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Question About Preterism


Ukulelemike

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You are an expert at asking questions, seemingly all intended to question one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the one in & through & by whom all God's declared purposes are centred. 

Instead, your focus is on national Israel, whether or nor they are obedient to the law & covenants, & the literal fulfilment in some future dispensation. 

Your question about Zec. 14 is clearly intended to embarrass me, as you do not believe it has been fulfilled, & will be fulfilled in the tribulation you teach that will occur after the supposed rapture.

Asking about the last chapter of 14 is unreasonable. The prophecy of Zechariah (with Haggai) concerns the rebuilding of the temple & Jerusalem, as prophesied  by Daniel & recorded in Ezra. Many of the specific prophecies directly relate to Jesus & particularly to the final week of his ministry. And some of these are cryptic, & without the inspired references & precedents we would hesitate to interpret them. 

Guided by NT interpretation, prophecies relating to the high priest, Joshua,clearly relate to his namesake, Jesus. Less obviously, prophecies relating to the governor, Zerubbabel, who was next in the kingly line from David, relate to King Jesus. Prophecies concerning Jerusalem as towns without walls relate to the heavenly Jerusalem inhabited by the believing people of God. 

Regarding the rebuilding prophecies, we see Zerubbabel building the temple in the power of the "my spirit" by grace, grace. That is a prophecy of the spread of the church, the living temple, by the grace Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. 

We see the baptismal fountain opened, the people looking at the one they pierced and a third of the people coming through the AD 70 destruction, calling on Jesus' name & owning him as "my God." 

When we come to Zec. 14,we see Jerusalem besieged by all nations. While earthly Jerusalem was besieged & destroyed , the Jerusalem of prophecy is a spiritual, heavenly city & its earthly citizens are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. That city has been expanding since Pentecost as "towns without walls" but always suffering persecution. The vile persecutions depicted in the opening verses are similar to the reports of the activities is ISIS against the church in the Middle East. We see God, there, with his suffering people, supporting them by his indwelling Holy Spirit, and strengthening them to be faithful unto death, & vindicating them. We could also understand the account as the persecution suffered in Europe at the hands of the RC Inquisition. Persecution goes on. 

Happily also, some nations did recognise the Gospel & official recognised the Christian faith, allowing its citizens to worship freely. 

When the present millennium draws to a close we may expect all hell to break loose when Satan is freed for his little season. Could it be beginning now?

Jesus' injunction stands until he returns in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE:

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 

That's all well and good, except it doesn't really answer the question. Zech 14 is written so plainly, we can't just set it aside as allegory and catyclismic poetry-there are some very clear and literal things written which we can't just lay aside as  somehow having been spiritually accomplished. There is a very literal battle laid out here, between God physically present, and the armies of the world. In 70AD, the army was, as far as I know, just Rome, not the world, one army, not "armies". No splitting of the Mount of Olives. We certainly don't see anyone going from year to year to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles, nor did we see God rescuing Jerusalem, rather, we saw the destruction of it. The churches are NOT Israel, not spiritually or literally-we are the church(es), Christianity has not supplanted Israel.

Zechariah 14 indicates an ending of persecution against Israel and Jerusalem, and a beginning of great peace and prosperity for those who follw the Lord, and again, we have seen exactly the opposite of that over the last 2,000 years. Things have not gotten better, but have grown progressively worse. Both believers AND israel are persecuted by others, more and more-this is hardly the new earth, or even the reign of Jesus Christ with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations. I have said it before, and I will say it again, if this is the promised reign of Messiah, it is far more a disappointment than the Bible made it out to be.

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I'm so thankful the Lord led me to this site.  God clearly wants us to study and not just read.  Comparing scripture with scripture is key to understanding many verses and topics , and understanding to whom the particular verse was written to, what event/time frame the verse was referencing, and regarding which dispensation also helps us to learn and grow.  At first, I was "put off" by the views of non-IFB members.  Now, after having been here a few months, I'm glad they are here to give their views on various verses/topics... it actually strengthens my understanding of many particular verses/topics when they often have answers that make no sense!

UkuleleMike: I agree with your last post! The mount of Olives did not split in ad70, etc.  satan is working right now and not bound up yet (as 1st Peter 5:8 tells us) "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

Alan, you gave many specific books/chapters/verses of the bible to show that none of the following prophesies and promises were fulfilled at Calvary. in 70 a.d.,  nor in the New Testament Church Age.  It's also very easy to understand that the scriptures you listed are speaking directly about Israel and the Jews.

Zechariah 8:13  "And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."
I wonder how a person could apply this verse and the entire chapter to anyone other than Israel???

And if there could be ANY DOUBT: Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."
Who? The Jew! When? Not at calvary, Not in 70AD, and obviously not in the present church age. 

When I did get a reply for this from "covenanter" (and I truly do thank you for the reply "covenanter"), part of the reply was this: "In glory, in the NH&NE, Abraham's seed including all nations on earth, will enjoy the covenant promises for all eternity. "
Which I must say certainly does not fit with the scripture Alan referenced nor does it fit with Zech. 8:23.  I cannot see how he (and others of this view) can not see that "a Jew" means "a Jew" in this verse as well as the others referenced by Alan.

And I do heartily thank those who answer their viewpoints, because it only serves to stregthen the understanding I already had. I'm not posting this to deride any person on here... I am thankful for every participant who enters their view on scripture (whether or not it matches my own). I enjoy studying the word of God, and forums like this truly help in my studies.

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Concerning Zechariah 14 Covenanter wrote, "Asking about the last chapter of 14 is unreasonable. The prophecy of Zechariah (with Haggai) concerns the rebuilding of the temple & Jerusalem, as prophesied  by Daniel & recorded in Ezra. Many of the specific prophecies directly relate to Jesus & particularly to the final week of his ministry. And some of these are cryptic, & without the inspired references & precedents we would hesitate to interpret them."

Brethren,

To our Preterist friends it is not reasonable nor possible to understand Zechariah 14 and the other propheceis concerning the nation of Israel and the coming of the Lord Jesus in His glory. In fact, Covenanter plainly says that these prophecies are, "cryptic." In other words, the Preterist is in the dark spiritully. This is exactly what I said in my Revelation study on Revelation 22:16 and 17. To the Preterist the book of Revelation is a, "sealed book." http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=12 

To know the proper interpretation of Zechariah is reasonable, of the Lord, and is easy for the person who simply believes the Bible, and has the spiritual discernment to rightly divide the scriptures to understand. The problem is a spiriutal problem not a mental problem. The prophecies of Zechariah chapter 14 and chapter 8, and the other prophecies of Haggai, et tal, will be literally fulfulled as written in the book of Revelation.

The Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the prophecies of Zechariah chapter 14 and 8 and the other related prophetic passages of the prophets when the Preterists comes to Him for answers instead of the false teachers of this world.

The Lord Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 The reason why all of the prophecies given to the Jews are "cryptic" to the Preterist is a spiritual problem.

Alan 

 

 

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I'm so thankful the Lord led me to this site.  God clearly wants us to study and not just read.  Comparing scripture with scripture is key to understanding many verses and topics , and understanding to whom the particular verse was written to, what event/time frame the verse was referencing, and regarding which dispensation also helps us to learn and grow.  At first, I was "put off" by the views of non-IFB members.  Now, after having been here a few months, I'm glad they are here to give their views on various verses/topics... it actually strengthens my understanding of many particular verses/topics when they often have answers that make no sense!

UkuleleMike: I agree with your last post! The mount of Olives did not split in ad70, etc.  satan is working right now and not bound up yet (as 1st Peter 5:8 tells us) "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

Alan, you gave many specific books/chapters/verses of the bible to show that none of the following prophesies and promises were fulfilled at Calvary. in 70 a.d.,  nor in the New Testament Church Age.  It's also very easy to understand that the scriptures you listed are speaking directly about Israel and the Jews.

Zechariah 8:13  "And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."
I wonder how a person could apply this verse and the entire chapter to anyone other than Israel???

And if there could be ANY DOUBT: Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."
Who? The Jew! When? Not at calvary, Not in 70AD, and obviously not in the present church age. 

When I did get a reply for this from "covenanter" (and I truly do thank you for the reply "covenanter"), part of the reply was this: "In glory, in the NH&NE, Abraham's seed including all nations on earth, will enjoy the covenant promises for all eternity. "
Which I must say certainly does not fit with the scripture Alan referenced nor does it fit with Zech. 8:23.  I cannot see how he (and others of this view) can not see that "a Jew" means "a Jew" in this verse as well as the others referenced by Alan.

And I do heartily thank those who answer their viewpoints, because it only serves to stregthen the understanding I already had. I'm not posting this to deride any person on here... I am thankful for every participant who enters their view on scripture (whether or not it matches my own). I enjoy studying the word of God, and forums like this truly help in my studies.

From the "Comments" thread:

Ian:  Generally OT prophecy is best understood by its fulfilment, particularly in the life & ministry of Jesus, his saving work, & the Gospel resulting from the saving work, therefore read the NT to understand the OT;

 

As I [Ian] understand Bro Scott,

He sees OT promises & prophecies specifically relating to the earthly nation of Israel, & as they were not fulfilled before Messiah came, & the nation rejected Messiah & the Apostolic Gospel, & are not being fulfilled now in the present nation of Israel, there must be a future dispensation when all the OT prophecies happen literally. 

That requires a gap in the 70 weeks, re-establishment of Israel as a Jewish nation, rebuilding the temple, & then destroying it all again in the 70th week, after which the surviving Israelites will believe in Jesus Christ who will reign over them as a mortal people, on earth, in person, for 1,000 years. 

The present Gospel age is thus in effect a gap in prophetic revelation between weeks 69 & 70 during which God is not dealing with Israel as a nation, but mainly the Gentiles, & any Jews who do repent & believe in Jesus Christ.

[deleted]

Brother Day,

Although I myself would add more details, and although I would not claim that all of these things are taught specifically in and by Daniel 9:24-27, and although a few of the specifics are not exactly correct to my position, the above was indeed a fair "brief summary" of my position -- all except the parenthetical note at the end of the summary. 

===============

My summary of the prophecy of Zechariah, not just the last chapter, is on the principle emboldened above. Brother Scott agrees that my understanding of his position is a fair "brief summary." 

As a scientist & technical consultant, I have always sought to say what I am saying before I say it in detail. You will see that in my sermon in the "Everlasting Covenant" thread. 

========

The objections to my reply to you concern my contention:

that much of OT prophecy was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus in his life & saving ministry, & is being fulfilled in this Gospel age; Luke 24:25-27, 44-48, 

that the prophecies concerning Israel were & are fulfilled by the people of Israel who came to repentance & faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah; Acts 3:13-26

those prophecies counted in all nations on earth  (all families) according to the promise to Abraham, Isaac & Israel; Gen. 12:1-3, 22:18, Acts 3:25 

that the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ put themselves out of the covenant relationship, in effect becoming spiritual Gentiles; Acts 3:22-23

that people of all tribes (of Israel) & all nations are welcome by the Gospel, and that only those who respond receive eternal life & have a glorious, blessed eternal future. Mat. 28:19-20, Mark 16:15-16, Rev. 5:9-10,

that all believers, regardless of ethnicity, are in a full new covenant relationship with God, & are considered to be "Israel" & "Jews" & "the circumcised" in the sight of God; Rom. 2:28-29, Deu. 30:6, Phil. 3:3

that the wrath of God against those of Israel who rejected their Messiah was completed in AD 70, & that since then they have been on the same basis as other nations - individual sinners for whom Christ died, who are saved by repentance & faith; 1 Thes. 2:14-16, Mat. 23:33-36, 24:34

as repentant sinners from Israel & the nations are one people of God in Christ, one body, they are not under the old covenant laws & rituals, & so are not recognisable as Jews, but as Christians, aka the church; Acts 2:27, 11:26

 I do NOT believe that we are living in a 2,000+ year gap in the purposes of God. I believe that in the present Gospel age God is saving sinners & welcoming them into his eternal kingdom. The next great event of prophecy will be the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory to raise & judge the dead, and welcome believers into glory, & condemn sinners to hell. 

I do not know if there will yet be a great revival of Abraham's natural descendants. I'm not convinced Romans 11 teaches that - what it does teach is that if they want to be graffed back, they must abide not still in unbelief. We should still pray for the peace of Jerusalem - peace with God by faith in Jesus.

I believe therefore that OT prophecy can & should be studied for its application to us in this present Gospel age as we preach Christ to sinners, & encourage believers in their lives & service.

 

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Covenanter: I was going to write a long post about the reasons why I disagree with your viewpoint... but since I have read MANY of the past studies, I see it has already been done, quite often, and by several people.

Just one of the many opposing viewpoints is in Zechariah 8:23 "a Jew" means "a Jew", it hasn't happened YET and it WILL happen in the future. To subscribe to the viewpoint you attempt to make- I would have to believe at least 1 or 2 erroneous theories: 1. that in Zech 8:23 it already happened- (it has NOT yet happened), or 2: that the words "a Jew" would mean any saved person (since you believe the saved replace Israel and you believe the saved will receive the promises God made specifically the Israel).  Sorry... that's not what the scripture says. 

We could debate ad nauseum about each verse and each point...  But let me just reiterate what I already said, in essence:  Reading the viewpoints from a preterist, only serves to STRENGTHEN my own viewpoint! As in some of the verses I mentioned above, to have a preterist view would mean I would have to make null and void the actual word of God and I won't do that!  It makes no sense at all (to me). Even to attempt that line of reasoning I would have to twist or omit God's word and I won't do that! I believe God's word over man's word. 

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Dear Mr. Day,  I certainly did check the scripture you referenced, and it's why I made my last post... stating that I believe many others have refuted your "idea" of what those verses mean in past studies here.  God in fact DID make a NEW way for US (the saved) through Jesus Christ on the cross at calvary.  BUT He also made an OLD covenant with Israel before that.  God keeps His promises!  He made many promises to us for this present church age and for OUR future, but he also made many promises to Israel and God does not go back on His word, (Numbers 23:13). God does not lie!!!  And many of those promises he made directly to Israel (not the church) as were referenced in past posts here. And many have not YET been fulfilled.  I do not doubt one bit that God will, in fact, keep His promises to Israel at a future time.  We are living in the "age of grace" whereby God gave His son Jesus to pay for our sins (1st John 4:10) IF we accept His free gift of salvation.  He dealt entirely different with Israel in the OT days, it was a different dispensation, a different period of time wherein God had a different plan for them.  

To be honest, we should not be proud or boastful of our salvation... we should thank God every day that He allowed us to be grafted in! Romans 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

WHY did we get this opportunity? One reason is to provoke Israel to jealousy, God is not done with Israel... right now we are in an age where Israel is "in part blind" and cannot see the truth that Jesus is the way, truth, life.

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Why do you suppose the word UNTIL is in that verse? The current dispensation is the church age/age of grace and during that time both Jews and Gentiles are being saved through the atoning blood of Jesus.  When that time period is over, and the age of grace/age of the church is over, then God will again turn His attention back to Israel.  

I do not wish to be rude or discourteous... I hope you won't be upset when I tell you that I pray for you often! You are not likely to "change my mind"  and maybe you feel the same way towards me and other here...  but to be honest, I just cannot understand HOW you believe what you believe, when the scriptures referenced throughout this entire topic (preterism) seems so clear to me.  I'm not trying to ridicule you, really I'm not.  I just don't understand how you can't "see it".

 

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I think the New Covenat is for Israel and the Gentiles, both are to become the Church through faith in Christ, Israel is symbolised as the Body of Christ, the Gentiles are symbolised as the Bride of Christ, the two shall be as one. any prophises to Israel future of the rapture must be to those who inherit the earth, the meek, but not God or heaven in the new Creation. But I'm not goingto argue about after the rapture when we should be engaged more on how to enter the straight gate and how to show others the way.

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As I understand it, ful preterism was made up by Jesuits to draw the atention away from Rome and its manifest evil, and therfore it is no surprise that it doesent make sense.

Not sure that's true. The Reformers & other persecuted Christians saw Rome as the false church in Revelation. The Jesuits therefore took up the Preterist understanding of Revelation as being written before AD 70 & therefore prophesying the final rebellion & destruction of the Jewish state. 

Full Preterism teaches that the second coming occurred in AD 70, which is not RC teaching, nor mine. 

My position is that Revelation was written before AD 70, & the prophecies do relate to the final rebellion & destruction of the Jewish state, & that Jesus was active in that destruction of his enemies who rejected him, as he prophesied during his final week on earth. We still look forward to his return in glory to raise the dead, & judge the wicked, and bring into being the NH&NE. 

Revelation is still relevant to the church down the ages in the war against evil, principalities & powers, though some of the prophecies may have passed the warfare continues with different enemies in each generation - the Roman Empire, the RC church, Islam & the various antichristian movements of our generation - as we live in present "history." 

The parable of the husbandmen - Mat. 21:33-46 - points to a coming for judgement of this generation of Israel in AD 70: 

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Sadly some of the Reformers took up Rome's mantle & persecuted Jews & independent Christians, particularly anabaptists. 

All persecution is wrong - we have a Gospel for the world. We should note that the self curse of the Jews - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat. 27:25  is cancelled by the Gospel - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

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*Wow. What a slam-fest.*

I believe the 'Covenant Theology' ways also.

If I could quote my Bible it would be much easier to explain where I get my beliefs from, as the KJB adds words, in and out of italics, to make this section of the scriptures 'look' futurist.

I am not saying the KJB is in error, I am just saying that some people believe a 'preterist form' of doctrine based upon older texts of scriptures and upon commentators of hundreds of years ago and their views upon the text they translated.

It's not as difficult as some here seem to make it be. If one would take the time to step out of everyone else's box on what the 'traditional modern thought' is, we might get some where with this subject. Stop being so condemning to something you obviously don't know about. Everybody is asking questions, and that implies you don't know, yet you act as if you do.

Y'all sound like me when I get 'in a mood'. ;)

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I like how our pastor approaches this issue.

He looks at what's put forth from a particular viewpoint and places all the things that clearly have or could have happened in accord with that view in one column. Then he does the same with things that seem to have not taken place. Then looks at what's left and how those things are dealt with by the various views.

Considering how the most learned men of Scripture had some, much or virtually all of their viewpoint on the First Coming in error, it's likely we don't have the Second Coming clearly understood either. It could turn out to be a combination of two or more views having some points right, but not all.

I know my leanings on the matter, but it's not worth battling over or separating over. The main point is obeying Scripture and being found living for the Lord and ready for His appearance whenever He does return.

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You are an expert at asking questions, seemingly all intended to question one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the one in & through & by whom all God's declared purposes are centred. 

Instead, your focus is on national Israel, whether or nor they are obedient to the law & covenants, & the literal fulfilment in some future dispensation. 

Your question about Zec. 14 is clearly intended to embarrass me, as you do not believe it has been fulfilled, & will be fulfilled in the tribulation you teach that will occur after the supposed rapture.

Asking about the last chapter of 14 is unreasonable. The prophecy of Zechariah (with Haggai) concerns the rebuilding of the temple & Jerusalem, as prophesied  by Daniel & recorded in Ezra. Many of the specific prophecies directly relate to Jesus & particularly to the final week of his ministry. And some of these are cryptic, & without the inspired references & precedents we would hesitate to interpret them. 

Guided by NT interpretation, prophecies relating to the high priest, Joshua,clearly relate to his namesake, Jesus - Zec. 3. Less obviously, prophecies relating to the governor, Zerubbabel, who was next in the kingly line from David, relate to King Jesus - Zec. 4. Prophecies concerning Jerusalem as towns without walls relate to the heavenly Jerusalem inhabited by the believing people of God - John 4, Gal. 4, Heb. 12. 

Regarding the rebuilding prophecies, we see Zerubbabel building the temple in the power of the "my spirit" by grace, grace Zec. 4. That is a prophecy of the spread of the church, the living temple, by the grace of Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. 

We see the baptismal fountain opened, the people looking at the one they pierced and a third of the people coming through the AD 70 destruction, calling on Jesus' name & owning him as "my God." 

When we come to Zec. 14,we see Jerusalem besieged by all nations. While earthly Jerusalem was besieged & destroyed , the Jerusalem of prophecy is a spiritual, heavenly city & its earthly citizens are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. That city has been expanding since Pentecost as "towns without walls" but always suffering persecution. The vile persecutions depicted in the opening verses are similar to the reports of the activities is ISIS against the church in the Middle East. We see God, there, with his suffering people, supporting them by his indwelling Holy Spirit, and strengthening them to be faithful unto death, & vindicating them. We could also understand the account as the persecution suffered in Europe at the hands of the RC Inquisition. Persecution goes on. 

Happily also, some nations did recognise the Gospel & official recognised the Christian faith, allowing its citizens to worship freely. 

When the present millennium draws to a close we may expect all hell to break loose when Satan is freed for his little season. Could it be beginning now?

Jesus' injunction stands until he returns in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE:

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 

I had added some references above.

That's all well and good, except it doesn't really answer the question. Zech 14 is written so plainly, we can't just set it aside as allegory and catyclismic poetry-there are some very clear and literal things written which we can't just lay aside as  somehow having been spiritually accomplished. There is a very literal battle laid out here, between God physically present, and the armies of the world. In 70AD, the army was, as far as I know, just Rome, not the world, one army, not "armies". No splitting of the Mount of Olives. We certainly don't see anyone going from year to year to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles, nor did we see God rescuing Jerusalem, rather, we saw the destruction of it. The churches are NOT Israel, not spiritually or literally-we are the church(es), Christianity has not supplanted Israel.

Zechariah 14 indicates an ending of persecution against Israel and Jerusalem, and a beginning of great peace and prosperity for those who follw the Lord, and again, we have seen exactly the opposite of that over the last 2,000 years. Things have not gotten better, but have grown progressively worse. Both believers AND israel are persecuted by others, more and more-this is hardly the new earth, or even the reign of Jesus Christ with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations. I have said it before, and I will say it again, if this is the promised reign of Messiah, it is far more a disappointment than the Bible made it out to be.

UkeleleMike & others - my objection to beginning at the end of 14 chapters was & is that we need to understand contextual questions including - 

Who was Zechariah? When did he prophesy? What was the condition of Israel at the time? Are the prophecies quoted as fulfilled in the NT? In what way do the prophecies relate to the Messiah? 

After the return from exile, led by Zerubbabel & Joshua, according to Ezra, the work of rebuilding the temple had ceased, & the prophets Zechariah & Haggai were commissioned to give the building priority. See Ezra 5 & Haggai. We have therefore a high priest without a temple & a son of David without a kingdom. These are the troublous times Gabriel warns of. (Dan. 9) 

A number of Zechariah's prophecies relate directly to Jesus & his earthly ministry - his entry into Jerusalem, Zec. 9:9 but 9:10 is less obvious. Chapter 10 prophesies a glorious future for Israel; the 30 pieces of silver are prophesied in 11:12-13 in a context that is not easy to interpret. Zec. 12 prophesies a triumphant future for Jerusalem against all nations, 12:10 prophesies the spear piercing the Saviour quoted in John 19:34-37, and the pouring out a spirit of grace & supplications, so they look on him & mourn. This occurred at Pentecost, but could occur again whenever Jews turn to Christ.

Zec. 13 prophesies baptism for sin & uncleanness, the end of prophecy, & the scattering of the disciples when Jesus was captured. Mark 14:27 and the death of 2/3 of the people of the land, & salvation of 1/3 who will then own the covenant relationship: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. 

Thus far precise interpretation relating the events as they are quoted in the Gospel accounts is a challenge. We can see specific events, but the context in Zechariah is a challenge to interpretation. The nations taking hold of a Jew probably indicates the Gospel spread by the Jewish Apostles to all nations according to the great commission. Zec. 8

Zec. 14 obviously concerns Jerusalem, in a condition of horrendous warfare which would not appear to be AD 70. The NT understand of Jerusalem is as a spiritual city, of which believers in Christ are citizens. It is distinct from the earthly city, which at the time of NT writing was shortly to be destroyed according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. 

Zec. 1 sees Jerusalem being rebuilt, by craftsmen who triumph over the horns of the enemy. Zec. 2 sees Jerusalem being a city without walls, with people from many nations be joined to the Lord. When Jesus was asked by the Samaritan woman about which mountain was right for the worship of God, he said neither - true worshippers will worship in spirit & in truth. And the Samaritans recognised Jesus as the Saviour of the world. We see the degraded high priest transformed into Jesus, the great high priest in Zec. 3, & David's son Zerubbabel building the temple by grace in Zec. 4. 

Rebuilding Jerusalem &  the temple is seen by the NT writers in terms of building the church with living stones - Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2. But it's not all straightforward & trouble free. Persecutions & tribulation are prophesied for believers, but the final outcome will be vindication of all God's people. 2 Thes. 1. 

Zec. 14 sees Jerusalem dreadfully suffering until the Lord enters the battle, coming with his saints. So the church has suffered down the ages, faithful unto death, confident in the promised crown of life. No, I can't interpret all the specific details, but over 2,000 years all sorts of dreadful things have been suffered by believers in the Lord Jesus. Now they live & reign with the Lord in glory. 

These things are examples & shadows of the spiritual substance. 

We can specifically apply this using Eph. 6 - put on the whole armour of God so that we can fight the spiritual battles, & having done all to stand. 

Sing with me: Who is on the Lord's side?

 

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Dear Mr. Day,  I certainly did check the scripture you referenced, and it's why I made my last post... stating that I believe many others have refuted your "idea" of what those verses mean in past studies here.  God in fact DID make a NEW way for US (the saved) through Jesus Christ on the cross at calvary.  BUT He also made an OLD covenant with Israel before that.  God keeps His promises!  He made many promises to us for this present church age and for OUR future, but he also made many promises to Israel and God does not go back on His word, (Numbers 23:13). God does not lie!!!  And many of those promises he made directly to Israel (not the church) as were referenced in past posts here. And many have not YET been fulfilled.  I do not doubt one bit that God will, in fact, keep His promises to Israel at a future time.  We are living in the "age of grace" whereby God gave His son Jesus to pay for our sins (1st John 4:10) IF we accept His free gift of salvation.  He dealt entirely different with Israel in the OT days, it was a different dispensation, a different period of time wherein God had a different plan for them.  

To be honest, we should not be proud or boastful of our salvation... we should thank God every day that He allowed us to be grafted in! Romans 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

WHY did we get this opportunity? One reason is to provoke Israel to jealousy, God is not done with Israel... right now we are in an age where Israel is "in part blind" and cannot see the truth that Jesus is the way, truth, life.

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Why do you suppose the word UNTIL is in that verse? The current dispensation is the church age/age of grace and during that time both Jews and Gentiles are being saved through the atoning blood of Jesus.  When that time period is over, and the age of grace/age of the church is over, then God will again turn His attention back to Israel.  

I do not wish to be rude or discourteous... I hope you won't be upset when I tell you that I pray for you often! You are not likely to "change my mind"  and maybe you feel the same way towards me and other here...  but to be honest, I just cannot understand HOW you believe what you believe, when the scriptures referenced throughout this entire topic (preterism) seems so clear to me.  I'm not trying to ridicule you, really I'm not.  I just don't understand how you can't "see it".

 

Ronda, I agree to a point.  Yes till the fullness of the gentiles will come one day and then the Jews will turn to Christ in great number, then "All Israel shall be saved." 

Salvation is not just accepting the free offer of salvation, nor turning to Christ, nor accepting Jesus into your heart. 

It is in realising that you are a foul sinner in the site of an all powerful and holy God who hates sin so much He sent His only begotten sinless son to die the awful death to take our sins on himself, so that if we turn to Him repenting of our sins ans calling on Jesus to save us, He will.

 

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Note to Geneva - I wrote the above without reference to the Geneva Bible notes. I looked them up this morning & find I am in substantial agreement with the notes. 

It's encouraging to know I am in good company.

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Note to Geneva - I wrote the above without reference to the Geneva Bible notes. I looked them up this morning & find I am in substantial agreement with the notes. 

It's encouraging to know I am in good company.

Thank you Ian. The notes are extremely interesting to me, as they do point out that we are not alone in what we percieve.

If some would use their KJB along side with the GB notes, (like some 1700's printers printed), there might be more here that agree with us.

There were several editions of KJV bibles printed with the notes of the Geneva in them.

Someone esteemed them of value.

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Covenanter,

I have some questions concerning your position on your post concerning Preterism or Partial Preterism as you call  your postion. As you were vague in details I cannot comment on all of it. I found out long time ago that Preterists, and others who hold that the book of Revelation is symbolic, are vague in their answers due to that the scriptures are subject to the  whims of the Preterist. Vague answers are evasive answers.

 

The following is a list of literal prophecies and promises given to the nation of Israel and will be fulfilled as the book of Revelation tells us. None of the following prophesies and promises were fulfilled at Calvary. in 70 a.d.,  nor in the New Testament Church Age.

Isaiah 9:6 tells us there will be no end to the Kingdom. The Kingdom will continue throughout eternity.

Isaiah chapter 11 the animal kingdom will be changed among other physical blessings.

Isaiah 24:23 After the horrific happenings listed in Isaiah 24:1-22 the, “... LORD of hosts shall reign in Mt Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

Isaiah chapter 35 tells us of the great physical blessings in the Millennium.

Isaiah 30:18-26

Isaiah chapter 60 tells us that the Lord will not only restore the nation of Israel but He will glorify the nation of Israel. Isaiah 60:12, “For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted.” May I at this juncture remind the Saved Gentiles that the church did not, ‘replace,’ Israel, but the Saved Gentiles are, ‘grafted,’ into the nation of Israel. Romans 11

Isaiah 65:17-25 tells us of the increase of longevity and, ‘... the wolf and the lamb shall feed together...’ see also Zechariah 8:1-8

Ezekiel chapter 47 tells us further great physical changes and blessings.

Hosea 3:5 David will be King over Israel.

Micah 4:1-7 tells us all nations will come to the Millennial Temple.

Zechariah chapter 3 the LORD will take away the filthy garments of the Joshua the High priest in order to serve, ‘... my servant the BRANCH.’ The, BRANCH,’ is the Lord Jesus as KING.

Zechariah 8:21-23 tells us of the restoration of the Jew to international prominence.

Zechariah 9:10 tells us how far the dominion will cover.

Zechariah 12:9-14 tell how the Jews will mourn for the previous unbelief.

Zechariah chapter 14:4-11 and 16-21 tells us of changes of the land and the nations.

Joel 3:18; 2:24-26

 Amos 9:13

Isaiah 55:12 & 13

Psalm 67:6

Alan

Hmm. Not one mention from the NT?

Why not?

Because the nation of Israel, even if it is a nation now, is of no importance in prophecy.

And NO Alan, gentiles are NOT grafted into Israel in Romans 11. They are grafted into Christ!

We are both branches! 

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I found out long time ago that Preterists, and others who hold that the book of Revelation is symbolic, are vague in their answers due to that the scriptures are subject to the  whims of the Preterist. Vague answers are evasive answers.

Alan

Well, Alan, we just don't quite have the imaginations to embellish the scriptures, and make them say a lot of fantastic things, like some do.

^_^

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Genevanpreacher,

If you would read the above verses that I posted you will discover that they relate to the Kingdom of Christ on the earth as depicted in Revelation 20:1-3

And, if you read Revelation 20:1-3 very carefully, you will see that the verses that I posted are indeed fulfilled, literally in Revelation 20:3-6

As Pastor Markle had correctly brought out in numerous occasions if a person honestly, and sincerely, divides the words  of the scripture the above will become very clear.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

As you would not heed the admonition of Pastor Markle, and made light of his admonition, I am of little faith that you will heed my admonition either.

Also, when you said, "Because the nation of Israel, even if it is a nation now, is of no importance in prophecy." You were not expressing the truth of the Old Testament prophets nor the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 11. Oh, by the way, in case you did not know, Romans 11 is in the New Testament. Permit me to quote Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deloiverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Israel is the Natural Olive Tree and the Natural Branches 

Oh, by the way, evidently you are ignorant of a fact of scripture, Israel is referred to as the Olive Tree itself, the root, the firstfruit,  and the natural branches of the Olive Tree.  You, and others who mistakeingly state that there is no prophecy in the New Testament are doctrinally mistaken and believe in unsound doctrine.

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16

Here are some references of Israel being the root of the Olive Tree in the Old Testment:

1 Kings 14:15

2 Kings 19:30

Isiah 37:31 prophesies that the house of Jacob will, in the future, take root as before.

In Isaiah 11:6-16 we have the great prophecy of the restoration of the kingdom of the nation of Israel. In direct reference to the restoration of the kingdom to the nation of Israel we here these prophetic word concerning the, "root." Isaiah 11:10, "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." 

The, 'root of Jesee,' is the Lord Jesus Christ, see Isaiah 11:1, and the Lord Jesus is referred to in Isaiah 11:1 as, "a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." The root of the Branch is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesse, David and their descendents.

The firstfruit of the nation of Israel is Abraham and the prophets. Please take careful notice when the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as the root of Jesse and a Branch of the nation of Israel. The Lump is the saved Jews under the Law and under Grace. The nation of Israel is referred to as the root of the natural Olive Tree.

The Gentiles are Grafted into the Olive Tree

All of the saved Gentiles in the New Testament Age are referred to as the following:

1. A, "wild olive tree,' in Romans 11:17.

2. Belonging to the root, the nation of Israel, Romans 11:19

3. "Wild by nature," in romans 11:24

5. Grafted into the root of nation of Israel: "CONTRARY TO NATURE," Romans 11:24

The Gentiles, every one of us, do not deserve salvation and do not deserve to be grafted in to the nation of Israel because of our filthy, wild, ignorant nature.

Pauls' Conclusion

Inviduals, teachers, Christians (Paul was writing to the brethren), and the heretics of the world who do not believe in the Literal Deliverance and Salvation of the Kingdom of the Nation of Israel are considered ignorant and conceited. "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:24

According to Paul the apostle, the doctrine, and belief, that the church has replaced Israel, and that God will not restore the nation of Israel as prophesied in the Old Testament, and depicted in Revelation 20:3-6, is grounded in their blind conceit and  ignorance.

 

 

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Genevanpreacher,

If you would read the above verses that I posted you will discover that they relate to the Kingdom of Christ on the earth as depicted in Revelation 20:1-3

And, if you read Revelation 20:1-3 very carefully, you will see that the verses that I posted are indeed fulfilled, literally in Revelation 20:3-6

As Pastor Markle had correctly brought out in numerous occasions if a person honestly, and sincerely, divides the words  of the scripture the above will become very clear.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

As you would not heed the admonition of Pastor Markle, and made light of his admonition, I am of little faith that you will heed my admonition either.

Also, when you said, "Because the nation of Israel, even if it is a nation now, is of no importance in prophecy." You were not expressing the truth of the Old Testament prophets nor the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 11. Oh, by the way, in case you did not know, Romans 11 is in the New Testament. Permit me to quote Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deloiverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Israel is the Natural Olive Tree and the Natural Branches 

Oh, by the way, evidently you are ignorant of a fact of scripture, Israel is referred to as the Olive Tree itself, the root, the firstfruit,  and the natural branches of the Olive Tree.  You, and others who mistakeingly state that there is no prophecy in the New Testament are doctrinally mistaken and believe in unsound doctrine.

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16

Here are some references of Israel being the root of the Olive Tree in the Old Testment:

1 Kings 14:15

2 Kings 19:30

Isiah 37:31 prophesies that the house of Jacob will, in the future, take root as before.

In Isaiah 11:6-16 we have the great prophecy of the restoration of the kingdom of the nation of Israel. In direct reference to the restoration of the kingdom to the nation of Israel we here these prophetic word concerning the, "root." Isaiah 11:10, "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." 

The, 'root of Jesee,' is the Lord Jesus Christ, see Isaiah 11:1, and the Lord Jesus is referred to in Isaiah 11:1 as, "a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." The root of the Branch is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesse, David and their descendents.

The firstfruit of the nation of Israel is Abraham and the prophets. Please take careful notice when the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as the root of Jesse and a Branch of the nation of Israel. The Lump is the saved Jews under the Law and under Grace. The nation of Israel is referred to as the root of the natural Olive Tree.

The Gentiles are Grafted into the Olive Tree

All of the saved Gentiles in the New Testament Age are referred to as the following:

1. A, "wild olive tree,' in Romans 11:17.

2. Belonging to the root, the nation of Israel, Romans 11:19

3. "Wild by nature," in romans 11:24

5. Grafted into the root of nation of Israel: "CONTRARY TO NATURE," Romans 11:24

The Gentiles, every one of us, do not deserve salvation and do not deserve to be grafted in to the nation of Israel because of our filthy, wild, ignorant nature.

Pauls' Conclusion

Inviduals, teachers, Christians (Paul was writing to the brethren), and the heretics of the world who do not believe in the Literal Deliverance and Salvation of the Kingdom of the Nation of Israel are considered ignorant and conceited. "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:24

According to Paul the apostle, the doctrine, and belief, that the church has replaced Israel, and that God will not restore the nation of Israel as prophesied in the Old Testament, and depicted in Revelation 20:3-6, is grounded in their blind conceit and  ignorance.

I sure am glad there are plenty of you's to let the rest of us know just what the scriptures really say Alan.

Let's look at Romans 11 Alan and see who is what - 

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

 Who are the broken branches Alan?

Let's slowly, so you can see, backwards into the chapter and see who they are -

 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Who are the them Alan? The branches. How about a little more backwards - 

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Maybe a little more? 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Wait for it... 

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 

Almost there Alan, don't fall asleep yet... 

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them

Looking mighty close now -  

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 

It's a coming! 

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 THERE it is! ISRAEL!

Clearly the branches are the lost and blinded branches, broken off from God, who in human form is - Christ Jesus. 

 

{PS - Alan, I read your verses by the way, and find them not in line with the NT teachings of our Savior Jesus Christ, who WAS God in the OT, too - and as such would have mentioned the importance of the so-called restoration of Israel being important to us now.}

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