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Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luke 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Us spiritual Jews do not become one of the tribes. But the physical Jews do belong to one of the tribes.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

It must be coming to earth because Jesus told us to pray for it. The earth would give the kingdom land. If this was a landless kingdom it would've been called the church. The church being the people and not the building or ground. The Catholics say that is Vatican City yet they don't believe Jesus will ever rule the earth from there.

Please share your :twocents:

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Brother "Invicta," I notice that in such discussions as this, you like to bring forward the above verse - John 18:36.  Concerning t

"But now is my Kingdom not from hence."   'But my Kingdom is not from hence."   There is most

Ezekiel 41-48 describes the Millennial Temple and the division of the land between the 12 Tribes.

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Mountain Christian, 

The pope rules the Catholic Church as 'Vicar of Christ' or vice Christ. He claims to be able to do all that God can do.  He claims to be God on Earth.  You may not hear that from current popes, but they have claimed that in the past, and those claims have never been rescinded.  They have also never rescinded the right they claim to persecute heretics, That is saints like you and me. She has said in the last   100 years, that if she had the power she would do so again, till after WW2 in fact, when she changed tack, to try and woo the church into accepting her as a christian church which has happened in ecumenical churches, thus destroying their witness.  The RCC church is an entirely evil anti christian organisation.

But I believe that Christ's kingdom IS the church, Jesus said Luke 9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. The only kingdom they lived to see was the one instituted at Pentecost.  Later on he told us the only way we could see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The only way we can see the kingdom is not waiting for the millennium but by  being born again.  

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I agree with you for once "Invicta", but only about the pope being evil.  He openly claimed that the god of the muslims is the same God we worship.  We know that isn't true, as the bible reveals who God is to us, and it certainly is NOT the same god they worship! 

But here's where we part ways in agreement.  I don't agree with many of your other statements:

First you said you "believe that Christ's kingdom IS the church"   I don't agree.  Let's look at the parallel passages to Luke 9:27

Matthew 16: 27-28
27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."        28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

It doesn't make sense (to me) that the church could be the kingdom.  To me, it doesn't make grammatical sense and it doesn't make plain sense.

 

NEXT, I disagree with your understanding of the part of the passage saying "some standing here"

Notice, Jesus did NOT say there be some standing here right now, this very minute.... (the moment he was speaking)

However, if we look deeper we see "some standing here" means Jesus was referencing the very spot he was standing.

So there will be some people standing there (where? that same spot Jesus was standing) WHEN they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom. (I believe) He was referring to a future event wherein some would be standing there in that very spot and those same people would not die (taste of death) until they saw Jesus return (coming with His kingdom).

 I could go on further to state that I believe that since that very spot is in Israel, and the Jews were ousted from Israel for many centuries but have now returned to that land (in 1948)  that those people could be the ones to whom he was referring,  those who would see Jesus come in their lifetimes.  And also He did say SOME, He did not say EVERY.

I also believe there are many prophetic references to the Jews returning to the land of Israel in the old testament. 

I know full well that it is not your opinion, "Invicta".  However, I am also permitted to give my opinion and understanding of scripture here on this site as well.      If "the world" has it's way, then soon NONE of us will be able to talk openly about biblical matters without fear of legal ramifications.  I intend to use as much time as I can (God willing) and as long as I am physically capable to use my voice and hands to do so (God willing),  to study and fellowship with other Christians as well.  

 

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I recently edited the word "NOT" in the 2nd sentence, as I had a grave omission there!
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Yes Ronda, of course you are free to give your opinion.  However, Jesus said "Some standing here" not "Some who will; be standing here in the future."  He was speaking to those standing there at that time.

You speak of persecution, but in the US you have not had persecution.  Here in England we have, not so much as in other parts of Europe, or as in some countries such as N Korea today.  If you ever come to England I can take you to the spot in Canterbury, about 9 miles from here, where martyrs were burnt to death.  You can stand and weep at the martyrs memorial.  I can take you to Ashford about 20 miles, where John Brown, one of the Lollards was burnt to death, having had hot coals on his feet and his soles burnt to the bone, had to walk to his the place of his execution on the banks of the river Stour.  No one knows the exact place but I can show you the river..  He had previously been held in a dungeon  known as the Lollards Hole in Wye.  Throughout our county, there are many such places, but only  few hundred souls. Whereas in other parts of Europe there were far more, and estimate is often given of 50.000,000 some twice as many or more..

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

MountainChristian: Us spiritual Jews do not become one of the tribes. But the physical Jews do belong to one of the tribes.

"Us spiritual Jews"?????????  Where in Scripture do you find that term?  Saved Gentiles do not become "spiritual" Jews!  

Many use Romans 2:28-29 to justify that saved Gentiles become "spiritual" Jews.  Salvation does not change one's ethnicity.  Saved Gentiles remain Gentiles and saved Jews remain Jews.  Gentiles have never become one of the tribes of the children of Israel.  However saved Jews and unsaved Jews, as physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, have always belonged to one of the tribes of the children of Israel.

There are 3 groups of peoples in Scripture: Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32)
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There are unsaved Jews, unsaved Gentiles and the Church of God, composed of saved Jews and Gentiles. 

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Body of Christ is one new man....no distinctions made in Christ:
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

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Jesus Christ will return to this earth to destroy all the nations that come against Israel at the battle of Armageddon and then He will set up His 1,000 year earthly reign from Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

We (the redeemed) will reign with Christ on the earth

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

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I agree with you for once "Invicta", but only about the pope being evil.  He openly claimed that the god of the muslims is the same God we worship.  We know that isn't true, as the bible reveals who God is to us, and it certainly is the same god they worship! 

But here's where we part ways in agreement.  I don't agree with many of your other statements:

First you said you "believe that Christ's kingdom IS the church"   I don't agree.  Let's look at the parallel passages to Luke 9:27

Matthew 16: 27-28
27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."        28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

It doesn't make sense (to me) that the church could be the kingdom.  To me, it doesn't make grammatical sense and it doesn't make plain sense.

 

NEXT, I disagree with your understanding of the part of the passage saying "some standing here"

Notice, Jesus did NOT say there be some standing here right now, this very minute.... (the moment he was speaking)

However, if we look deeper we see "some standing here" means Jesus was referencing the very spot he was standing.

So there will be some people standing there (where? that same spot Jesus was standing) WHEN they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom. (I believe) He was referring to a future event wherein some would be standing there in that very spot and those same people would not die (taste of death) until they saw Jesus return (coming with His kingdom).

 I could go on further to state that I believe that since that very spot is in Israel, and the Jews were ousted from Israel for many centuries but have now returned to that land (in 1948)  that those people could be the ones to whom he was referring,  those who would see Jesus come in their lifetimes.  And also He did say SOME, He did not say EVERY.

I also believe there are many prophetic references to the Jews returning to the land of Israel in the old testament. 

I know full well that it is not your opinion, "Invicta".  However, I am also permitted to give my opinion and understanding of scripture here on this site as well.      If "the world" has it's way, then soon NONE of us will be able to talk openly about biblical matters without fear of legal ramifications.  I intend to use as much time as I can (God willing) and as long as I am physically capable to use my voice and hands to do so (God willing),  to study and fellowship with other Christians as well.  

 

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The only way we can see the kingdom is not waiting for the millennium but by  being born again.  

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

How can we see the Kingdom God?

By being born again.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To address 2 items first: 1. Invicta said that I speak of persecutions, However, what I said was this: "  If "the world" has it's way, then soon NONE of us will be able to talk openly about biblical matters without fear of legal ramifications.  I intend to use as much time as I can (God willing) and as long as I am physically capable to use my voice and hands to do so (God willing),  to study and fellowship with other Christians as well. "  And Invicta also said " in the US you have not had persecution " And I must differ with his opinion also in the fact of a recent school shooting where a muslim student killed several Christian students, asking them first if they were, in fact, Christians before shooting them. Our US president didn't mention this fact, but when on to spew his anti-gun rhetoric. And to state that "you have not had persecutions" is assuming quite a lot. 

And 2nd: It's quite obvious that Invicta and I disagree about Luke 9:27 as well as Matthew 16:28. I already made my belief known, and so did Invicta. Rather than beat a dead horse (the discussion, not the person) I would like to return the the original topic of this thread, which was titled " Jesus' coming Kingdom on land " , I would like to further that line of discussion, as to it being on actual physical land. 

I agree with "Mountain Christian" as that there will be a kingdom on earth, and the verses chosen are also relevant. I would like to also include more to strengthen the fact that the millennial kingdom will be on earth.
I also agree with Linda: There is no place in scripture which states thatsaved Gentiles become "spiritual Jews". I also agree with LInda in her selection of scripture, and specifically Revelation 5:10 tells us it will be on earth!
I also agree with "Beam me up" (and thank you for including the map!) as to the actual physical land allotment in the millennium.
The bible gives clear reference to the borders and how the land of Israel will be partitioned by tribe in the millennial period in Ezekiel 47-48
Ezekiel 47:13 "Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel...
I am not going to quote both chapters here as we all have our own bibles. The scripture is very specific... actual land (on earth) and specific measurements as well as specific to each of the tribes of Israel.
Further, there are many other places in the bible which pertain to the millennial period:

THE MILLENIAL REIGN IS A PERIOD OF 1000 YEARS

Revelation 20:2" And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison..."

***Notice the term "thousand years", not just once, but SEVERAL times. 

THE MILLENNIAL REIGN IS ON EARTH:

Jeremiah 30:3 "3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."

**Notice the words used... not just "my people", but "my people Israel and Judah" and the word LAND is also used.

Jeremiah 30:9 "9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."
10 "Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

VERY SPECIFIC WORDING in reference to ZION and Jacob (as we should know, Jacob was renamed Israel in Genesis 32:28 and is reiterated in Genesis 35:9-10)

Jeremiah 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

**I can see NO WAY this could mean anything OTHER than what the word of God specifically said. There are numerous specific references to Israel throughout scripture which cannot be refuted without corrupting/changing/twisting the word of God. 

Jeremiah 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

THIS IS AN IRREVOCABLE AND UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE TO ISRAEL:
Jeremiah 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

HOW SERIOUS IS GOD ABOUT THIS PROMISE?
Jeremiah 33:25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Ezekiel 34:22 "Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle."
23 "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd".
and 30 "Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God."                      Ezekiel 37:24 "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."

I am sure I could find much more scripture to reference the truth of the 1000 year millennial period yet to come. The sheer volume of scripture written about it speaks to the importance God placed upon this promise to Israel. Why would anyone want to erroneously claim the blessings God made to Israel for themselves, and yet leave out the curses as applying to themselves as well?  God has made many promises to Israel which have not yet been fulfilled. God does not lie! God has not cast away Israel forever. Romans 11 speaks clearly to this also. 
 

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Ronda,

Thank you very much for bringing us back on topic concerning, "Jesus' coming Kingdom on land," and the study on the Millennial reign of Christ to prove that one day, soon, I hope, that the Lord Jesus will literally reign in His Kingdom on the land of Israel. It has been refreshing indeed to read your lesson.

Please keep up the good work.

Alan

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On 16/09/2015, 00:24:24, LindaR said:

"Us spiritual Jews"?????????  Where in Scripture do you find that term?  Saved Gentiles do not become "spiritual" Jews!  

Many use Romans 2:28-29 to justify that saved Gentiles become "spiritual" Jews.  Salvation does not change one's ethnicity.  Saved Gentiles remain Gentiles and saved Jews remain Jews.  Gentiles have never become one of the tribes of the children of Israel.  However saved Jews and unsaved Jews, as physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, have always belonged to one of the tribes of the children of Israel.

There are 3 groups of peoples in Scripture: Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32)
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There are unsaved Jews, unsaved Gentiles and the Church of God, composed of saved Jews and Gentiles. 

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Body of Christ is one new man....no distinctions made in Christ:
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So how was Abraham saved?  By the law, by circumcision or by faith?

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On 9/15/2015, 7:24:24, LindaR said:

"Us spiritual Jews"?????????  Where in Scripture do you find that term?  Saved Gentiles do not become "spiritual" Jews!  

Many use Romans 2:28-29 to justify that saved Gentiles become "spiritual" Jews.  Salvation does not change one's ethnicity.  Saved Gentiles remain Gentiles and saved Jews remain Jews.  Gentiles have never become one of the tribes of the children of Israel.  However saved Jews and unsaved Jews, as physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, have always belonged to one of the tribes of the children of Israel.

There are 3 groups of peoples in Scripture: Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32)
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

There are unsaved Jews, unsaved Gentiles and the Church of God, composed of saved Jews and Gentiles. 

In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Body of Christ is one new man....no distinctions made in Christ:
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

No. Saved gentiles do not 'become' jews, but this reference you mention in Romans 2 is a picture of equality with jews according to the real circumcision.

Of the heart.

As for the rest of your verses? I applaud you for pointing out the single mindedness of God in salvation. The mind of God that states all are equal. Jew, gentile, and Israelite, and anyone else that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

All ARE, (not 'become'), the Israel of God.

And thus, all Israel will be saved.

Thank you.

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On Monday, September 14, 2015, Ronda said:

I agree with you for once "Invicta", but only about the pope being evil.  He openly claimed that the god of the muslims is the same God we worship.  We know that isn't true, as the bible reveals who God is to us, and it certainly is NOT the same god they worship! 

But here's where we part ways in agreement.  I don't agree with many of your other statements:

First you said you "believe that Christ's kingdom IS the church"   I don't agree.  Let's look at the parallel passages to Luke 9:27

Matthew 16: 27-28
27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."        28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

It doesn't make sense (to me) that the church could be the kingdom.  To me, it doesn't make grammatical sense and it doesn't make plain sense.

 

NEXT, I disagree with your understanding of the part of the passage saying "some standing here"

Notice, Jesus did NOT say there be some standing here right now, this very minute.... (the moment he was speaking)

However, if we look deeper we see "some standing here" means Jesus was referencing the very spot he was standing.

So there will be some people standing there (where? that same spot Jesus was standing) WHEN they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom. (I believe) He was referring to a future event wherein some would be standing there in that very spot and those same people would not die (taste of death) until they saw Jesus return (coming with His kingdom).

 I could go on further to state that I believe that since that very spot is in Israel, and the Jews were ousted from Israel for many centuries but have now returned to that land (in 1948)  that those people could be the ones to whom he was referring,  those who would see Jesus come in their lifetimes.  And also He did say SOME, He did not say EVERY.

I also believe there are many prophetic references to the Jews returning to the land of Israel in the old testament. 

I know full well that it is not your opinion, "Invicta".  However, I am also permitted to give my opinion and understanding of scripture here on this site as well.      If "the world" has it's way, then soon NONE of us will be able to talk openly about biblical matters without fear of legal ramifications.  I intend to use as much time as I can (God willing) and as long as I am physically capable to use my voice and hands to do so (God willing),  to study and fellowship with other Christians as well.  

 

If what you are saying is correct, then would this not mean that everyone in Jerusalem at that yet future date would need to be 'Born again'? If they were not born of God how then could they see or enter the kingdom?

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On Sunday, September 13, 2015, MountainChristian said:

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luke 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Us spiritual Jews do not become one of the tribes. But the physical Jews do belong to one of the tribes.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

It must be coming to earth because Jesus told us to pray for it. The earth would give the kingdom land. If this was a landless kingdom it would've been called the church. The church being the people and not the building or ground. The Catholics say that is Vatican City yet they don't believe Jesus will ever rule the earth from there.

Please share your :twocents:

I noticed that the translators have put a 'full stop' after the phrase 'Thy kingdom come'     does this mean that the following text could be understood to be a related but different event?

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49 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

No. Saved gentiles do not 'become' jews, but this reference you mention in Romans 2 is a picture of equality with jews according to the real circumcision.

Of the heart.

As for the rest of your verses? I applaud you for pointing out the single mindedness of God in salvation. The mind of God that states all are equal. Jew, gentile, and Israelite, and anyone else that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

All ARE, (not 'become'), the Israel of God.

And thus, all Israel will be saved.

Thank you.

Yes I Agree with you Genevapreacher, I think the term Jew and Israel are like almost every other term in scripture and so have an earthly reference and an heavenly one, or a natural and a spiritual one, a type and a real. Just like there is a 'Day' of man and there is 'The Lords Day' one is a shadow of the other,   'For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God'. Romans 2:28-29 Although 'For he is not a Jew...' this fellow actually is a literal Jew with natural Jewish blood and decent, he isnt a 'jew' in the important meaning of the word, not in the reality.

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7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Invicta,"

I notice that in such discussions as this, you like to bring forward the above verse - John 18:36

Concerning this verse I wish to ask you a question -- What is the meaning of the word "now" in the closing line of John 18:36?

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

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O

20 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

If what you are saying is correct, then would this not mean that everyone in Jerusalem at that yet future date would need to be 'Born again'? If they were not born of God how then could they see or enter the kingdom?

"Old-Pilgrim", yes, that is my understanding.  I believe that a future period of 7 years tribulation will occur. The bible refers to it as the "time of Jacob's trouble". During that time (which Daniel, Revelation, and others refer to) there will be many events transpire upon the entire world (not just the Jewish people). But there are specific things which will happen to Israel during that time... I believe 2/3rds of the Jewish people will die during that time, but 1/3 will survive through it and turn to Christ, and yes, at the end ALL (remaining remnant of Jews) will be saved.

Why do I believe that? Because that's what the bible (God's word says):

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Zechariah 13:
8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Joel 2:18 "Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
 

 

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36 minutes ago, Ronda said:

O

"Old-Pilgrim", yes, that is my understanding.  I believe that a future period of 7 years tribulation will occur. The bible refers to it as the "time of Jacob's trouble". During that time (which Daniel, Revelation, and others refer to) there will be many events transpire upon the entire world (not just the Jewish people). But there are specific things which will happen to Israel during that time... I believe 2/3rds of the Jewish people will die during that time, but 1/3 will survive through it and turn to Christ, and yes, at the end ALL (remaining remnant of Jews) will be saved.

Why do I believe that? Because that's what the bible (God's word says):

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Zechariah 13:
8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Joel 2:18 "Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
 

 

Rondah there might be some truth in the position you hold to, however;

Acts 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These verses quote from Joel in the context of the verses having been or being fulfilled. Also Have you ever meditated or pondered on how they (the state and the state church) used to use green wood when burning Christians or send out armies over large areas with free lenience to kill Christians, or cut the flesh from their lower Jaws before burning them,  a long slow torture was considered to be mercy, and kindness, giving the Christians more time to recant. Now I may be wrong, but to me that was 'GREAT TRIBULATION', and I have also heard that it was the Jesuits who formulated the doctrine of the seven year tribulation in order to 'hide' or 'cover' the truth of church history (the word 'hell' means 'to cover/hide' Revelation 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.). the term GREAT TRIBULATION is referring to earth, how great could Tribulation get for an individual or for an estimated 120 000 000 individuals at the hands of Rome? not to mention the rest since then!

notice hell follows death. The Death cult murders, then they cover it up.

 

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Those verses quoted in Joel have NOT been fulfilled (yet).  Neither has this one:

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
 

The time of Jacob's trouble/the tribulation is described in detail throughout the bible.  It is also referred to as a time so terrible there are no other times which can compare in the past nor will there be in the future a time so horrible.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."
 

God is very specific about the degree of tribulation being worse than we've ever seen. YES, we've seen past horrible tribulations upon Jewish and Christians both. However, as horrible as they were, the time described in Revelation (and elsewhere) is unique in that it will be the worst tribulation ever. It's ironic you brought out the verse you chose as an example... Revelation 6:8 describes a future event which will be the opening of the 4th seal.  Just a few verses later it described the 6th seal. 

Revelation 6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"
13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
 

So your theory of Revelation 6:8 being a past event doesn't make sense, if Rev. 6:8 has (supposedly) already happened, then the reasoning would follow that Revelation 6:14 has already (supposedly) happened. So let me ask you... When was that period of time when EVERY mountain and island were moved out of their places??? It is a future event. So horrible we cannot truly grasp. And the seal judgments are near the beginning! There will then be trumpet and vial/bowl judgments to come after that. 

 

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5 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

Just a heads up here fellas...Bro. David is 5 hours ahead of us here in the U.S.

I am sure he will get to it when he can.

And no, Alan, Pastor Markle has not hit the mark. Just show a fellow brother a little patience, please.

Yes, like 3 mods do take it out, where others use a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it.

Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue.

The important thing is 'what does Markle think it means?', which implies something of major importance.

Evidently.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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