Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.

[Genevanpreacher]

4 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ahhhh, but you did not have to be quoting, just explaining.  And you explanation stands contradictory to the Holy Spirit's inspired grammar of the passage.  The Holy Spirit used a present tense verb, "are come," in order to reveal that which is already true.  You used a present progressive verb, "are coming," in order to explain a process that will not be complete until the future.  Your explanation and the Holy Spirit's revelation stand in contradiction.  The Holy Spirit is correct.

Good point. But useless again.

You will never be satisfied from anyone's wording of how they view a subject, unless they say it perfect.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Genevanpreacher]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No need for me to make this claim, since my position is not that the five groups encompass only individuals on the earth, but is that the five groups encompass individuals both in heaven and on the earth.  It is your position that seeks to claim that the five groups encompass only individuals in heaven. 
 

Indeed.  Brother "Genevanpreachers" position -- "But ye [we] are coming unto . . ."

The Holy Spirit's position by inspiration in Hebrews 12:22 -- "But ye [we] are come unto . . ."  (Notice the verb "come" without the suffix "ing" on the end.)

Indeed, in fulfilling the responsibility of "rightly dividing" in Bible study, "jot and tittle" precision matters.

synonyms for "come" - advance, approach, near, nigh.

synonyms for "coming" - approaching, forthcoming,imminent, impending, nearing,oncoming, pending, proximate,upcoming.

Don't see why the concern. If it's just because it is not 'accurate wording from scripture' to explain a thought from a mere humans mouth, you are losing the battle to witness with your own human mouth. 'Giving sense to scripture' does not make a person in error when not using exact wording from the Bible.

Your explanations leave no room for humans to speak about the word of God. The  four Gospels themselves are replete with variations on the 'facts' about the Lord and his ministry.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

51 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

synonyms for "come" - advance, approach, near, nigh.

synonyms for "coming" - approaching, forthcoming,imminent, impending, nearing,oncoming, pending, proximate,upcoming.

Don't see why the concern.

Giving the definition for the verb "come" and the verb "coming" is not all that relevant, since they are actually two different forms of the same exact word.  The concern is over the tense which each of these forms presents.  To illustrate why verb tense matters, allow me to present an example with two directly opposite verb tenses.  Do the following two statement mean the same thing?

1.  Our Lord Jesus Christ has come.
2.  Our Lord Jesus Christ shall come.

In both statements the verb is the same, that is -- the verb "come."  However, the meaning of the two statements is NOT the same, specifically because the tenses of the verb are different.  Even so, I have already provided the reason why your explanation and the Holy Spirit's inspired declaration do not mean the same thing specifically because of the difference in the verb tenses, as follows:

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ahhhh, but you did not have to be quoting, just explaining.  And your explanation stands contradictory to the Holy Spirit's inspired grammar of the passage.  The Holy Spirit used a present tense verb, "are come," in order to reveal that which is already true.  You used a present progressive verb, "are coming," in order to explain a process that will not be complete until the future.  Your explanation and the Holy Spirit's revelation stand in contradiction.  The Holy Spirit is correct.

So, does this change in verb tense affect the understanding of the passage?  It certainly does, as your following explanation of the passage illustrates:

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

My view is that this is in reference to what we are 'coming to': and that is 'heaven' - where all the aforementioned things, are what we will see.

In your above explanation, you employ the present progressive verb "are coming" (in the place of the Holy Spirit's strictly present tense verb "are come") with the definite intention of pushing the event unto some time in the future, as is clearly revealed by your concluding phrase, "are what we will [future tense] see."

Now, the passage actually does not mention anything about the action of "seeing."  Rather, the passage speaks about the action of "coming," and does so in the strict present tense ("are come") in order to indicate present inclusion and participation. 

Even so, this difference in the two verb tenses (the Holy Spirit's - "are come," and yours - "are coming") results in the following difference in understanding:

1.  The five groups encompass individuals both in heaven and on the earth.

Or,

2.  The five groups encompass individuals only in heaven.

And why does this precise difference matter?  Because it affects our understanding as to whether, or not, the two listed groups of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" and of "the spirits of just men made perfect" can be made directly equivalent to one another?

If the five groups of the passage encompass individuals only in heaven, such that the New Testament believers who "are coming" unto those groups are not actually a part with those groups until they are dead and in heaven, then the groups of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" and of "the spirits of just men made perfect" could possibly be understood as directly equivalent to one another.

However, if the five groups of the passage encompass individual both in heaven and on the earth, such that the New Testament believers who "are come" unto those groups are already a part with those groups at the present time, then the groups of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" and of "the spirits of just men made perfect" cannot be understood as directly equivalent to one another, because the New Testament believers on the earth would be a part with one of those groups, but not with the other.

So then, the precision of the verb's tense has a very significant impact upon an accurate understanding of the passage.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

 LIke I said, nothing I say will match up to your understanding. So there, be right, and understood by whoever can understand you.

I give up.

[Genevanpreacher]

4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

So Bro. Scott, is it your opinion (since you say this is talking about people alive on the earth at the time of the writing of Hebrews), that the Lord God and the Lord Jesus are on earth 'alive' then too? And maybe the angels also?

* My view is that this is in reference to what we are 'coming to': and that is 'heaven' - where all the aforementioned things, are what we will see.

That is all. I don't think your 'depth' of a supposed study is a necessary 'depth' to view.

Of course that is my opinion.

Let me just do one more thing here and see if I can redeem myself.

*Change the above to read -

"My view is that this is in reference to what we are to 'come to': and that is 'heaven' - where all the aforementioned things, are what we will see."

I am more than sure, that this will make NO difference to you Scott.

Oh well, I do have other friends.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Just now, Genevanpreacher said:

Let me just do one more thing here and see if I can redeem myself.

*Change the above to read -

"My view is that this is in reference to what we are to 'come to': and that is 'heaven' - where all the aforementioned things, are what we will see."

So, do you actually want me to respond?  Or, do you just want me to agree with you, regardless of my response?

[Critical Mass]

People keep overlooking the fact that Hebrews was written to saints in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). Now if you want to think that the last 1,985 years have been that last days I would kind of find that to be a stretch. The whole book belongs to Jews in the Great Tribulation after the church is gone, the new temple is built, the sacrifices reinstituted and the Antichrist reconfirms the covenant with Israel.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Critical Mass

[beameup]

8 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

People keep overlooking the fact that Hebrews was written to saints in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). Now if you want to think that the last 1,985 years have been that last days I would kind of find that to be a stretch. The whole book belongs to Jews in the Great Tribulation after the church is gone, the new temple is built, the sacrifices reinstituted and the Antichrist reconfirms the covenant with Israel.

Amen!  So few seem to be able to come to this obvious conclusion.  It is unfortunate because the "misapplication" of this book to the body of Christ has caused so much confusion.

[No Nicolaitans]

(Hebrews 1:1-2) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The writer of Hebrews included himself (us) as having heard Jesus' words which were spoken (hath - present tense)...the last days were then and will continue until they end.

 

[wretched]

11 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

People keep overlooking the fact that Hebrews was written to saints in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). Now if you want to think that the last 1,985 years have been that last days I would kind of find that to be a stretch. The whole book belongs to Jews in the Great Tribulation after the church is gone, the new temple is built, the sacrifices reinstituted and the Antichrist reconfirms the covenant with Israel.

Wow fella, I certainly subscribe to rightly dividing the Word and I think it is obvious that the Lord has dealt with certain peoples at certain times differently but that only applies when it is grammatically obvious in Scripture.

These statements are not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. Are you claiming that the church is excluded from applying any portion of Hebrews to themselves.

So would you be of the faction that feels that since you are a believing gentile that all that applies to you as far as living for God is: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication?

 

[beameup]

22 minutes ago, wretched said:

Wow fella, I certainly subscribe to rightly dividing the Word and I think it is obvious that the Lord has dealt with certain peoples at certain times differently but that only applies when it is grammatically obvious in Scripture.

These statements are not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. Are you claiming that the church is excluded from applying any portion of Hebrews to themselves.

So would you be of the faction that feels that since you are a believing gentile that all that applies to you as far as living for God is: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication?

I think he would be more inclined to advise following the Apostle to the Gentiles in matters of faith.  That would be Romans through Philemon.

 

[wretched]

1 hour ago, beameup said:

I think he would be more inclined to advise following the Apostle to the Gentiles in matters of faith.  That would be Romans through Philemon.

Got it, thanks. Just curious how thinly you fellas cut your meat is all  The teachings of Christ in the Gospels, the Books of Act and all the rest of the NT will make your steak far more healthy for your growth. Who The Lord directs the Book to in the text can be mistakenly sliced too thin.

Remember that God also used Paul to tell all people this (not just Timothy):

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Selah

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by wretched

[Invicta]

13 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

People keep overlooking the fact that Hebrews was written to saints in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). Now if you want to think that the last 1,985 years have been that last days I would kind of find that to be a stretch. The whole book belongs to Jews in the Great Tribulation after the church is gone, the new temple is built, the sacrifices reinstituted and the Antichrist reconfirms the covenant with Israel.

Nonsense

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

"O Brethren, give ear to a noble lesson.
We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end. 

Extract fro the Noble Lesson of the Waldenses, written about AD 1160

 

[Ronda]

I agree with pastor Markle in his previous statements on the thread, and I believe he has has rightly divided the dispensations shown in Hebrews 12:22-24.
We (those of us saved during this present age of grace) are "church of the firstborn" noted specifically in Hebrews 12:23. 
And these verses also show a clear separation of different dispensations as well. "the spirits of just men made perfect" are clearly NOT the same people group as the "the spirits of just men made perfect".
This shows a differentiation between those people groups (as well as the fact that it was a different dispensation).

That said, the verses in Hebrews 12:22-24 do note "our" current dispensation, However, Hebrews was written to whom? Hebrews of course. 

I also agree with part of what "Critical Mass" and "Beam me up" have stated in regard to the book of Hebrews 
Hebrews (for the most part) was written for the saints in the last days (referencing the Jewish tribulation saints which will be going through the time of Jacob's trouble).

I come to this conclusion by rightly dividing dispensations.

An obvious reference can be seen by noting to WHOM the epistle (letter) was written. As we know, many of these "books" of the bible were actually epistles. Epistles were letters written to various congregations in different area.

For instance, we can clearly see that Paul wrote the "Romans" epistle to those in Rome (predominantly Gentile), Corinthians was written to those in Corinth (predominately Gentile), Galatians was written to those in Galatia (predominately Gentile as well), etc.
Paul's wrote these epistles to the Gentile churches (who obviously were then become no longer Gentile, but saved by grace, and "born again" into the "church of the firstborn". 

Hebrews was written to WHOM? Obviously not a predominately Gentile people group, but, in fact, a predominately Jewish group.
We can see this clearly on the map below. We can also clearly see dispensational differences throughout the "book" of Hebrews as well.

The books of Hebrews and James are not written TO born again Christians but to Jews. 
Hebrews obviously denotes the "Jewishness" of the epistle, and James is addressed to the "twelve tribes" (Jam. 1:1), not the body of Christ.
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Knowing who a book or epistle is written TO is imperative for sound Bible study.
Notice the change from the books placed prior to Hebrews... they books prior to Hebrews were dealing with the Body of Christ.
When we star treading Hebrews we can see the "Jewishness" of the Hebrews throughout. 

We (saved during age of grace) can certainly learn and profit from reading Hebrews, but when we try to apply it all doctrinally to the Church Age, we will soon run into "contradictions."
Here is one obvious reference which denotes that the book of Hebrews is not directed toward believers in this current age of grace: Hebrews 6:4-6.
The emphasis of Hebrews appears to apply to Hebrews in the Tribulation when Israel is again the main object of God's dealings. 
We (saved during the dispensation of grace) know that we cannot "lose" our salvation, we are eternally secure.
When a person doesn't understand the difference between this current dispensation of grace in contrast with other dispensations, it causes the person to apply ALL scripture to themselves.
We can see that they would use Hebrews 6:4-6 as their supposed "proof" text in an erroneous assumption that those of us in the current dispensation of grace could "lose our salvation".
However, we see this is not the case in reading Paul's writing regarding "us" in the current age of grace.
(2 Cor. 1:22, Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30,  and many other which do prove eternal security for those of us who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior in this current age of grace.) We (saved in age of grace) are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," 14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Contrast those verses with Hebrews 6:4-6. You will immediately see there is a completely different set of "rules" which apply here. Those who haven't rightly divided and believe Hebrews is written to apply TO themselves will see there is a contradiction, and they will then have to find a way to "explain away" the contradiction. But when you rightly divide and realize Hebrews was not meant to be doctrinal for the church age, you can find perfect harmony. God is not the author of confusion!

Another example of a complete contrast can be seen in the "hold fast until the end" theme of Hebrews 4:6. 
The passage applies doctrinally to Hebrews in the tribulation period enduring to the end of it in faith so they can enter into the Millennial Kingdom.
Those who refuse to rightly divide scripture misapply these verses to themselves and misapply them to this current dispensation of grace.

I could go on and on with the obvious contrasts of Hebrews in comparison/contrast with Paul's writings to the church age. But it will all come down to what you believe this instructive study method means: 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."  This instruction gives us clues... you cannot just pick the bible up and read it cover to cover and apply it all to yourself. Another clue, is that with bible study (prayerfully asking the Lord to have the Holy Spirit guide you) it takes study like a workman... that tells you right there, if you want to delve deep into the word of God it's not as easy as simply reading the words, but God desires for us to take on the study like a workman... do you picture a workman being kicked back in his/her Lazyboy recliner with the TV remote in one hand and skimming through the bible in the other hand? Do you picture a workman waiting until Sunday services to crack open the cover of the bible? Do you picture a workman No, I picture a workman as someone who is carefully poring over each and every verse, comparing and contrasting other scripture line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept.  If you see the only "dispensation" or "division" as the old testament in contrast with the new testament, God would not have inspired Paul to write the words "rightly dividing".

To sum it up simply: Hebrews refers TO Hebrews.

[wretched]

13 minutes ago, Ronda said:

I agree with pastor Markle in his previous statements on the thread, and I believe he has has rightly divided the dispensations shown in Hebrews 12:22-24.
We (those of us saved during this present age of grace) are "church of the firstborn" noted specifically in Hebrews 12:23. 
And these verses also show a clear separation of different dispensations as well. "the spirits of just men made perfect" are clearly NOT the same people group as the "the spirits of just men made perfect".
This shows a differentiation between those people groups (as well as the fact that it was a different dispensation).

That said, the verses in Hebrews 12:22-24 do note "our" current dispensation, However, Hebrews was written to whom? Hebrews of course. 

I also agree with part of what "Critical Mass" and "Beam me up" have stated in regard to the book of Hebrews 
Hebrews (for the most part) was written for the saints in the last days (referencing the Jewish tribulation saints which will be going through the time of Jacob's trouble).

I come to this conclusion by rightly dividing dispensations.

An obvious reference can be seen by noting to WHOM the epistle (letter) was written. As we know, many of these "books" of the bible were actually epistles. Epistles were letters written to various congregations in different area.

For instance, we can clearly see that Paul wrote the "Romans" epistle to those in Rome (predominantly Gentile), Corinthians was written to those in Corinth (predominately Gentile), Galatians was written to those in Galatia (predominately Gentile as well), etc.
Paul's wrote these epistles to the Gentile churches (who obviously were then become no longer Gentile, but saved by grace, and "born again" into the "church of the firstborn". 

Hebrews was written to WHOM? Obviously not a predominately Gentile people group, but, in fact, a predominately Jewish group.
We can see this clearly on the map below. We can also clearly see dispensational differences throughout the "book" of Hebrews as well.

The books of Hebrews and James are not written TO born again Christians but to Jews. 
Hebrews obviously denotes the "Jewishness" of the epistle, and James is addressed to the "twelve tribes" (Jam. 1:1), not the body of Christ.
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Knowing who a book or epistle is written TO is imperative for sound Bible study.
Notice the change from the books placed prior to Hebrews... they books prior to Hebrews were dealing with the Body of Christ.
When we star treading Hebrews we can see the "Jewishness" of the Hebrews throughout. 

We (saved during age of grace) can certainly learn and profit from reading Hebrews, but when we try to apply it all doctrinally to the Church Age, we will soon run into "contradictions."
Here is one obvious reference which denotes that the book of Hebrews is not directed toward believers in this current age of grace: Hebrews 6:4-6.
The emphasis of Hebrews appears to apply to Hebrews in the Tribulation when Israel is again the main object of God's dealings. 
We (saved during the dispensation of grace) know that we cannot "lose" our salvation, we are eternally secure.
When a person doesn't understand the difference between this current dispensation of grace in contrast with other dispensations, it causes the person to apply ALL scripture to themselves.
We can see that they would use Hebrews 6:4-6 as their supposed "proof" text in an erroneous assumption that those of us in the current dispensation of grace could "lose our salvation".
However, we see this is not the case in reading Paul's writing regarding "us" in the current age of grace.
(2 Cor. 1:22, Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30,  and many other which do prove eternal security for those of us who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior in this current age of grace.) We (saved in age of grace) are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," 14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Contrast those verses with Hebrews 6:4-6. You will immediately see there is a completely different set of "rules" which apply here. Those who haven't rightly divided and believe Hebrews is written to apply TO themselves will see there is a contradiction, and they will then have to find a way to "explain away" the contradiction. But when you rightly divide and realize Hebrews was not meant to be doctrinal for the church age, you can find perfect harmony. God is not the author of confusion!

Another example of a complete contrast can be seen in the "hold fast until the end" theme of Hebrews 4:6. 
The passage applies doctrinally to Hebrews in the tribulation period enduring to the end of it in faith so they can enter into the Millennial Kingdom.
Those who refuse to rightly divide scripture misapply these verses to themselves and misapply them to this current dispensation of grace.

I could go on and on with the obvious contrasts of Hebrews in comparison/contrast with Paul's writings to the church age. But it will all come down to what you believe this instructive study method means: 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."  This instruction gives us clues... you cannot just pick the bible up and read it cover to cover and apply it all to yourself. Another clue, is that with bible study (prayerfully asking the Lord to have the Holy Spirit guide you) it takes study like a workman... that tells you right there, if you want to delve deep into the word of God it's not as easy as simply reading the words, but God desires for us to take on the study like a workman... do you picture a workman being kicked back in his/her Lazyboy recliner with the TV remote in one hand and skimming through the bible in the other hand? Do you picture a workman waiting until Sunday services to crack open the cover of the bible? Do you picture a workman No, I picture a workman as someone who is carefully poring over each and every verse, comparing and contrasting other scripture line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept.  If you see the only "dispensation" or "division" as the old testament in contrast with the new testament, God would not have inspired Paul to write the words "rightly dividing".

To sum it up simply: Hebrews refers TO Hebrews.

Impressive Rhonda, did you write this in total?

IMO allot of truth in what you are saying here as long as we don't dismiss God's truth for all believers found in this Book which it sounds like you agree with (I think). That is just as wrong as dismissing the truths in the Timothy's, Titus, Philemon, or even the Church Epistles. After all, technically, we are not those people either if we are determining God's sole audience by the Title or opening verses.

We must go allot deeper into the meat of His Word in these Books to properly divide the truths; NOT just the opening verses.

Perhaps you are saying the same thing but I can't be sure since it seems you are in agreement with CM and BMU on the issue? and if so, what you posted is not the same doctrinally as what CM and BMU posted. Their posts are written as if to dismiss these parts of God's Word in total simply because of the title or opening verses.

I think you are dividing properly here by the way. Not butchering.