Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.

[Genevanpreacher]

A believer is a believer is a believer... no matter before or after the cross.

The same God in the OT and the NT - and are still made up of three persons - and still saves when belief of the heart is inside a person.

[Invicta]

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

We come to Christ looking back, the OT believers came to Christ by looking forward,
 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

A believer is a believer is a believer... no matter before or after the cross.

The same God in the OT and the NT - and are still made up of three persons - and still saves when belief of the heart is inside a person.

 

22 minutes ago, Invicta said:

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

We come to Christ looking back, the OT believers came to Christ by looking forward,
 

Certainly, both of these declarations are Biblically true.  However, these truths are NOT the point that would be under question.  Rather, the point that would be under question is whether or not the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, which He promised to engage in building, existed prior to the time (dispensation) of the New Testament, that is -- in the time (dispensation) of the Old Testament.

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

Certainly, both of these declarations are Biblically true.  However, these truths are NOT the point that would be under question.  Rather, the point that would be under question is whether or not the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, which He promised to engage in building, existed prior to the time (dispensation) of the New Testament, that is -- in the time (dispensation) of the Old Testament.

Moses knew his name was in the book, which I consider to be the book of life.

Exodus 32: 30 ¶  And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.34  Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

Daniel knew about this book.

Daniel 12:1 ¶  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The same event I believe which the Lord referred to in Matt 24:15 and following, also in Mark and Luke.
 

I will add that there may not have been a believing church in OT days (I am not suggesting either way) but I understand that OT believers were incorporated into the NT church.  I admit that John the Baptist is a difficulty, but was he saved?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Moses knew his name was in the book, which I consider to be the book of life.

Exodus 32: 30 ¶  And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.34  Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

Daniel knew about this book.

Daniel 12:1 ¶  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The same event I believe which the Lord referred to in Matt 24:15 and following, also in Mark and Luke.

Brother David,

What does any of this, although Biblical truth, have to do with the question as to whether or not the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church existed at that time of the Old Testament?

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

I will add that there may not have been a believing church in OT days (I am not suggesting either way) but I understand that OT believers were incorporated into the NT church.

Could you provide your Biblical evidence that Old Testament believers were incorporated into the New Testament church?

[Genevanpreacher]

Could it be possible that, in the verse that says "upon this rock I will build my church", that the phrase "build my church" might just engage the thoughtline that the church existed before it was 'founded' upon the truth that Peter stated "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" and the church that was built would then be built upon that foundation?

He didn't say 'create my church'.

The church is made up of believers in Jesus Christ, who is, was, and ever shall be, the God of the Bible in the OT and NT, albeit he was in different forms between the two.

Hence one who believed in God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength in the OT, is just as saved as the one who believes in Jesus Christ with all his heart in the NT.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother David,

What does any of this, although Biblical truth, have to do with the question as to whether or not the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church existed at that time of the Old Testament?

Could you provide your Biblical evidence that Old Testament believers were incorporated into the New Testament church?

I thought the teaching about the Lord doing the "captivity captive" thing was him preaching to one's in Paradise and the message converting them to be saved believers?

[Genevanpreacher]

Romans chapter 4 =

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

14 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Could it be possible that, in the verse that says "upon this rock I will build my church", that the phrase "build my church" might just engage the thoughtline that the church existed before it was 'founded' upon the truth that Peter stated "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" and the church that was built would then be built upon that foundation?

He didn't say 'create my church'.

To this the question then must be considered -- Did the church then exist in the time of the Old Testament with no foundation whatsoever, or did it exist in the Old Testament with a completely different foundation than that of the Lord Jesus Christ?

14 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

The church is made up of believers in Jesus Christ, who is, was, and ever shall be, the God of the Bible in the OT and NT, albeit he was in different forms between the two.

Hence one who believed in God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength in the OT, is just as saved as the one who believes in Jesus Christ with all his heart in the NT.

Certainly, our Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son "who is, was, and ever shall be" the Second Person of the eternal Godhead as revealed in God's Holy Word for both the Old Testament and the New Testament.  Certainly, a genuine believer in the Old Testament was just as eternally saved as a genuine believer in this time of the New Testament.  Certainly, the church now in this time of the New Testament is "made up of believers in Jesus Christ." 

However, I say again -- None of these Biblical truths are the matter under question.  Rather, the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.

34 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Romans chapter 4:1-25 . . . .

Certainly, Old Testament believers were eternally justified through faith just as New Testament believers are now eternally justified through faith.  However, I repeat myself yet again -- This Biblical truth is not the matter under question.  Rather, the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.  So then, what does Romans 4:1-25 have to say specifically about whether or not THE CHURCH existed in the time of the Old Testament?

Now, at some point you need to understand that as long as you continue to present matters concerning salvation, justification, faith, etc., we will continue to go in this same circle:

1.  You will present some Biblical truth concerning how Old Testament believers were saved the same way as New Testament believers are now saved.
2.  I will express my agreement with the Biblical truths that you present concerning these matters.
3.  Then I will repeat that these points of agreement over these Biblical truths are NOT the matter under question, but that the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I thought the teaching about the Lord doing the "captivity captive" thing was him preaching to one's in Paradise and the message converting them to be saved believers?

Well now, I myself do not even hold to that viewpoint concerning "the 'captivity captive' thing."  However, granting it for the sake of your argument, you then move from it to the conclusion that these Old Testament believers were thereby converted "to be saved believers."  Excluding the point of disagreement over "the 'captivity captive' thing," I certainly agree with the Biblical truth that Old Testament believers were "saved believers."  However, that was NOT the matter of the question to which you provided your response.  Rather, the matter of the question was what Biblical evidence could be provided to indicate that Old Testament beliers were incorporated into THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

[Invicta]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

To this the question then must be considered -- Did the church then exist in the time of the Old Testament with no foundation whatsoever, or did it exist in the Old Testament with a completely different foundation than that of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Certainly, our Lord Jesus Christ is God the Son "who is, was, and ever shall be" the Second Person of the eternal Godhead as revealed in God's Holy Word for both the Old Testament and the New Testament.  Certainly, a genuine believer in the Old Testament was just as eternally saved as a genuine believer in this time of the New Testament.  Certainly, the church now in this time of the New Testament is "made up of believers in Jesus Christ." 

However, I say again -- None of these Biblical truths are the matter under question.  Rather, the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.

Certainly, Old Testament believers were eternally justified through faith just as New Testament believers are now eternally justified through faith.  However, I repeat myself yet again -- This Biblical truth is not the matter under question.  Rather, the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.  So then, what does Romans 4:1-25 have to say specifically about whether or not THE CHURCH existed in the time of the Old Testament?

Now, at some point you need to understand that as long as you continue to present matters concerning salvation, justification, faith, etc., we will continue to go in this same circle:

1.  You will present some Biblical truth concerning how Old Testament believers were saved the same way as New Testament believers are now saved.
2.  I will express my agreement with the Biblical truths that you present concerning these matters.
3.  Then I will repeat that these points of agreement over these Biblical truths are NOT the matter under question, but that the matter under question is whether or not THE CHURCH, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the time of the Old Testament.

Well now, I myself do not even hold to that viewpoint concerning "the 'captivity captive' thing."  However, granting it for the sake of your argument, you then move from it to the conclusion that these Old Testament believers were thereby converted "to be saved believers."  Excluding the point of disagreement over "the 'captivity captive' thing," I certainly agree with the Biblical truth that Old Testament believers were "saved believers."  However, that was NOT the matter of the question to which you provided your response.  Rather, the matter of the question was what Biblical evidence could be provided to indicate that Old Testament beliers were incorporated into THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

Brother Scott,

You agree that "Old Testament believers were thereby converted "to be saved believers."  so how were they saved? and what church were they saved into? 

[Genevanpreacher]

Bro. Scott,

My point on those verses are that the church IS made up of believers, whether NT or OT, and as such the church DID exist before the NT, since anyone putting their faith in the Lord is saved, and the church is made up OF the saved, I say yes the church DID exist before the NT.

There are witnesses to that in the verses referenced in the comparison of the OT about faith and believing in the Lord as righteousness, which IS salvation.

So in my opinion, the church as believers existed, they were just waiting for the real sacrifice to base that faith upon, since the law was our school master to bring us to that faith.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Brother Scott,

You agree that "Old Testament believers were thereby converted "to be saved believers."  so how were they saved? and what church were they saved into? 

Brother David,

Concerning your first question, they were saved through faith in the Lord God and in His promised Savior.  Concerning your second question, there is NO indication that they were saved into the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church.  Indeed, that is the matter under question; and if you disagree, you need to provide actual Biblical evidence, not just that they were saved through faith, but also that they were saved into the Lord Jesus Christ's church.

 

15 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Bro. Scott,

My point on those verses are that the church IS made up of believers, whether NT or OT, and as such the church DID exist before the NT, since anyone putting their faith in the Lord is saved, and the church is made up OF the saved, I say yes the church DID exist before the NT.

There are witnesses to that in the verses referenced in the comparison of the OT about faith and believing in the Lord as righteousness, which IS salvation.

So in my opinion, the church as believers existed, they were just waiting for the real sacrifice to base that faith upon, since the law was our school master to bring us to that faith.

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

And my point is that although you have provided Biblical evidence that Old Testament believers were saved through faith in the Lord God and His promised Savior, you have not provided a single passage of Biblical evidence that indicates that "the church IS made up of believers, whether New Testament or Old Testament." 

Thus far you and Brother David have provided the following passages of Scripture -- John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Exodus 32:30-34; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:15; Romans 4:1-25.  Yet not a single one of these passage makes reference to THE CHURCH.  Therefore, not a single one of these passages can answer the question as to those who make up THE CHURCH.

If you want to make your point with Biblical evidence, actually find a passage of Scripture that references THE CHURCH, and then demonstrate from that passage whom it defines as being a part of THE CHURCH.  Or, find a passage of Scripture that references THE CHURCH, and then demonstrate from that passage that it reveals the existence of the church in the time of the Old Testament. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2015‎ ‎6‎:‎37‎:‎35‎, Invicta said:

Would you like to expand on that?

Concerning the New Testament Church.

I would contend that the church which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church in Matthew 16:18 is specifically an element of the New Testament dispensation.  I would hold to this position for the following reasons:

1.  In Matthew 16:18 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke in the future tense concerning His promise to engage in the building of His church on the doctrinal foundation of His deity.

2.  From Ephesians 1:19-23 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ became Head over all things for the sake of the church at His exaltation unto the right hand of the Father.

3.  From Ephesians 2:14-17 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ created “one new man,” that is – the new spiritually entity of the church, through His crucifixion.

4.  From Ephesians 2:19-22 we learn that this new spiritual entity of the church is built upon the New Testament apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

5.  From Ephesians 3:1-13 we learn that the “manifold wisdom of God” in formulating the New Testament church was a Biblical mystery, “which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,” “which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,” but which by New Testament revelation through the Holy Spirit was revealed unto the New Testament apostles and prophets.

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the New Testament Church.

I would contend that the church which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church in Matthew 16:18 is specifically an element of the New Testament dispensation.  I would hold to this position for the following reasons:

1.  In Matthew 16:18 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke in the future tense concerning His promise to engage in the building of His church on the doctrinal foundation of His deity.

2.  From Ephesians 1:19-23 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ became Head over all things for the sake of the church at His exaltation unto the right hand of the Father.

3.  From Ephesians 2:14-17 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ created “one new man,” that is – the new spiritually entity of the church, through His crucifixion.

4.  From Ephesians 2:19-22 we learn that this new spiritual entity of the church is built upon the New Testament apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

5.  From Ephesians 3:1-13 we learn that the “manifold wisdom of God” in formulating the New Testament church was a Biblical mystery, “which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,” “which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,” but which by New Testament revelation through the Holy Spirit was revealed unto the New Testament apostles and prophets.

I also would contend that your last 3 references do not mention the church. Thus negating them as proof for your view.

But I will state that just because a verse doesn't say church in it, it doesn't mean it is not speaking about the church, (like our other references?)

[Genevanpreacher]

A quick question Bro. Scott, as a curiosity - if believers don't 'make up' the church, and a NT 'organizing' does, what is the church then?

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

If you want to make your point with Biblical evidence, actually find a passage of Scripture that references THE CHURCH, and then demonstrate from that passage whom it defines as being a part of THE CHURCH.  Or, find a passage of Scripture that references THE CHURCH, and then demonstrate from that passage that it reveals the existence of the church in the time of the Old Testament. 

As for NT verses referencing the church in the OT - Acts 7 -

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I know, I know, this is not the church...sure seems like Stephen thought it was.

[Genevanpreacher]

In looking up in the older Bibles I noticed the Tyndale Bible, Cranmer Bible, Great Bible and Geneva Bible, all say 'congregation'  -  the Wycliffe Bible, as well as the Bishop's Bible, agree with the KJB for Acts 7:38.

Just interesting comparison.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the New Testament Church.

I would contend that the church which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church in Matthew 16:18 is specifically an element of the New Testament dispensation.  I would hold to this position for the following reasons:

1.  In Matthew 16:18 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke in the future tense concerning His promise to engage in the building of His church on the doctrinal foundation of His deity.

2.  From Ephesians 1:19-23 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ became Head over all things for the sake of the church at His exaltation unto the right hand of the Father.

3.  From Ephesians 2:14-17 we learn that our Lord Jesus Christ created “one new man,” that is – the new spiritually entity of the church, through His crucifixion.

4.  From Ephesians 2:19-22 we learn that this new spiritual entity of the church is built upon the New Testament apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

5.  From Ephesians 3:1-13 we learn that the “manifold wisdom of God” in formulating the New Testament church was a Biblical mystery, “which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,” “which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,” but which by New Testament revelation through the Holy Spirit was revealed unto the New Testament apostles and prophets.

 

26 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I also would contend that your last 3 references do not mention the church. Thus negating them as proof for your view.

But I will state that just because a verse doesn't say church in it, it doesn't mean it is not speaking about the church, (like our other references?)

Actually, Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Ephesians 3:10 does indeed specifically reference the church. And since Ephesians 3:1-13 presents only two actual (although lengthy) sentences, the reference to the church in Ephesians 3:10 is a very part of the context of these two sentences.  Furthermore, since Ephesians 2:14-22 also presents only two actual (although lengthy) sentences, and since these two sentences immediately precede the two sentences of Ephesians 3:1-13, the reference to the church in Ephesians 3:10 is also a part of the context of these two sentences.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

22 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

A quick question Bro. Scott, as a curiosity - if believers don't 'make up' the church, and a NT 'organizing' does, what is the church then?

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

I believe that you have a misunderstanding concerning my position.  I have not denied that genuine New Testament believers "make up" the church.  I have only denied that Old Testament believers, although eternally saved through faith, are a part of the New Testament church.  Furthermore, I would not indicate that a New Testament "organizing" (if we are thinking a man-made "organizing") began the church.  Rather, I would indicate that a New Testament foundation by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and His New Testament apostles and prophets were the beginning of the church.  Therefore, I would indeed deny that the New Testament church, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the Old Testament.

32 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

As for NT verses referencing the church in the OT - Acts 7 -

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I know, I know, this is not the church...sure seems like Stephen thought it was.

Ah, yes, Acts 7:38 -- I was wondering when one of you would bring this one forward.  Please notice that Stephen refers specifically to "the church in the wilderness."  This refers to the congregation of Israel.  This does not refer to the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, the church that our Lord Jesus Christ specifically referenced in Matthew 16:18 as His church.  Indeed, there are other types of church (Greek - "ekklesia") referenced in the New Testament, and different types of congregations (Hebrew - "qahal") referenced in the Old Testament.  However, my questions have continually been concerning the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church.

[Genevanpreacher]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Ephesians 3:10 does indeed specifically reference the church. And since Ephesians 3:1-13 presents only two actual (although lengthy) sentences, the reference to the church in Ephesians 3:10 is a very part of the context of these two sentences.  Furthermore, since Ephesians 2:14-22 also presents only two actual (although lengthy) sentences, and since these two sentences immediately precede the two sentences of Ephesians 3:1-13, the reference to the church in Ephesians 3:10 is also a part of the context of these two sentences.

My mistake, should've noticed when my mouse ran over the references it seemed to short to be a real reference from you.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

I believe that you have a misunderstanding concerning my position.  I have not denied that genuine New Testament believers "make up" the church.  I have only denied that Old Testament believers, although eternally saved through faith, are a part of the New Testament church.  Furthermore, I would not indicate that a New Testament "organizing" (if we are thinking a man-made "organizing") began the church.  Rather, I would indicate that a New Testament foundation by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and His New Testament apostles and prophets were the beginning of the church.  Therefore, I would indeed deny that the New Testament church, which our Lord Jesus Christ called His church, existed in the Old Testament.

Ah, yes, Acts 7:38 -- I was wondering when one of you would bring this one forward.  Please notice that Stephen refers specifically to "the church in the wilderness."  This refers to the congregation of Israel.  This does not refer to the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, the church that our Lord Jesus Christ specifically referenced in Matthew 16:18 as His church.  Indeed, there are other types of church (Greek - "ekklesia") referenced in the New Testament, and different types of congregations (Hebrew - "qahal") referenced in the Old Testament.  However, my questions have continually been concerning the church that our Lord Jesus Christ called His church.

So what you are saying is you want details that cannot be supported the way you want to see them. So why ask?

A church is made up of believers. There were believers in the OT. That makes them a church or congregation. Why does it matter when it was? It was.

Ever look up where that refers to in the OT? They were gathered together to hear the word from God. They heard God's word preached. Their hearts were turned to the Lord. They even met with God.

Sounds like church.

Exodus 19 by the way.