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Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.


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On Sunday, September 13, 2015, MountainChristian said:

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luke 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Us spiritual Jews do not become one of the tribes. But the physical Jews do belong to one of the tribes.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

It must be coming to earth because Jesus told us to pray for it. The earth would give the kingdom land. If this was a landless kingdom it would've been called the church. The church being the people and not the building or ground. The Catholics say that is Vatican City yet they don't believe Jesus will ever rule the earth from there.

Please share your :twocents:

I noticed that the translators have put a 'full stop' after the phrase 'Thy kingdom come'     does this mean that the following text could be understood to be a related but different event?

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49 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

No. Saved gentiles do not 'become' jews, but this reference you mention in Romans 2 is a picture of equality with jews according to the real circumcision.

Of the heart.

As for the rest of your verses? I applaud you for pointing out the single mindedness of God in salvation. The mind of God that states all are equal. Jew, gentile, and Israelite, and anyone else that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

All ARE, (not 'become'), the Israel of God.

And thus, all Israel will be saved.

Thank you.

Yes I Agree with you Genevapreacher, I think the term Jew and Israel are like almost every other term in scripture and so have an earthly reference and an heavenly one, or a natural and a spiritual one, a type and a real. Just like there is a 'Day' of man and there is 'The Lords Day' one is a shadow of the other,   'For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God'. Romans 2:28-29 Although 'For he is not a Jew...' this fellow actually is a literal Jew with natural Jewish blood and decent, he isnt a 'jew' in the important meaning of the word, not in the reality.

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7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Invicta,"

I notice that in such discussions as this, you like to bring forward the above verse - John 18:36

Concerning this verse I wish to ask you a question -- What is the meaning of the word "now" in the closing line of John 18:36?

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

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O

20 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

If what you are saying is correct, then would this not mean that everyone in Jerusalem at that yet future date would need to be 'Born again'? If they were not born of God how then could they see or enter the kingdom?

"Old-Pilgrim", yes, that is my understanding.  I believe that a future period of 7 years tribulation will occur. The bible refers to it as the "time of Jacob's trouble". During that time (which Daniel, Revelation, and others refer to) there will be many events transpire upon the entire world (not just the Jewish people). But there are specific things which will happen to Israel during that time... I believe 2/3rds of the Jewish people will die during that time, but 1/3 will survive through it and turn to Christ, and yes, at the end ALL (remaining remnant of Jews) will be saved.

Why do I believe that? Because that's what the bible (God's word says):

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Zechariah 13:
8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Joel 2:18 "Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
 

 

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36 minutes ago, Ronda said:

O

"Old-Pilgrim", yes, that is my understanding.  I believe that a future period of 7 years tribulation will occur. The bible refers to it as the "time of Jacob's trouble". During that time (which Daniel, Revelation, and others refer to) there will be many events transpire upon the entire world (not just the Jewish people). But there are specific things which will happen to Israel during that time... I believe 2/3rds of the Jewish people will die during that time, but 1/3 will survive through it and turn to Christ, and yes, at the end ALL (remaining remnant of Jews) will be saved.

Why do I believe that? Because that's what the bible (God's word says):

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Zechariah 13:
8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Joel 2:18 "Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
 

 

Rondah there might be some truth in the position you hold to, however;

Acts 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These verses quote from Joel in the context of the verses having been or being fulfilled. Also Have you ever meditated or pondered on how they (the state and the state church) used to use green wood when burning Christians or send out armies over large areas with free lenience to kill Christians, or cut the flesh from their lower Jaws before burning them,  a long slow torture was considered to be mercy, and kindness, giving the Christians more time to recant. Now I may be wrong, but to me that was 'GREAT TRIBULATION', and I have also heard that it was the Jesuits who formulated the doctrine of the seven year tribulation in order to 'hide' or 'cover' the truth of church history (the word 'hell' means 'to cover/hide' Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.). the term GREAT TRIBULATION is referring to earth, how great could Tribulation get for an individual or for an estimated 120 000 000 individuals at the hands of Rome? not to mention the rest since then!

notice hell follows death. The Death cult murders, then they cover it up.

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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Those verses quoted in Joel have NOT been fulfilled (yet).  Neither has this one:

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
 

The time of Jacob's trouble/the tribulation is described in detail throughout the bible.  It is also referred to as a time so terrible there are no other times which can compare in the past nor will there be in the future a time so horrible.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."
 

God is very specific about the degree of tribulation being worse than we've ever seen. YES, we've seen past horrible tribulations upon Jewish and Christians both. However, as horrible as they were, the time described in Revelation (and elsewhere) is unique in that it will be the worst tribulation ever. It's ironic you brought out the verse you chose as an example... Revelation 6:8 describes a future event which will be the opening of the 4th seal.  Just a few verses later it described the 6th seal. 

Revelation 6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"
13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
 

So your theory of Revelation 6:8 being a past event doesn't make sense, if Rev. 6:8 has (supposedly) already happened, then the reasoning would follow that Revelation 6:14 has already (supposedly) happened. So let me ask you... When was that period of time when EVERY mountain and island were moved out of their places??? It is a future event. So horrible we cannot truly grasp. And the seal judgments are near the beginning! There will then be trumpet and vial/bowl judgments to come after that. 

 

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5 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

Just a heads up here fellas...Bro. David is 5 hours ahead of us here in the U.S.

I am sure he will get to it when he can.

And no, Alan, Pastor Markle has not hit the mark. Just show a fellow brother a little patience, please.

Yes, like 3 mods do take it out, where others use a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it.

Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue.

The important thing is 'what does Markle think it means?', which implies something of major importance.

Evidently.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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19 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  

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17 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Just a heads up here fellas...Bro. David is 5 hours ahead of us here in the U.S.

I am sure he will get to it when he can.

And no, Alan, Pastor Markle has not hit the mark. Just show a fellow brother a little patience, please.

Yes, like 3 mods do take it out, where others use a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it.

Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue.

The important thing is 'what does Markle think it means?', which implies something of major importance.

Evidently.

Brethren,

For a person to say that taking out the the word "now,' from the very lips of the Lord Jesus by these modern translations is, "a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it," is incorrect. And, to say, "Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue" is also incorrect. It is not a "conspiratorial" issue, it is a violation of the very words of the scripture.

Pastor Markle has indeed "hit the mark" in his acute observation.

The deliberate taking out of the word, "now" by these modern translations is in complete unbelief of the doctrine of the coming, literal Kingdom of the Lord Jesus as prophesied by the prophets and revealed in Revelation 20:4-6

Furthermore, it is in deliberate violation of the warning given by the Holy Spirit in Revelation 22:18 and 19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the prophecy of this book of thisprophecy, God shall take away his part of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

These translators who take away the very words of the Lord Jesus, "now," in John 18;36 are in clear violation of this warning. These translators despise the very words of the Lord Jesus, the scriptures and the doctrine of the coming, visible kingdom of the Lord Jesus.

Alan

Edited by Alan
grammer twice
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"But now is my Kingdom not from hence."

 

'But my Kingdom is not from hence."

 

There is most assuredly a difference.  The word "now" indicates a specific time frame.  The present time in which Christ Jesus was speaking.  This leaves toom for a coming Kingdom,... a Kingdom that the Word of God declares is to come.

 

Why would Jesus even teach His Disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come" if His Kingdom would not be established on Earth at a future time?

 

Hence, the necessity of the word "now" in John 18:36. 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  

I don't consider the very word of God "fatuous".  What one might have eaten for supper or the latest score of a sports game... those would be silly or inconsequential questions, but questions about the word of God are certainly not "fatuous".  I revere the word of God.  God certainly doesn't consider His word to be "fatuous":

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

How important is it that God's word remain accurate? 
Here's how important the Word of God is: 

God has magnified His Word above His name!!! What a profound statement! (Psalm 138:2)
The Word of God (in Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among men! (John 1:14)
How long has the Word been with God? Since the beginning! (John 1:1)

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Psalm 138:2 "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

So, according to God's own Holy Word... Jesus placed a very high emphasis on not only the jot but the tittle as well (the decorative tiny mark)... it leads me to feel confident, Jesus would not want entire words left out either. 

To be honest, the lack of reverence to the word of God (being called a fatuous question!) is a direct affront on the word of God and on God Himself.  I have been called many names in my lifetime, and have managed to overcome the hurt and/or anger (with God's help and grace). I have learned to turn the other cheek often times (not always, but again, I bring it to the Lord).  But one thing I cannot stand is someone mocking the word of God.The anger I feel in such circumstances (I believe) is a righteous anger.  It's not because of the offense towards myself, nor towards another brother or sister, that concerns me the most (although there is some concern about that as well). It's the direct affront on the holiness of God's word. If you chose that particular word to outrage those who believe the word of God says what  it means and means what it says... you have gotten your intended reaction. But I would be much more concerned with offending God than offending mankind. And it makes me wonder.... I could say much more... but then I would be feeding fleshy desires. And so I will finish this statement by saying I will pray for you, and most certainly not a fatuous prayer!

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30 minutes ago, Ronda said:

I don't consider the very word of God "fatuous". 

You didn't read his comment right here.

No where did Invicta state that the word of God was 'fatuous'. He was in reference to Scotts question. Which sometimes seem to be fatuous, especially when the need to disqualify a coming answer arises.

The obvious has, once again, been supplanted by disagreement, before an answer to the question has even been replied to.

It is a wonder why people even come here for information anymore.

Reading is important to discussion on this forum, and if you're gonna respond in 'attitude', at least make sure to read the post you are gonna 'critique'.

30 minutes ago, Ronda said:

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."*

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

Your verses here are the usual 'hype' from 'unstudied' content, just rattled off from previous teachers 'of the word', that teach a bunch of mumbo jumbo and tell the sheeple what to believe instead of just accepting the pure word of God from HIS writings.

*Please read the bold type that I highlighted...please?

The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue.

That has nothing to do with whether a text of a Bible is missing some words.

 

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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