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Salyan

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 Steve, my Bible does say, "Buy the truth and sell it not".  To me, that means not to compromise my convictions.

The only Church in our area that preaches from the KJV just happens to be the only IFB Church in our area,... which has told us we are not welcome there unless we repent of teaching this truth.  As I said before, I will not repent of preaching truth,... as many here on OB should know by now.

I still get fed, despite not being in a brick and mortar building with fifty or more people.  If I could return without compromising my convictions, I would be back amongst them.  But their stand is that I cannot speak this truth; not just in the Church, but also not on the street, nor on my Facebook page, nor on my blog.  

When church leadership denies its members the freedom to speak or walk in truth, telling them to "keep a lid on it," they cease to be a Church.  They have, at that point, moved into a cult mentality.

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Well, technically in the specific post, no, but I guess the overall content points to that, so I withdraw my question.

But I guess one of my points would be, what points are worthy of living and dying for? I understand the issue you generally speak of, and as you note, I agree with you. However, depending on the way it is taught and pushed, ie, do they act like it is a LAW and MUST be fulfilled in a very legalistic manner, I am surely against that, like coming to your house to collect, or calling you out in service if you haven't done 'your duty', but honestly I have not, myself been to one of those, and generally haven't found it worth fighting over, if all else is well. But you need to do as you believe right. I just pray you CAN get into a good fellowship, because I believe one misses so much when out. My dad, who was a chaplain, involved for many years in good ministries, got hurt and got out, and the longer he was out, the more his doctrines began to skew into some weird areas. I believe a good fellowship is extremely important to the spiritual health of a child of God. Seen it too often, godly men getting out, for whatever reasons, and over time going into weird areas doctrinally.

Yes, they do teach it as Law.  They teach it must be done or one is a thief and is cursed by God.

Funny thing though, the pastor who was teaching it at the time we were told not to come back said it would keep you out of the hospital, protect your finances, etc..  Yet, his wife developed a brain tumor, had to have surgery, deteriorated for the next six years and eventually died.  Must not have been doing it himself, or it proves he was wrong all along.

Yes, I know many are the afflictions of the righteous, something he never preached in the seven years I was in membership there.  But the point is, he taught that this certain thing would keep the very things from happening that were happening in his own family.

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For the record, just so others don't think I am not doing something.  I have invited many in my community to participate in a study of the Word of God.  I witness to neighbors whenever am out and about in our community as well.

Don't get me wrong.  I do yearn the fellowship that I once experienced.  But it is just not plausible at this juncture in time.  Let me ask those who know my stance and disagree with me,...
Would you consider me as a possible member of your congregation, knowing my stance?  Knowing my zeal for truth on the street and on the internet?  or would you insist that I "keep a lid on it" if I wanted to be a member of your congregation?
Quite sure most would not want me to be in their congregation unles I agreed to be silent.  So, that takes me back to my original post in this particular thread...

It would be wrong for anyone to say I am wrong for not being in fellowship with other Believers in a local brick and mortar building if they themselves would not want me as a member of their congregation unless I was willing to compromise truth.
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Methinks thou dost protest too much...  I have the feeling, SFIC, that you were a trouble-maker in that church who was not willing to be under your pastor's authority. If so, regardless of your reason for doing so, you were in the wrong, and no amount of excuses (or rephrasing the issue to make yourself sound better) will make it right. And no, we are not wrong to remind people what the Bible clearly says (in much clearer terms than the ambiguity concerning giving) about joining together with other believers in a church - not merely a Bible study. 

Man, am I in a frank mood tonight! Maybe it's time to get some sleep. 

-------

Edited to add: Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair. I have formed an opinion based on many references,  but have never asked what actually happened. So, SFIC, I'm asking now. Did your last pastor ask you to stop teaching against the tithe in your last church, and did you honor that request?

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You are incorrect, Salyan.  I was never a troublemaker in the Church.  We agreed on every subject but the one.  And my views on that subject were always expressed miles away from the Church.

 

I was asked to minister in the Church many times through the seven years I was a member.  Preached on many topics, yet not once did I minister there on the topic of tithing.

 

edited to add:  No, the pastor never told me to stop teaching the truth about tithing the entire time I was a member.  It was in the email I received that they said I should stop teaching and repent.  The email was sent two days after my excommunication from that assembly.    As I said previously I cannot, and will not repent of teaching what the Bible says concerning the subject.

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Here is the link to the email we received AFTER we were voted out of the church fellowship via a secret meeting....it was secret due to the fact that we, as members of that fellowship for almost 7 years, were not informed of the meeting and we had NO "say so" in our defense.  Even criminals on trial fare better than we did.

"The Much Requested E-mail"

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Sorry to hear this has happened Linda and SFIC. What I find interesting about their letter and your accompanying comments on the blog post is that you reject various allegations about your conduct and complain that you weren't given a hearing at the meeting. Yet you also say that if you had been allowed to attend the meeting, you would have gone not to address the allegations of misconduct but instead to debate the church over their position on tithing:

Had we been informed, we would have attended and presented Scripture that proves our stance.

And when you did reply to their letter, you chose to focus on the issue of tithing itself, rather than whether you and the church could agree to disagree on it:

We replied to the email with our defense, giving every Scripture that had to do with tithing.  Keith Kendall, the man who sent us the excommunication email, rejected those Scriptures, writing back his argument which basically put the New Testament Church in ancient Israel and under the Mosaic Law of tithing.  Funny thing, he had no valid explanation as to when God gave permission for anyone to take a tithe of money to a fellowship of Gentile Believers.

So after all it does sound like you weren't prepared to remain at the church unless they changed their understanding of tithing to match yours.

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First off, there was no "misconduct" on our behalf.  My teaching was never in the Church building, nor on the Church property.  And it was always miles away from the Church, or on the world wide web.  I thought I had made that clear in a previous post?

Second, had we been informed of the meeting, we would have gone and defended out teaching using the Word of God as our support.  Call it debate if you will, we call it defense. 

Agree to disagree?  I find no support for such in the Word of God.  One is either in agreement, or not.  Yes, our focus would have been on the issue of what the Scripture says.  Why wouldn't it be?  Are we to compromise the truth and walk in a lie? 

Actually, the beginning paragraph of the email we received clearly acknowledged that we had written them and told them our intentions to return to the Church.    By the way, we had written the email to them informing them that we would be back PRIOR to their scheduling of their secret meeting.

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First off, there was no "misconduct" on our behalf.  My teaching was never in the Church building, nor on the Church property.  And it was always miles away from the Church, or on the world wide web.  I thought I had made that clear in a previous post?

I didn't say there had been any misconduct at all, I just referred to the letter's allegations of misconduct since that's what the letter was about--and I was careful to call them that both times I mentioned them. I didn't say you did or didn't do a thing (how would I know?) so you making it clear in a previous post that the allegations are untrue isn't relevant to my comments.

Second, had we been informed of the meeting, we would have gone and defended out teaching using the Word of God as our support.  Call it debate if you will, we call it defense.

Exactly my point. The letter and the meeting weren't about whose stance on tithing was correct--that you and they thought the other was wrong was already a given. The meeting and letter were about whether you had been openly putting down the church's position, the broad question being whether you could be part of the church despite disagreeing with them on tithing. Yet had you been allowed to attend the meeting,  you say you would have used it to reopen the debate between you and them about tithing itself, i.e. defending your position and rejecting theirs. Ok, so what if you had defended your view on tithing and the other people in the room had said "we still disagree"? You've just said that agreeing to disagree is out of the question for you, so what option would you have had left?


Agree to disagree?  I find no support for such in the Word of God.  One is either in agreement, or not.  Yes, our focus would have been on the issue of what the Scripture says.  Why wouldn't it be?  Are we to compromise the truth and walk in a lie? 



Actually, the beginning paragraph of the email we received clearly acknowledged that we had written them and told them our intentions to return to the Church.    By the way, we had written the email to them informing them that we would be back PRIOR to their scheduling of their secret meeting.

Well, the phrase "agree to disagree", in my part of the world at least, means that the parties mutually understand that they can live together with that point of contention; it isn't a 'deal breaker' to their associating in other regards. It doesn't mean one accepts the view of the other--quite the opposite. So the reason your focus "wouldn't be" on who's correct about tithing (in our hypothetical scenario where you are attending the meeting) would be if you wanted to settle the question of whether you could be part of the church despite disagreement in that area. But it sounds like you weren't at all interested in that question. Ok, so you told them you were coming back--that doesn't mean anything by itself.

 

 

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Brother SFIC,

Clearly you and apparently your wife have been hurt by the actions of this church. Furthermore, you both appear to believe you are completely innocent of all wrong doing. I have misgivings if this forum is the place to resolve this issue. Not that any one of the posters are unwilling individually (or in private) to talk it through, but that this medium (a public forum) does not seem to be the best place for it (Matthew 18:16ff; Romans 16:17-19; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; Ephesians 4:29; Titus 3:1-8; 1 Peter 2:1, 11-12; etc.).

The Bible is clear on the matter of Christ's church being a priority to us. You have expressed mixed responses (willingness, but a sense of hopelessness) to re-connecting with a church. In my estimation, we have established enough Biblical data on the priority of church, but if not more could be said. Your situation is not an exception to the truths of Scripture. It may be that you situation makes it exceptionally difficult to practice the truths of Scripture, but it does not negate them. Exceptionally difficult situations require faith in an exceptionally powerful, holy, righteous, and good God. Our earlier statements about the church are rooted in this God's revelation. We who are believers have already seen Him accomplish the most exceptionally difficult thing in rescuing our depraved souls from His righteous wrath through the blood of His dear Son. Surely we can trust in His timing that he will provide both the personal growth and change that he is working in you through this trial and a good church for you to fellowship.

For His glory,

Christian Markle

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I didn't say there had been any misconduct at all, I just referred to the letter's allegations of misconduct since that's what the letter was about--and I was careful to call them that both times I mentioned them. I didn't say you did or didn't do a thing (how would I know?) so you making it clear in a previous post that the allegations are untrue isn't relevant to my comments.

Exactly my point. The letter and the meeting weren't about whose stance on tithing was correct--that you and they thought the other was wrong was already a given. The meeting and letter were about whether you had been openly putting down the church's position, the broad question being whether you could be part of the church despite disagreeing with them on tithing. Yet had you been allowed to attend the meeting,  you say you would have used it to reopen the debate between you and them about tithing itself, i.e. defending your position and rejecting theirs. Ok, so what if you had defended your view on tithing and the other people in the room had said "we still disagree"? You've just said that agreeing to disagree is out of the question for you, so what option would you have had left?

Well, the phrase "agree to disagree", in my part of the world at least, means that the parties mutually understand that they can live together with that point of contention; it isn't a 'deal breaker' to their associating in other regards. It doesn't mean one accepts the view of the other--quite the opposite. So the reason your focus "wouldn't be" on who's correct about tithing (in our hypothetical scenario where you are attending the meeting) would be if you wanted to settle the question of whether you could be part of the church despite disagreement in that area. But it sounds like you weren't at all interested in that question. Ok, so you told them you were coming back--that doesn't mean anything by itself.

 

 

Obviously, as the letter clearly shows, there was no option to mutually understand that we could live together.  They wanted us gone.   Remember, I had been a member of the Church for seven years, so obviously I was associating with them despite the clash in that particular doctrine.

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Brother SFIC,

Clearly you and apparently your wife have been hurt by the actions of this church. Furthermore, you both appear to believe you are completely innocent of all wrong doing. I have misgivings if this forum is the place to resolve this issue. Not that any one of the posters are unwilling individually (or in private) to talk it through, but that this medium (a public forum) does not seem to be the best place for it (Matthew 18:16ff; Romans 16:17-19; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; Ephesians 4:29; Titus 3:1-8; 1 Peter 2:1, 11-12; etc.).

The Bible is clear on the matter of Christ's church being a priority to us. You have expressed mixed responses (willingness, but a sense of hopelessness) to re-connecting with a church. In my estimation, we have established enough Biblical data on the priority of church, but if not more could be said. Your situation is not an exception to the truths of Scripture. It may be that you situation makes it exceptionally difficult to practice the truths of Scripture, but it does not negate them. Exceptionally difficult situations require faith in an exceptionally powerful, holy, righteous, and good God. Our earlier statements about the church are rooted in this God's revelation. We who are believers have already seen Him accomplish the most exceptionally difficult thing in rescuing our depraved souls from His righteous wrath through the blood of His dear Son. Surely we can trust in His timing that he will provide both the personal growth and change that he is working in you through this trial and a good church for you to fellowship.

For His glory,

Christian Markle

Regardless whether I am in that asembly or not, I am a member of Christ's Body, the Ekklesia; the Body in which every joint supplieth.  They don't want my ministry, that much is obvious.  And, at this point, if they would rather walk in, and teach false doctrine, I really don't need theirs as well. 

I will remain IFB, as the fundamentals of the Faith are embraced by the IFB more than any other Baptist Church or Protestant Church out there today, to the best of my knowledge.  I will continue in my studies until such time that the Lord either opens doors for me to start another Church, (I have pastored two in the past) or He convicts the only IFB assembly in town of their error, or until HIs return for His Bride.

Tell me, Christian, if I were able to travel, and came to your town, knowing my stance on the Biblical tithe, would you want me as a member of your congregation?

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Regardless whether I am in that asembly or not, I am a member of Christ's Body, the Ekklesia; the Body in which every joint supplieth.  They don't want my ministry, that much is obvious.  And, at this point, if they would rather walk in, and teach false doctrine, I really don't need theirs as well. 
I will remain IFB, as the fundamentals of the Faith are embraced by the IFB more than any other Baptist Church or Protestant Church out there today, to the best of my knowledge.  I will continue in my studies until such time that the Lord either opens doors for me to start another Church, (I have pastored two in the past) or He convicts the only IFB assembly in town of their error, or until HIs return for His Bride.

Tell me, Christian, if I were able to travel, and came to your town, knowing my stance on the Biblical tithe, would you want me as a member of your congregation?

I am a member of a church where I disagree with their stand on tithe, but believe in giving from your heart, but do not make it a matter of contention. The general qualifications of the church I am a part of is being saved and scripturally baptized.

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Tell me, Christian, if I were able to travel, and came to your town, knowing my stance on the Biblical tithe, would you want me as a member of your congregation?

My views of tithing appear to be closer to yours than your previous church. My problem would not then be of your view of tithing. I perceive that we might find conflict elsewhere though...seems to be a human thing :-) How we would deal with it would either demonstrate our love for God, His truth on conflict resolution, and the Gospel or not!

For His glory,

Christian Markle

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My views of tithing appear to be closer to yours than your previous church. My problem would not then be of your view of tithing. I perceive that we might find conflict elsewhere though...seems to be a human thing :-) How we would deal with it would either demonstrate our love for God, His truth on conflict resolution, and the Gospel or not!

For His glory,

Christian Markle

not too sure we would disagree on other things or not.  It appears you, at least would be willing to reason together, and be diligent in searching the Scriptures to see if it is so.  Much unlike most who disagree with me.

 

to display some modicum of willingness to see what the Scriptures say reveals the heart indeed has a love for God.

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According to Jesus the tithe was for the religious lost (pharisees). He commended the widow who gave all she had. The tithe has nothing to do with us at all; we should be giving far more, our all in fact. (I typed this while my flesh was asleep so keep it down please)

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According to Jesus the tithe was for the religious lost (pharisees). He commended the widow who gave all she had. The tithe has nothing to do with us at all; we should be giving far more, our all in fact. (I typed this while my flesh was asleep so keep it down please)

I am not so sure that Jesus was commending the widow of Mark 12.  If one reads the text in context, (beginning at verse 39) one will see Jesus was warning of religious leaders who, "rob widow's houses".  Then, He sits against a wall across from the Treasury.  Lo and behold, a widow comes and drops all her living into the Treasury. 

What I see in that text is Jesus pointing out a widow has just been robbed, not that He was commending her.

But that is another topic for another thread, I guess.  LoL

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