Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.

[Invicta]

On 05/12/2015, 04:25:47, Genevanpreacher said:

Could it be possible that, in the verse that says "upon this rock I will build my church", that the phrase "build my church" might just engage the thoughtline that the church existed before it was 'founded' upon the truth that Peter stated "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" and the church that was built would then be built upon that foundation?

He didn't say 'create my church'.

The church is made up of believers in Jesus Christ, who is, was, and ever shall be, the God of the Bible in the OT and NT, albeit he was in different forms between the two.

Hence one who believed in God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength in the OT, is just as saved as the one who believes in Jesus Christ with all his heart in the NT.

 

Mt 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This shows the church was in existence before Pentecost.

I would say that Hebrews 11 shows that OT believers are part of the church, but of course some will disagree,

 

[wretched]

15 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Bro. Scott,

My point on those verses are that the church IS made up of believers, whether NT or OT, and as such the church DID exist before the NT, since anyone putting their faith in the Lord is saved, and the church is made up OF the saved, I say yes the church DID exist before the NT.

There are witnesses to that in the verses referenced in the comparison of the OT about faith and believing in the Lord as righteousness, which IS salvation.

So in my opinion, the church as believers existed, they were just waiting for the real sacrifice to base that faith upon, since the law was our school master to bring us to that faith.

Would you consider just a moment that you are supposing? Just as Invicta was called out recently on the Calvinistic supposition that all men are dead spiritually and because of this dead men can't choose. The same applies here, there is no mention anywhere in the Word of the church being in the OT.

This supposition is the basis of covenant/replacement theology.

It seems that neither you nor Invicta are willing to let go of these suppositions and until you do, this argument will never end. Once a supposition is implanted in the brain, Scripture can be made to say anything a man wants. Let these suppositions go and I promise you will see things clearly as God intended.

[Invicta]

Bro Scott and others,

I have been reading a lot on line the last couple of days about dispensationalist teaching to see if I missed anything when I was in the Brethren as to why OT saints were not part of Christ's spiritual kingdom..

I came across this quote from Scofield and the following comment.

Quote from Scofield

‘As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ….The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation’4

Comment

Scofield here states that salvific grace is a New Testament phenomenon, unavailable in previous dispensations. Notice that Scofield explains that legal obedience was the condition of salvation in the previous dispensation, but that now faith in Christ is the condition that must be met. This is consistent with Scofield’s definition of a dispensation.

I seem to have lost the option to add quotes since yesterday.

Do you agree with Scofield here?

Edited December 6, 2015 by Invicta

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Bro Scott and others,

I have been reading a lot on line the last couple of days about dispensationalist teaching to see if I missed anything when I was in the Brethren as to why OT saints were not part of Christ's spiritual kingdom..

I came across this quote from Scofield and the following comment.

Quote from Scofield

‘As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ….The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation’4

Comment

Scofield here states that salvific grace is a New Testament phenomenon, unavailable in previous dispensations. Notice that Scofield explains that legal obedience was the condition of salvation in the previous dispensation, but that now faith in Christ is the condition that must be met. This is consistent with Scofield’s definition of a dispensation.

I seem to have lost the option to add quotes since yesterday.

Do you agree with Scofield here?

Brother David,

I do have some comments that I would like to make concerning some previous postings.  However, I wanted to get this "out there" more quickly, if I may.

Do I agree with Scofield's comment above?  If this is an accurate presentation of Scofield's position, then my answer is -- No! Absolutely not!!!  Indeed, I would contend that herein (as in other areas) Scofield got it WAY WRONG!!!

[Genevanpreacher]

5 hours ago, wretched said:

Would you consider just a moment that you are supposing? Just as Invicta was called out recently on the Calvinistic supposition that all men are dead spiritually and because of this dead men can't choose. The same applies here, there is no mention anywhere in the Word of the church being in the OT.

This supposition is the basis of covenant/replacement theology.

It seems that neither you nor Invicta are willing to let go of these suppositions and until you do, this argument will never end. Once a supposition is implanted in the brain, Scripture can be made to say anything a man wants. Let these suppositions go and I promise you will see things clearly as God intended.

I appreciate your encouragement Wretched.

I was not 'supposing', but gently asking if it were possible.

But, like Bro. Scott and others, I live by my own convictions about the word of God, and what it teaches and says.

So, no, I will not let go of my, [what you refer to as], 'suppositions'.

By the way, I think your last paragraph can be applied to the opposite view also.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Invicta]

John 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Invicta

[Genevanpreacher]

Ephesians 2 -

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[No Nicolaitans]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Ephesians 2 -

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

That's referring to Jews and Gentiles...the "prophets" are the prophets of the New Testament...not the Old Testament prophets.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Genevanpreacher]

4 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

That's referring to Jews and Gentiles...the "prophets" are the prophets of the New Testament...not the Old Testament prophets.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

So I was reaching a bit?

[Critical Mass]

The "prophets" could be the OT prophets too (Romans 1:1,2) since the scripture that Paul and the apostles were preaching and revealing much NT revelation from would have been the OT. The OT prophets did not understand the salvation that was to come though (Romans 16:25,26; I Peter 1:10.11) and the gospel was hid from them.

This doesn't mean the OT prophets were part of the church but their prophecies are part of the foundation of the church.

As far as the "church in the wilderness" this would have been a case of applying a term retroactively. You see the same thing in Hebrews 2:12 where Psalm 22:22 is quoted and the word "congregation" is replaced with the word "church". 

[Invicta]

19 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

The "prophets" could be the OT prophets too (Romans 1:1,2) since the scripture that Paul and the apostles were preaching and revealing much NT revelation from would have been the OT. The OT prophets did not understand the salvation that was to come though (Romans 16:25,26; I Peter 1:10.11) and the gospel was hid from them.

This doesn't mean the OT prophets were part of the church but their prophecies are part of the foundation of the church.

As far as the "church in the wilderness" this would have been a case of applying a term retroactively. You see the same thing in Hebrews 2:12 where Psalm 22:22 is quoted and the word "congregation" is replaced with the word "church". 

Good try.

The Church was not a gentile organization.  It was Hebrew. The non believing Hebrews departed from the faith,  The believers were continuing in the Hebrew faith and therefore heirs of the covenants..  When the gentiles believed in Christ, they were in exactly the same position as gentile believers in the old testament, such as Rahab the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite.  

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎16‎:‎41‎, Genevanpreacher said:

So what you are saying is you want details that cannot be supported the way you want to see them. So why ask?

No sir.  Not at all.  Rather, what I am seeking are Biblical details concerning a church that is specifically referenced and defined in Scripture, that is -- the church of the First Born, the Lord Jesus Christ, the church that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself called His church, the church of which our Lord Jesus Christ is the Head, the church that serves as our Lord Jesus Christ's spiritual body, the church that our Lord Jesus Christ founded upon Himself (as the Chief Cornerstone) and His New Testament apostles and prophets, the church which our Lord Jesus Christ created as a new spiritual entity (as "one new man") through His crucifixion and resurrection.  And the reason that I ask this specifically is because there is definitely a body of Biblical doctrine concerning this specific church.

Even so, I am NOT asking about any of the other church entities that might be referenced in Scripture, which are not the same as the church of the First Born, our Lord Jesus Christ.  I am not asking about the congregation (Hebrew - "qahal"), or church (Greek - "ekklesia"), of Israel in the wilderness (unless it can be specifically demonstrated from Scripture that this church entity is the same as the church of the First Born, our Lord Jesus Christ), about the congregation (Hebrew - "qahal") of evil doers (see Psalm 26:5), or about the assembly (Greek - "ekklesia") of the citizens of Ephesus (see Acts 19:32, 39, 41).

 

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎16‎:‎41‎, Genevanpreacher said:

A church is made up of believers. There were believers in the OT. That makes them a church or congregation. Why does it matter when it was? It was.

Except that the body of Biblical doctrine concerning the church of the First Born, our Lord Jesus Christ, is more specific than simply that it is "made up of believers."  That body of Biblical doctrine also teaches us that this church is the spiritual body of Christ, that Christ is it s spiritual Head, that Christ created it as a new spiritual entity through His crucifixion, and that He founded it upon Himself and His New Testament apostles and prophets.  Why does it matter?  It matters because we are to study and follow the whole counsel of God's Holy Word; and it matters because it impacts how we understand and apply various truths, precepts, promises, and warnings of God's Holy Word. 

 

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎16‎:‎41‎, Genevanpreacher said:

Ever look up where that refers to in the OT? They were gathered together to hear the word from God. They heard God's word preached. Their hearts were turned to the Lord. They even met with God.

Sounds like church.

Exodus 19 by the way.

Yes sir, I have looked up "where that refers to in the Old Testament.  I am quite well aware that it refers to the congregation of Israel at Mount Sinai.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2015‎ ‎3‎:‎46‎:‎15‎, Invicta said:

Mt 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This shows the church was in existence before Pentecost.

I would say that Hebrews 11 shows that OT believers are part of the church, but of course some will disagree,

1.  Concerning Matthew 18:17.

Indeed, I would be in full agreement that Matthew 18:17 reveals that the church was in embryonic formulation and existence prior to the event of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  In fact, the event of Matthew 16:18 occurred prior to the event of Matthew 18:17.

2.  Concerning Hebrews 11.

Throughout all 40 verses of Hebrews 11, the church is NOT specifically referenced at all, no, not even one time.  Certainly, Hebrews 11 can provide Biblical evidence that the Old Testament believers were genuine believers before the Lord God.  Yet since it does not even reference the church, how can Hebrews 11 provide Biblical evidence that Old Testament believers were a part of THE CHURCH?  In fact, Hebrews 11 concludes with verses 39-40 as follows:  "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."  So then, the Lord God has provided "some better thing" for us New Testament believers, that the Old Testament believers did not have the privilege to experience.  So then, what is this "some better thing"?  Considering the whole context of the epistle to the Hebrews, I would contend that it is our entrance and experience into benefits of the New Testament (Covenant).  Which raises the question -- Is the church a specific element of the New Testament (Covenant)?  For if it is, then it is a part of the "some better thing" for us New Testament believers in which the Old Testament believers were not a part.

3.  Concerning Hebrews 12:22-24.

On the other hand, allow me to present a passage from the epistle to the Hebrews that DOES specifically reference the church of the Firstborn, our Lord Jesus Christ -- Hebrews 12:22-24.  This passage states: 

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

According to this passage, we New Testament believers have spiritually come unto a number of elements.  In the first place, we have come unto a place -- "the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."  In the second place, we have come unto a series of groups or individuals -- (1) "an innumerable company of angels," (2) "the general assembly and church of the firstborn," (3) "God the Judge of all," (4) "the spirits of just men made perfect," (5) "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant."  In the third and final place, we have come unto an element of sanctification -- "the blood of sprinkling." 

Even so, I would direct our attention to the two groups of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" and "the spirits of just men made perfect."  Herein we notice that these two groups are presented as two different groups, being separated in the listing by the listing of "God the Judge of all."  So then, who are these two different groups?  Is seems clear that they are both groupings of human believers.  Clearly, the group of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" is made up of human believers that ARE a part of the church.  Yet what human believers make up the group of "the spirits of just men made perfect"?  If Old Testament believers are a part of the church as you are claiming, then I cannot think of any other group of human believers that could make up this group.  However, if Old Testament believers are NOT a part of the church as I am claiming, then those who make up this group seems quite easy - the Old Testament believers.  As such, I would contend that this passage reveals that Old Testament believers and New Testament believers are viewed by the Lord our God as two different groupings of believers --

1.  New Testament believers -- "the general assembly and church of the firstborn"
2.  Old Testament believers -- "the spirits of just men made perfect"

Furthermore, I would contend that this passage reveals that Old Testament believers, being a different grouping of believers than New Testament believers, are NOT a part of the New Testament church, since they are not included under description of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn."

[Genevanpreacher]

29 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

So, as I hold my last piece of pizza in my hand, tell me Scott, where are the OT believers now? And where are the NT believers that are dead?

[Genevanpreacher]

On 12/6/2015, 5:26:30, Invicta said:

John 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

I love this one David, really shows the combination of Israelites and Gentiles that have turned to the Lord, from the NT and OT.

I am sure that we don't really understand that verse right either.