play since any greek linguist today will explain to you that any lexicon you can obtain now is at least four major vernacular changes away from th

The point was that these passages all employ the SAME GREEK VERB, and thereby indicate that this Greek verb does NOT INHERENTLY mean "violent action."

I don't get it from the internet or from books.  I was brought up in the Brethren who invented this teaching,  I was taught it for the first 20 years of my life. The dispensational

Brother Alan, Wednesday of last week I posted that which you quoted above concerning my intention to present some thoughts concerning the Greek verb "ballo.

Not trying to be offensive-it had to do with your assumption about other's training/teaching as opposed to your, apparently far superior knowledge. Which, by the way, I myself disce

Pastor Markle, I understand your viewpoint. I am happy to see that you also recognize that there is a contextual connection.  However... where you see a contrast, I see a compliment

Well, you really don't have any way of knowing where people have received their training. Personally, I think it may be a mistake if ALL you know you got yourself. Not that we aren'

Double check the bold above friend and reread my post carefully. Did you do it? Now is this what I said? Then reread the second bold; you asked me what I meant by anecdotal, remembe

Where do you get this nonsense. Certainly not from the Word. I suppose you believe everything you hear on the news and read in newspapers too? If you would

Earlier I asked for you to provide your historical source for this claim -- that the phrase, "offerings of God," was the inscription on the treasure box, and thus not actually our L

  what I "utterly reject" is your blatant pullin

The Scriptures were written in Koine Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT)...not in English.   God promised to preserve His Word long before the English language came into existence (Psalms 12

It is not I that is guilty of "dishonoring the Scriptures. Rather, those who "dishonor the Scriptures" are those who use Mark 12:41-44 & Luke 21:1-4 as proof-text that

In every IFB  church I have been a member of I have always seen the pastor help those in financial need and have never even heard of the 'robbing' of God's saints. I have seen pastors help thos

I would think that if God didn't want us to tithe, He would have clearly said it in a way everyone could see instead of hiding it in every single passage in Scripture. It seems to me (though I

The terminology of the text DOES indicate that the givers, including the widow, gave "unto the offerings [gifts] of God."  Thus the terminology of the text IS that of GIFT-GIVING. 

Hmmm, there is nothing in the text that indicates willingness and/or desire to give by the widow.  Yet you claim that is what happened.   the t

Any twisting of Scripture has come about through the purely personal opinions of SFIC. The Scripture in question does not support his flawed understanding of the facts that are plai

Brethren, Throughout this entire discussion I have been pleased with the way that Pastor Markle has definately proved his contentions: specificly that the w

There is nothing wrong with looking at the meaning of words that were originally written in another language and contemporary with the times they were written in.

  Yet there is something in the text which indicates that the money was going "unto the offerings of God." (See Luke 21:4) &#1

No, one Author -- God the Holy Spirit; and one perspective -- God the Holy Spirit's perspective.  Indeed, God the Holy Spirit's perspective is that the wido

  Convenient, how you completely disregard definition #5 above -- "poor, needy."  Now, of the 34 times that this adject

Thus, I have said that it didn't matter what the Pharisees were doing with the money Jesus told the disciples to still obey them. Also, I agree the the Pharisees didn't blow all the

I know you folks think that those who dismiss reformed "theologies" are the ones skewed by men but you reference other men to make these points. It is outrageously ironic. I know re

There have been many false claims that Darby started the doctrine of Dispensation.  However, as Ronda rightly said earlier, there are many historical writings that place despensation centuries

At the present it appears that the discussion of this thread is "winding down," and that is quite acceptable with me.  However, earlier in the thread I did make a commit

Pastor Markle, I do appreciate your time and study on this matter, as well as answering my questions.  But once again, I respectfully disagree.    &#1

I have no conflict with the meaning of the word "devour" as "forcibly appropriated," but that is not the point of the question.  The point of the question concerns "the manner by wh

Transliteration: oikonomia Pronunciation: oi-ko-no-mē'-ä  Part of Speech: feminine noun Root Word (Etymology): from G3623

It has been said by many that in the story of the widow who put her last two mites in the Temple Treasury was being commended by Jesus after she did so. I am not so sure this was the case.  Notice:

  Absolutely not.  For the first sixty or seventy years it was a Calvinist teaching, and not only Calvinist but an extreme for of Calvinist.  If you were no

I never got that from the passage. I always thought she was giving her all in faith; a cheerful giver, holding nothing back, truly trusting God to meet her needs, "worshipping in sp

Pastor Markle, Thank you for the excellent study and observations on the commendation of the Lord Jesus towards the widow and the hypocitical giving of the

If your brother's pastor is using the Word of God to preach the lie that God requires your brother to give 10% of his income to the Church, then your brother is right not to give an

I know technically that the "tithe" was 10% of a man's agricultural abundance (it was an agrarian society they lived in unlike our consumer/monetary based society of today) but a lot of people

  Concerning Mark 12:38-44 1.  The Caution to the People      Mark 12:38 – “And he said unto them in his d

First, I have made no reference to "tithing" in my comments, because Mark 12:38-44 makes no reference to the matter of "tithing."  Even in the event of the passage, there is no indi

Except that the passage does NOT say -- "which devour widows' houses by compelling them to give money."  In fact, the passage does not at all reveal the method by which the scribes

Brother Robey, I have refrained from engaging in this discussion to this point.  However, I do wish to express a few thoughts to your above comment.  Your c

Of the congregation, only landowners who had gardens, orchards, or livestock were required to tithe.  The Levites were required to tithe a tithe of the tithe.  Those who owned no la

Fraudsters is the correct label and brother, ain't that the truth on helping the poor WITHIN your church and without as you witness. The religious lost love those rules

There is nothing in the text to infer that the widow was giving either willingly or cheerfully.  There is evidence that she was being robbed.

My wife and I were voted out of a church membership because of our teaching against the "scriptural tithe"   Funny thing,... What we taught con

None for you  None for you, we know.  For me and my house we happily give of our tithes and offerings; our substance, the firstfruits of all our increase.  

It doesn't matter what motive a preacher has to preach tithing since there are no biblical grounds for such. Christians are not called to give any certain percentage or amount so to preach othe

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnOlJHTpEV8

You are correct, John.     What's sad is, they will pull all kind of Scripture out of context in an attempt to prove their man-made

I've been studying the topic of tithing both from a Biblical perspective and a historical perspective for nearly three decades now.  How about you? Likewise, I've been

There is no indication in the text that the widow had a desire to give.  Nor do Jesus' words infer what you claim.   no fear, guilt or intimida

Does not a person from the heart have a desire to give? "Keep thy heart with all dilgence; for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4;23

Alan, I do not want to argue and cause strife... I really don't.  But I have to tell you that I see a reason for Jesus talking about the heart motives of the religious leaders JUST PRIOR to tal

Coverdale, (1535) Bishop's, (1568) & Geneva (1587) all say "out of her poverty".  I have no reason to doubt that "out of her want" in the King James means "out of her poverty."

The very words of Jesus also stated in Mark 12:40 " 40 Which devour widows' houses ...." I see the words tying into the next sentences as well... so "Standing Firm" has brought out those words

You interpret the word "want" from a secular dictionary.   I look to the Greek for the interpretation.  The Greek for want carried

I'm sorry, Alan. I have to agree with "Standing Firm" on the usage of the word "want". I know we aren't supposed to bring the Greek into it, but it denotes "neediness/poverty".   I do believe s

Nothing intrinsically wrong with a set list of rules in the IFB.  Established rules in any organization is a must if that organization is to run effectively.  One has the choice to

Proverbs 3:9 is NOT about tithing monetary income, gross or net.   Solomon was living in the dispensation of the Law.  The Law stat

Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in t

So then, is it your belief that the Lord our God is contrary to the sacrificial giving of the poor and needy and would never commend such a practice? 2 Cori

Now, there is a verse in Neh. 10, that states that part of the tithe would be taken into the treasure house. "And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take ti

Sister Ronda, I recognize that your posting was directly specifically toward Brother "Swathdiver;" however, I wish to present a response unto your closing c

The fact that the widow heard Jesus warning is obvious.  And yet, she ignored it.   This shows a mind that is devoted to the corrupt scribes de

    So does the text NOT reveal what the widow was thinking and believi

Jesus pronounced 8 "woes" (exclamations of grief) or grievances against the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23.  In the two accounts of the widow's mites (Mark 12:38-44 and Luke 20:45-47 - Luk

Jim,  You accuse me of painting the picture with a broad brush.  I submit that were you not reading with a tunnel-vision bias toward a commendation of a widow supportin

Wait!!!  So, after multiple times of arguing against the opposing position by claiming that there is nothing in the text that reveals what the widow was thinking or what was her mot

Seriously??  If such were the case as you pointed out, we would not need the comparison that the "rich cast in much."  Many that were rich does not specify they were all lawmakers and scribes.  Rich w

Certainly, our Lord Jesus Christ had a strong rebuke against the scribes and Pharisees for their selfish and oppressive greediness.  Certainly, our Lord Jesus Christ lingered in the

Context reveals it.   Jesus had finished his scathing rebuke of rhe scribes and Pharisees.  He had ended with a warning to beware of the scribe

The many in Matthew 7:21-23 obviously thought they were in fellowship with the Lord too.  As did the Self-righteous man in Luke 18:9-12, I'm sure. God's Word says His h

SFIC, the tithe applies today as it did in the Garden of Eden.  I live it, my church teaches it and our prayers have not been hindered.  We have not been thrown out of church and we do not subs

If this were true then I would be regarding iniquity in my heart and the Lord would not hear me.  However, I've been in sweet fellowship with the Lord these last few days and he's b

False.  The text says that she was giving a gift "unto the offerings of God".

Yet the Holy Spirit reported that she was giving a gift, not that she was being robbed or compelled.  Holy Spirit, or Brother Robey?  Choices, choices.  I choose - the Holy Spirit.&

People put into the offerings of God all the time every Sunday.  Yet, it has been proven time and again that many do so out of manipulation and coercion.  Given the fact that this account is in

First, if indeed it was a gift as God the Holy Spirit indicated in Luke 21:1-4 (and I myself have no intention whatsoever of questioning God the Holy Spirit on the matter), then you

Brother Robey, Do you recognize that you have now engaged in circular reasoning?  Earlier you used your viewpoint that Jesus was angry as evidence that the

SFIC, this thread is about the widow's mites, yet you continue to insert tithing into the thread. This is not "my doctrine", your argument is with God's Hol

Did you not read what I prefaced my post with?  I do NOT listen to John MacArthur.  This was the very first time I ever listened to him. no, I don't denounc

So, you will listen to John MacArthur, and denounce all real Baptists on this forum? John is not a Baptist, he is a Community Church man. Believes in Lordship Salvation Too. He may be popular,

 

In the Bible, the tithe is not even mentioned in the account of the Garden of Eden.  To teach that it was in the Garden of Eden is to add to the Word of God.

Brother Robey, You speak as if all of my contributions to this discussion have ignored the context of Scripture and the comparison of Scripture with Scriptu

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And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

If one reads the text in context, (beginning at verse 39) one will see Jesus was warning of religious leaders who, "rob widow's houses".  Then, He sits against a wall across from the Treasury.  Lo and behold, a widow comes and drops all her living into the Treasury. 

What I see in that text is Jesus pointing out a destitute women has just been robbed, not that He was commending her.  Her money could have purchased some needed things that she lacked, but she put it in the Treasury?  Why? 

The Scribes, the LawMakers, had demanded her needed money.

Seriously??  If such were the case as you pointed out, we would not need the comparison that the "rich cast in much."  Many that were rich does not specify they were all lawmakers and scribes.  Rich were casting in a lot from their abundance but she cast in more.  If Jesus was pointing out they were robbing this poor widow, He would have just pointed out she gave all she had, now she has nothing.  He then goes on to point out she gave more than "all" that gave.  This was everyone giving, not just scribes and lawmakers.  He is pointing out her 100% and "all they" gave less than 100%.  This was not needed to be done if just pointing out that the scribes and lawmakers were thieves. 

And personally I don't see a widow being robbed.  Malachi 3:10&11 applies to her so she is being taken care of. 

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It was everyone giving, yes.  But more was required of the widow than of the others.  They gave out of their abundance, she gave all.

And yes, He was pointing out that she was being robbed.  Mark 12:38-40 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Jesus  was warning of religious leaders who, among other attrocities, were oppressing the widows, depriving them of what rightfully belonged to the widows.

Mark 12:41-44 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.


After warning of those unrighteous acts of the religious leaders, Jesus sat down across from the treasury and watched people give.  What was the purpose?  To show how the widows were being robbed.  More was required of them than of the rich that gave to the religious system.

There was no commending in that passage at all, only condemnation.

Malachi 3:10-11 has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 12:38-44.  Israel's tithes were agricultural, not monetary.  She was not tithing in the passage, nor were the rich.

 

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Tithing was a Levitical law. We (saved/church/bride) are not under the law but under grace. I come under fire for this belief often, yet I believe that's exactly what the bible teaches. Now that is not to say we shouldn't give to the church. But we are not obligated to a 10% tithe.  We should give from a cheerful heart (not grudgingly). I heard one preacher tell his congregation: "If you have unpaid bills, you better not be putting money into the plate".  I agree... when bills are manageable then give (willingly) and if you have looming taxes or utility bills needing paid... pay those first. And it would also depends on each person's walk with the Lord... as they are led by the Holy Spirit. Some years I have given a lot more than other years, it depended on true expenses (not talking about wants, but needs) and other years there wasn't as much to give. God knows the hearts/minds and situations. He meets the needs. 

2 Corinthians 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

I notice the words "or of necessity" , that shows that churches should not demand a set percentage of income (once again, we are not under Levitical law). But it also doesn't mean "give nothing", I'm not saying that at all... because "God loveth a cheerful giver". 

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1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

Seems maybe your are reading too much into this passage. It's pretty clear that Jesus was pointing out about quality and not quantity. Even after they robbed her house she still gave her tithe.

1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

 

The widow was not tithing.  We can know this for several reasons.

 

1.  The Law was still in effect.  The Law would not end until Jesus' death on the cross.  Ephesians. 2:14-15; Colossians. 2:14

2.  The Law said that God's holy tithe was to be agricultural, not monetary.  Leviticus 27:30-33

3.  Even if the widow had a farm to tithe from, she would not have tithed to the Temple.  She would have taken her tithe to the Levites in the farming community instead.  Numbers 18:24-28; Nehemiah 10:37-38

4.  Only Temple staff tithed to the Temple.  Nehemiah 10:37-38

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Permit me say something about this issue of the Widow and her Mites. And, why some people give their tithes and offerings to the church.

Maybe, just maybe, the poor widow gave her two mites, all that she had, (not because it was commanded by the law and the Pharisees commanded we give the tithe), but  because she loved the Lord and His work and His Temple.

Maybe, just maybe, some people in our age, give tithes and offerings (not because it is commanded by the law and the Pharisees command we give a tithe), but because we love the Lord, we love His work, and we love his church.

I honestly believe that the Widow gave all she had because she loved God in heaven and wanted to show her gratitude towards not only towards God in heaven, but help His work, financially, on the earth.

Why some folks give their Tithes and Offerings to the Church

And, in this day and age, a lot of folks give their tithe and offering because they love the Lord Jesus and love the church.

Paul told us to follow the example of the Law to give our finances to the Church

Furthermore, Paul the apostle, who wrote that we are not under the Law, told the Corinthian church to give financially (carnal things), to the church, as written in the Old Testament,  so that the ministers of the gospel can freely preach.

"Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vinyard, and eateth not the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, not doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth in hope should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." 1 Corinthians 9: 7 - 10

Paul quoted Deuteronomy 22:10 In the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, the minister is referred to as an "ox." These statutes, in the Law, were not only written for the Jews in Israel, under the Law, but for the church, under grace.

In 1 Timothy 5:17 and 18 Paul not only repeats this admonition in the care of the ministers at church but he goes one step further (under Grace and the Law): "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especilly they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." 1 Timothy 5:17 and 18

If a person really loves the church and the minister of God than Paul said to honor him with 'double.' Hmmm? I wonder what 'double' means?

In both 1 Corinthians 9:9 , Paul quoted from the Law as his authority: Deuteronomy 22:10

Deuteronomy 22:10, "Thou shalt not plow with and ox and an ass together."

Also, for your information, the ox was referring to the minister of God and the ass is referring to the ministers of unrigtheousness: such as, the Pharisees, the liberal, the Pope, the lost minister in these lost chuches, the false prophet in the Old Testament and the false teacher in the New Testament, and deceived brethren.

 

 

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The context of Mark 12:38-44 shows that the widow was being robbed.  

 

i believe that many people give 10% of their money because they love the Lord.  (God's holy tithe was to be agricultural, so the tenth of one's money is not His tithe according to God's Word)  However, many give that ten percent because they are lied to.  Every monetary tithe sermon I have ever heard, the pastor, or preacher runs to Leviticus 27:30 to prove that, "The tithe is the Lord's."  They then run to Malachi 3:10 and tell the people they are robbing God if they don't tithe their money.  Problem is, in running to Malachi, they place the people under the Law.

 

Is Tithing a Sin

Is tithing money a sin? Yes, it is,... if you are tithing money because, "the Bible commands us to tithe," or because "God's Word says I'll be cursed if I don't."

God's Word decides what is to be tithed, not us. If the preacher's tithe sermon contradicts what is written in God's Holy Word, God is right, the preacher is wrong. If man's belief concerning God's commanded tithe is contrary to what is written in the Bible about God's commanded tithe, God is right, man is wrong. The decision as to what is to be tithed, to whom the tithe is to be given, when, and where it is to be observed has already been written in God's Word.

He said His holy tithe is agriculrural, not monetary. (Lev. 27:30-33) He said it is for the physical descendants of Levi, not for Gentiles on Gentile soil. (Lev. 27:34; Num. 18:24-26; Neh. 10:37-38; Deut. 6:1-3 & 12:1,10-11)

God's Word says that sin is the transgression of the Law. (1 John 3:4) To say that God requires monetary tithes is false, since God's Word says His holy tithe is to be agricultural. To say that God's holy tithe is to be taken to Gentile pastors on Gentile soil is also false, since God said His holy tithes are to go to Levites in farming communities in Canaan.

When those who believe that God's Word commands them to tithe tithe money, (instead of agricultural crops and livestock) and they tithe on Gentile soil, (instead of farming communities in Canaan), and they tithe to a Gentile pastor, (instead of to a Levite) they transgress the very Law they claim to be keeping.

Yes, to tithe money in response to Leviticus 27:30, Malachi 3:10, Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 or Hebrews 7:5-9; or in response to any other Biblical command to tithe is,... in fact,... sin..

 

1 Corinthians 9 was not speaking of tithes at all.  Paul was speaking of support for the Apostles in their missions. The tithe belonged to Israel, not to the Church.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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59 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The context of Mark 12:38-44 shows that the widow was being robbed.  

 

Your statement is not correct and is a private interpretation. Mark 12:38-40 is a different situation and has no bearing on the story of the widows mite in Mark 12:41-44

She was not robbed in any sense of the word. The Lord Jesus plainly stated, "... Verily I say unto you, that his poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury. for all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

The Lord Jesus did not reference any of His words in reference to the Pharisees, nor did He even reference His words to the Law; He clearly stated that the widow gave "out of her want." The widow "wanted' to give. The widow gave because she had a happy and generous heart of love. The attitude of the Pharisees were not even considered in her mind and heart nor in the mind and heart of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus did not say, or even allude to, and 'robbing the widow.' Your interpretation is a mis-representation, and judgment, of the widow, and a perverting of the words of the Lord Jesus.

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Actually, it is you who is incorrect.

 

scenario:

Jesus warns of widows being robbed by the scribes.

He then goes and sits across from the treasury.

For what purpose?

Because He knew the widow was on her way, bringing all her living.

There was no commendation in the account, only a warning against the scribes.

 

"Out of her want" does not mean she wanted to give.  It means she was lacking, yet gave anyway.  Why did she give anyway?  Because she was being forced to give.  She was being robbed.

Want:Transliteration: hysterēsis
Pronunciation: hü-ste'-rā-sēs 
Part of Speech: feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology): from G5302
Outline of Biblical Usage:
want, poverty

 

"out of her want" is not speaking of a desire to give at all.  Look up the root of the Greek for want in Mark 12:44.  It clearly shows she was giving out of her lack.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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13 minutes ago, Alan said:

Your statement is not correct and is a private interpretation. Mark 12:38-40 is a different situation and has no bearing on the story of the widows mite in Mark 12:41-44

She was not robbed in any sense of the word. The Lord Jesus plainly stated, "... Verily I say unto you, that his poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury. for all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

The Lord Jesus did not reference any of His words in reference to the Pharisees, nor did He even reference His words to the Law; He clearly stated that the widow gave "out of her want." The widow "wanted' to give. The widow gave because she had a happy and generous heart of love. The attitude of the Pharisees were not even considered in her mind and heart nor in the mind and heart of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus did not say, or even allude to, and 'robbing the widow.' Your interpretation is a mis-representation, and judgment, of the widow, and a perverting of the words of the Lord Jesus.

I think that is rather a forced interpretation SFIC. While I agree with you generally, I don't think you are correct regarding the widow,

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28 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Actually, it is you who is incorrect.

 

scenario:

Jesus warns of widows being robbed by the scribes.

He then goes snd sits across from the treasury.

For what purpose?

Because He knew the widow was on her way, bringing all her living.

There was no commendation in the account, only a warning against the scribes.

 

"Out of her want" does not mean she wanted to give.  It means she was lacking, yet gave anyway.  Why did she give anyway?  Because she was being forced to give.  She was being robbed.

Want:Transliteration: hysterēsis
Pronunciation: hü-ste'-rā-sēs 
Part of Speech: feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology): from G5302
Outline of Biblical Usage:
want, poverty

 

"out of her want" is not speaking of a desire to give at all.  Look up the root of the Greek for want in Mark 12:44.  It clearly shows she was giving out of her lack.

SFIC,

Obviously she was in 'want' or in poverty, that is not the question nor the attitude of her heart. The word 'want' has many meanings, and you neglected to give all of them. You only gave the meaning that you wanted to give and neglected to give, or even say, that there could be another meaning.

May I quote a meaning of the word 'want' from the 1848 Webster's Dictionary? "WANT" 6. to wish for; to desire." the heart motive of this widow was a desire to give to the Lord. she was not even concerned what the Pharisees taught or thought of her actions.

The widow 'wanted' to give her all to the temple. Again, may I quote the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus  very clearly said, "... Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." Mark 12:43 and 44

The widow was a poor widow, she wanted to give to the Lord, to the Temple, to the work of God, out of a heart of love and devotion. Your interpretation is not correct and a perversion of the words of the Lord Jesus. The widow gave joyously and lovingly. Her rewards in heaven are great.

 

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I'm sorry, Alan. I have to agree with "Standing Firm" on the usage of the word "want". I know we aren't supposed to bring the Greek into it, but it denotes "neediness/poverty".   I do believe she desired (out of the goodness of her heart) to please the Lord, and she did desire to give something, just not everything.  Sorry if I have muddied the waters further, I just do agree with the "want" pertaining to her financial status/neediness.

 

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13 minutes ago, Alan said:

SFIC,

Obviously she was in 'want' or in poverty, that is not the question nor the attitude of her heart. The word 'want' has many meanings, and you neglected to give all of them. You only gave the meaning that you wanted to give and neglected to give, or even say, that there could be another meaning.

May I quote a meaning of the word 'want' from the 1848 Webster's Dictionary? "WANT" 6. to wish for; to desire." the heart motive of this widow was a desire to give to the Lord. she was not even concerned what the Pharisees taught or thought of her actions.

The widow 'wanted' to give her all to the temple. Again, may I quote the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus  very clearly said, "... Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." Mark 12:43 and 44

The widow was a poor widow, she wanted to give to the Lord, to the Temple, to the work of God, out of a heart of love and devotion. Your interpretation is not correct and a perversion of the words of the Lord Jesus. The widow gave joyously and lovingly. Her rewards in heaven are great.

 

You interpret the word "want" from a secular dictionary.

 

I look to the Greek for the interpretation.  The Greek for want carried far less definitions than the secular.

 

Had Jesus meant, "desire" or "wish for," the Greek would have been "aiteo".  He instead used "hysteresis," which speaks of poverty, not desire.

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I have already said that the word want is meaning poverty; I also said that the other meaning is to desire.

And, even though if you want to only force that one meaning the words of the Lord Jesus is very clear. The poor widow was not robbed in any sense of the word and you are trying to twist the very words of the Lord Jesus to prove a saint is being robbed when they tithe.

22 minutes ago, Alan said:

Again, may I quote the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus  very clearly said, "... Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." Mark 12:43 and 44

The widow was a poor widow, she wanted to give to the Lord, to the Temple, to the work of God, out of a heart of love and devotion. Your interpretation is not correct and a perversion of the words of the Lord Jesus. The widow gave joyously and lovingly. Her rewards in heaven are great.

Are we to take the words of SFIC above the very words of the Lord Jesus?

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The very words of Jesus also stated in Mark 12:40 " 40 Which devour widows' houses ...." I see the words tying into the next sentences as well... so "Standing Firm" has brought out those words of Jesus also... in context of the verses together. So no, I am not taking mankinds words above the Lord Jesus... I am fully taking ALL that Jesus has to say about it, not just limited to verse 43 and 44.

 

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The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:38-40, is talking about the hearts motives of the relgious leaders of His age.

The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:43 and 44 is talking about the heart motive of the poor widow and her reason for giving.

On ‎2015‎年‎10‎月‎17‎日‎ ‎下午‎, robmac68 said:

Seriously??  If such were the case as you pointed out, we would not need the comparison that the "rich cast in much."  Many that were rich does not specify they were all lawmakers and scribes.  Rich were casting in a lot from their abundance but she cast in more.  If Jesus was pointing out they were robbing this poor widow, He would have just pointed out she gave all she had, now she has nothing.  He then goes on to point out she gave more than "all" that gave.  This was everyone giving, not just scribes and lawmakers.  He is pointing out her 100% and "all they" gave less than 100%.  This was not needed to be done if just pointing out that the scribes and lawmakers were thieves. 

And personally I don't see a widow being robbed.  Malachi 3:10&11 applies to her so she is being taken care of. 

robma68 is correct.

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Alan, I do not want to argue and cause strife... I really don't.  But I have to tell you that I see a reason for Jesus talking about the heart motives of the religious leaders JUST PRIOR to talking about the widow and her mites. Specifically he mentioned widows in verse 40 and I do not think it coincidental that a widow is to whom he is showing the example of in verses 42-44.  I can see we differ in thought on that.  I see the tie-in, you don't think it's relevant to what Jesus was saying in the next verses... so I will just agree to disagree with you (hopefully without hard feelings). I had to defend this point because you stated I was taking the word of fellow-mankind above the Lord Jesus and I wanted to explain to you why that's not the case.  Jesus' words do mean more to me than any mere human...   

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:38-40, is talking about the hearts motives of the relgious leaders of His age.

The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:43 and 44 is talking about the heart motive of the poor widow and her reason for giving.

 

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Let's quote the account of the Widow's Mite from Luke's gospel:

Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
Luke 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Luke 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Luke 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury (husteresis) hath cast in all the living that she had.

The word "penury" in verse 4 of Chapter 21 is the same Greek word as the word "want" in Mark 12:44--husteresis

Strong's Greek Dictionary

5304. υστερησις husteresis

υστερησις husteresis hoos-ter'-ay-sis

a falling short, i.e. (specially), penury:—want.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]

penury

PEN'URY, n. L. penuria, from Gr. needy.

Want of property; indigence; extreme poverty.

All innocent they were exposed to hardship and penury.

******************************************

The word "want" (husteresis) is also found in Philippians 4:11:
Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want (husteresis): for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Therefore, the word "want" in Mark 12:44 does not mean "desire"....nor is there any indication in the text that the widow had a desire to give.

BTW, the poor widow was not "tithing"....she was giving.  The Biblical tithe was never money.

Edited by LindaR
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20 minutes ago, Alan said:

The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:38-40, is talking about the hearts motives of the relgious leaders of His age.

The Lord Jesus, in Mark 12:43 and 44 is talking about the heart motive of the poor widow and her reason for giving.

Does not a person from the heart have a desire to give?

"Keep thy heart with all dilgence; for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4;23

Did not the Lord Jesus judge the religious leaders in Mark 12:38-40 according to the desire of their hearts?

And, did not the Lord Jesus commend the widow in Mark 12:43 and 44 according to the desire of her heart?

Does not God, as the Lord Jesus, look upon the desires of the heart and makes a judgment? "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

The Lord Jesus saw the desires of the heart of the poor, desitute, and poverty stricken widow and told us, and the whole world, she gave out of a heart of love.

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