Moderators Ukulelemike Posted September 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2015 To the OP: Yes, God is absolutely sovereign.But to make this mean that because of it, man is unable to have free will, is to take a step the Bible doesn't alloow for. Man HAS free will because God gave us free will, in His sovereignty. Clealry man has free will, even as the angels, apparently, have free will. If not, then the fall of Lucifer and the angels that followed him are all of God's perfect will. Adam and Eve's fall in Eden and the downfall of man, and each soul that ends up in hell, are part of God's perfect, sovereign will. It must be His will that some reject Him, that some burn forever, and are held accountable, even though they ahev not one iota of ability to make any other choices. God controls, and punishes man for doing as he has no will to do otherwise.No, God in His sovereignty, made His creation with a choice to do well or not, to follow or disobey. Some go one way, othes the other. Jim_Alaska and Ronda 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 The answer is simple, This is God basically saying "I didn't command them to do this, these are not thoughts I entertain,...", to use today's venacular.I'm still waiting for your explanation apart from free will in reference to the verses that I posted. The answer that you gave above doesn't truly address what the verses say; you side-stepped what the verses say with a faulty interpretation using "today's venacular". Yet at the same time, the answer that you gave supports free will.Since God is sovereign, but (as you pointed out) God didn't command them to do it, then why did they do it?Since God is sovereign, but (as you interpreted) God doesn't "entertain" those thoughts, then where did those thoughts come from?By your own answer, the only answer is that they did it of their own free will. The causal agent was self...not God.God didn't command them to do it, God didn't tell them to do it, and it never entered God's mind that they should do it. That's using today's venacular...not how you interpreted it.Knowing that you aren't King James only, I even looked to see how the verses read in some of the modern versions...and they give the same three points that the King James does...but they use more of "today's venacular".Just as you would assert that belief in free will leads to open theism (which I strongly disagree with), I would assert that your belief makes God the author of sin. Do you agree with that? Is sin God's fault?You would assert that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost; man has no part in it. Therefore, it is God who blinds man to salvation.I would assert that the Bible is clear on the subject...2 Corinthians 4:3-43 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.God says that it's Satan who blinds lost people...not God.You also assert that you have only come here to learn how "dispensationalists" view the Bible. However, while hiding under the guise of "learning", you are certainly pushing your own system of belief.You have mentioned that your interaction here with others has been dissapointing (or something to that effect). Not long after you joined (or started posting here), I distinctly remember warning you that this forum is opposed to Calvinism. Yet you paid no attention to the forum's stand, and you have continued to promote Calvinist doctrine...and you blame the people here for not being friendly enough when you are promoting views contrary to their views?It's fine though Leornard...you don't have to answer my questions. After all, you wanted to know how dispensationalists believe...and I'm not a dispensationalist. Jim_Alaska 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alimantado Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't see how you are doing damage. But I think it's evident that you don't fully understand the concept of God sovereignty, or you don't fully give God credit for his work in man's life. I don't understand how anyone cannot give God glory fully, where He deserves it. Rather than give man partial credit for something that God clearly has done.The point I was trying to make just then wasn't that I was doing 'damage' to anyone's position--rather I was saying that in these kinds of discussions there's a tendency for folk to just bombard others with their arguments and verses without waiting to really discuss any of them. I'd say what you're doing with me now is an example: you've just put to me a new argument about the Israelites when you've still to answer a question I asked you a week-and-a-half ago.I know you've said you'll answer when you get time--that's fine, but I was just responding to your dishing up another new argument when there's stuff already on the table. OLD fashioned preacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old-Pilgrim Posted September 8, 2015 Members Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't see how you are doing damage. But I think it's evident that you don't fully understand the concept of God sovereignty, or you don't fully give God credit for his work in man's life. I don't understand how anyone cannot give God glory fully, where He deserves it. Rather than give man partial credit for something that God clearly has done.Leonard,Do you believe that God makes men sin? Do you blame God when you sin? Don't you credit yourself with the ability to fail or fall short? Can't you see the futility of your position? Ronda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old-Pilgrim Posted September 9, 2015 Members Share Posted September 9, 2015 Leonard: I think if you are free to ponder what it means when God gave man dominion, you will surly come to the conclusion that dominion must by necessity include power to exercise ones own God given authority, it is free will within God's authority. God gave man a space and the rule over it, sort of like as husbandsman, Mt 21:33 Im sorry, but I am not following you in this parable. I am not sure what you are getting at in trying to explain your view point.I used to believe in determinism, until I noticed a contradiction in Scripture, then another, then another, something like dominoes. A false theology is stubborn because it becomes an Idol which stands in the place of truth, very blinding. I believed that error for some twenty years, before the light of Scripture started to shine through.As for Pr 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? One of the the first things that the Lord does is wakes us up so we can't sleep, some time latter he makes us sleep so we can't stay awake, he has may other more subtle ways in which he sends us or sends us not, such as our measure of intelligence, of imagination, inspiration, fear, dread, He motivates by His Spirit, or by His hand or by his rod, or by any of his many types of angels, but our life is real, we are responsible to believe and to do the right thing.I believe this is a misinterpretation of the proverb. We are directed by the Lord, because we don't know what God has for us, we don't know the future. What his plans are; a NT cross reference is James 4:13-14In the parable Mt 21:33 a householder,(The LORD) had a vineyard, and let (in Charge put) it out to husbandmen (us).I must say it did kind of annoy me that my 20 years of study led me to the discovery that the Bible message could be understood by any child or by an old lady who has no PHD, My problem now is how do I explain something so simple?The Lord might take you past a cake stall, His word says 'don't steal', are you saying that he is then going to make a thief steal a cake?We don't know the future, God does, even though we haven't yet decided what we are and aren't going to do yet when presented with the choicies which God the LORD shall set before us. We have a litle streinght by which to exercise our will. Our choice, yet he knows already, so He is smart as wel as being the suprme Boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 10, 2015 I'm still waiting for your explanation apart from free will in reference to the verses that I posted. The answer that you gave above doesn't truly address what the verses say; you side-stepped what the verses say with a faulty interpretation using "today's venacular". Yet at the same time, the answer that you gave supports free will.Since God is sovereign, but (as you pointed out) God didn't command them to do it, then why did they do it? Because men are sinful. Since God is sovereign, but (as you interpreted) God doesn't "entertain" those thoughts, then where did those thoughts come from? Again, men are sinful. It doesn't come from God. By your own answer, the only answer is that they did it of their own free will. The causal agent was self...not God. Man is only free to sin, becasue we are sinners, But even then God is still sovereign over that.God didn't command them to do it, God didn't tell them to do it, and it never entered God's mind that they should do it. That's using today's venacular...not how you interpreted it.Knowing that you aren't King James only, I even looked to see how the verses read in some of the modern versions...and they give the same three points that the King James does...but they use more of "today's venacular".Just as you would assert that belief in free will leads to open theism (which I strongly disagree with), I would assert that your belief makes God the author of sin. Do you agree with that? Is sin God's fault? No, men are sinful. we are corrupted due to Adams sin.You would assert that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost; man has no part in it. Therefore, it is God who blinds man to salvation. No,once again, men are sinful, we are condemned already. Its God who saves.....I would assert that the Bible is clear on the subject...2 Corinthians 4:3-43 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.God says that it's Satan who blinds lost people...not God. again, they are sinners, slaves to sin. It takes the Lord's doing to rescue them if He has chosen them.You also assert that you have only come here to learn how "dispensationalists" view the Bible. However, while hiding under the guise of "learning", you are certainly pushing your own system of belief.You have mentioned that your interaction here with others has been dissapointing (or something to that effect). Not long after you joined (or started posting here), I distinctly remember warning you that this forum is opposed to Calvinism. Yet you paid no attention to the forum's stand, and you have continued to promote Calvinist doctrine...and you blame the people here for not being friendly enough when you are promoting views contrary to their views?It's fine though Leornard...you don't have to answer my questions. After all, you wanted to know how dispensationalists believe...and I'm not a dispensationalist. I know what you believe, I just wanted to interact. I could go to other forums, but I chose this one. The point I was trying to make just then wasn't that I was doing 'damage' to anyone's position--rather I was saying that in these kinds of discussions there's a tendency for folk to just bombard others with their arguments and verses without waiting to really discuss any of them. I'd say what you're doing with me now is an example: you've just put to me a new argument about the Israelites when you've still to answer a question I asked you a week-and-a-half ago.I know you've said you'll answer when you get time--that's fine, but I was just responding to your dishing up another new argument when there's stuff already on the table.To be honest, I kind of lost track of our other conversations, with real life going on. I'm sorry you think that I am avoiding you, or your questions. that is not my intention. From my perspective, I have to answer many people hear, you all just have to focus on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 10, 2015 In the parable Mt 21:33 a householder,(The LORD) had a vineyard, and let (in Charge put) it out to husbandmen (us). No, the parable is about the Pharisees, read the context of the passage, most of the chapter. It's Jesus confronting the Pharisees because of the Pharisees issue with His teaching and growing influence.I must say it did kind of annoy me that my 20 years of study led me to the discovery that the Bible message could be understood by any child or by an old lady who has no PHD, My problem now is how do I explain something so simple? And I find this rather insulting that you would say something like this about a brother in the Lord, especially when you took the parable out of context, I was puzzled where you were going with itThe Lord might take you past a cake stall, His word says 'don't steal', are you saying that he is then going to make a thief steal a cake? God doesn't make a man sin, That doesn't emanate from Him. it's already in a mans heart to do it anyway. Whenever we sin, God still uses it for His purpose. You know, it"s like a "you meant it for evil, God meant it for good" kind of thing.We don't know the future, God does, even though we haven't yet decided what we are and aren't going to do yet when presented with the choicies which God the LORD shall set before us. We have a litle streinght by which to exercise our will. Our choice, yet he knows already, so He is smart as wel as being the suprme Boss. God alredy know what we are going to do, even our choices are decided. Proverbs 16:9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Leonard,Do you believe that God makes men sin? No, we are sinners. God is not the author of sin, It is solely from usDo you blame God when you sin? absolutely not Don't you credit yourself with the ability to fail or fall short? I can do nothing that is outside of the Lord's will, When i sin, it's all on me.Can't you see the futility of your position? I see that my position is Scriptural, taught throughout Scripture, held to by the church for the last 2,000 years. Futility would not be a word that comes to mind in this conversation, so, no. To the OP: Yes, God is absolutely sovereign.But to make this mean that because of it, man is unable to have free will, is to take a step the Bible doesn't alloow for. Man HAS free will because God gave us free will, in His sovereignty. Clealry man has free will, even as the angels, apparently, have free will. If not, then the fall of Lucifer and the angels that followed him are all of God's perfect will. Adam and Eve's fall in Eden and the downfall of man, and each soul that ends up in hell, are part of God's perfect, sovereign will. It must be His will that some reject Him, that some burn forever, and are held accountable, even though they ahev not one iota of ability to make any other choices. God controls, and punishes man for doing as he has no will to do otherwise.No, God in His sovereignty, made His creation with a choice to do well or not, to follow or disobey. Some go one way, othes the other.Mike you have asked often, now let me ask you, can you find free will in Scripture? Edited September 10, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alimantado Posted September 10, 2015 Members Share Posted September 10, 2015 I think it's evident that you don't fully understand the concept of God sovereignty, or you don't fully give God credit for his work in man's life.To be honest, I kind of lost track of our other conversations, with real life going on. I'm sorry you think that I am avoiding you, or your questions. that is not my intention. From my perspective, I have to answer many people hear, you all just have to focus on me.Fair enough. If you do get a chance to expand on the general statements you are making, feel free to give me a shout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old-Pilgrim Posted September 10, 2015 Members Share Posted September 10, 2015 >>>In the parable Mt 21:33 a householder,(The LORD) had a vineyard, and let (in Charge put) it out to husbandmen (us). No, the parable is about the Pharisees, read the context of the passage, most of the chapter. It's Jesus confronting the Pharisees because of the Pharisees issue with His teaching and growing influence.I must say it did kind of annoy me that my 20 years of study led me to the discovery that the Bible message could be understood by any child or by an old lady who has no PHD, My problem now is how do I explain something so simple? And I find this rather insulting that you would say something like this about a brother in the Lord, especially when you took the parable out of context, I was puzzled where you were going with itThe Lord might take you past a cake stall, His word says 'don't steal', are you saying that he is then going to make a thief steal a cake? God doesn't make a man sin, That doesn't emanate from Him. it's already in a mans heart to do it anyway. Whenever we sin, God still uses it for His purpose. You know, it"s like a "you meant it for evil, God meant it for good" kind of thing.We don't know the future, God does, even though we haven't yet decided what we are and aren't going to do yet when presented with the choicies which God the LORD shall set before us. We have a litle streinght by which to exercise our will. Our choice, yet he knows already, so He is smart as wel as being the suprme Boss. God alredy know what we are going to do, even our choices are decided. Proverbs 16:9<<<Hi, I was using the parable not to try expound but simply to say if God can give them free will to do or not to do his will, then he can for us, we are human like them.>>And I find this rather insulting that you would say something like this about a brother in the Lord<< say what? I was the only person implamented in this statement. Intalectuals complicate and are in danger of disanuling the masage.If God determined al things then he also determined whats in your heart.Our choicies arent decided, they have got paramiters to hem them in, but we have a certain scope for good or ill.Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Strong's Greek Dictionary4309. proorizoSearch for G4309 in KJVSLproorizw proorizo pro-or-id'-zofrom 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance,[ i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.???]See Greek 4253See Greek 3724Strong's Greek Dictionary4253. proSearch for G4253 in KJVSLpro pro proa primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations.Strong's Greek Dictionary3724. horizoSearch for G3724 in KJVSLorizw horizo hor-id'-zofrom 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain.See Greek 3725Strong's Greek Dictionary3725. horionSearch for G3725 in KJVSLorion horion hor'-ee-onneuter of a derivative of an apparently primary horos (a bound or limit); a boundary-line, i.e. (by implication) a frontier (region):--borderAnd to one of your other posts 'fre wil in scripture? There are countless numbers of scripture (although you need to apply the normal rules of English, thats what I mean by simple, here is one irefutable example of fre will; Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!God WOULD man WOULD NOT. please tell me if my understanding of English is lacking. I am amazed that I could not see this for so many years. sory again, my keyboard isn't working properly, it won't do double leters. :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 11, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Hi, I was using the parable not to try expound but simply to say if God can give them free will to do or not to do his will, then he can for us, we are human like them.That is not what the parable is about, that is pure eisegesis >>And I find this rather insulting that you would say something like this about a brother in the Lord<< say what? I was the only person implamented (implemented)in this statement. Intalectuals(intellectuals) complicate and are in danger of disanuling(dis-annulling) the masage.(message) If God determined al things then he also determined whats in your heart., Our choicies arent decided, they have got paramiters to hem them in, but we have a certain scope for good or ill. But not unbelievers, they cannot please God.Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Strong's Greek Dictionary4309. proorizoSearch for G4309 in KJVSLproorizw proorizo pro-or-id'-zofrom 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance,[ i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.???]See Greek 4253See Greek 3724Strong's Greek Dictionary4253. proSearch for G4253 in KJVSLpro pro proa primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations.Strong's Greek Dictionary3724. horizoSearch for G3724 in KJVSLorizw horizo hor-id'-zofrom 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain.See Greek 3725Strong's Greek Dictionary3725. horionSearch for G3725 in KJVSLorion horion hor'-ee-onneuter of a derivative of an apparently primary horos (a bound or limit); a boundary-line, i.e. (by implication) a frontier (region):--borderAnd to one of your other posts 'fre wil in scripture? There are countless numbers of scripture (although you need to apply the normal rules of English, thats what I mean by simple, here is one irefutable example of fre will; Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!God WOULD man WOULD NOT. please tell me if my understanding of English is lacking. I am amazed that I could not see this for so many years.sory again, my keyboard isn't working properly, it won't do double leters. :-/Thats ok; God calling out using His perceptive will is not the same as God decretive will. Given instruction does not imply capacity to follow... Edited September 12, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted September 11, 2015 Members Share Posted September 11, 2015 Leonard, you're all over the place friend...I see it as God in total control of man in all aspects of life and beyond....yet you assert that man's sin is man's doing?Again, men are sinful. It doesn't come from God. Are you asserting now that though God is in TOTAL control of man in ALL aspects of life and beyond, this only applies to those who are saved? Are you asserting that "sinners" have free will since sin is man's doing? Is God sovereign...end of story, or is God sovereign only in relation to the saved?If sin doesn't come from God (as you say), then why do men commit sin? If sin doesn't come from God, then why did Lucifer sin? Both Lucifer and man were created without sin in them...yet they sinned. How did this happen if God is sovereign and in total control in all aspects? How did sin start if sin doesn't come from God? wretched and heartstrings 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 11, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Leonard, you're all over the place friend......yet you assert that man's sin is man's doing? that is exactly what I am saying Are you asserting now that though God is in TOTAL control of man in ALL aspects of life and beyond, this only applies to those who are saved? No, both believers and non alike. Remember men are sinful. We are born sinner.Are you asserting that "sinners" have free will since sin is man's doing? Believers have free will only to sin, because this is their nature to sin, remember whoever is in the flesh cannot please God Is God sovereign...end of story, or is God sovereign only in relation to the saved?God is sovereign over allIf sin doesn't come from God (as you say), then why do men commit sin?because we are born sinners. If sin doesn't come from God, then why did Lucifer sin? Both Lucifer and man were created without sin in them...yet they sinned.Good question, something I struggle with time to time. Because the only one that is perfect is God.How did this happen if God is sovereign and in total control in all aspects? How did sin start if sin doesn't come from God?so I would ask you here then do you think God is not sovereign over the fall of Adam and Lucifers rebellion? I think so, part of His plan of redemption. Sorry NN, did this from my phone Edited September 12, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 12, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 12, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leonard Sylvia Posted September 12, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 12, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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